IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: The Holy Gospel did not evolve!

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 19 April 2011 at 4:31pm

Dear Honeto,

Are you absolutely sure that you application of meaning to the words of Jesus as quoted in the bible are accurate? I don't believe you are understanding what Jesus meant. You are not considering the context of the verses which you suggest might be in conflict with Christian belief. If you study the context in great depth according to what the Catholic Church has preserved from the teaching of the Apostles, you will find that it all makes sense, and that Jesus truly is the same God as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

But what has this got to do with the evolution of the Holy Bible? I still don't see any evidence from you that the Holy Bible has evolved. Are you admitting by your silence that the Holy Bible never truly did evolve? that the Holy Bible is exactly what Jesus said and did, and what he taught the Apostles to teach to all Christians everywhere for all time?

God Bless you,

Jack Catholic

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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 19 April 2011 at 4:54pm

To Jack Catholic

Another scholarly debate between Yusuf Ismail and Dr. David Seccombe

"The Christian-Muslim Approach to the New Testament-Word of God or development of man? "

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

Part 6

Part 7

Part 8

Part 9

Part 10

Part 11

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 19 April 2011 at 7:44pm

Dear Mansoor_Ali

Thanks again for the debate references. These are awsome. I like them because I can listen to them while I do my other work.

God Bless you, Mansoor_Ali!!!

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Mansoor_ali
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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 11:48am

Thanks Jack.I will keep quoting those debates which have been among top class debaters.All my debates circulate around Authenticity of Bible.

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semar

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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 2:11pm

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear Semar,

You seem to try to discredit my explanation about why the 4 Gospels are written the way they are. I know that I am right because the letters written by the bishops of the time of St. John the Apostle's last days began writing letters about the problems they were having in the care of the believers of thier time. What I say is historically accurate as to why St. John wrote yet another account of the life of Jesus, and why it is so different from the previous three.

Yet when you say that the most important issues should have been written first, I cannot say that I blame you for saying it. In fact, the reason why Christianity spread so quickly over the world is that people did precisely what you are saying they should have done. Whenever a person came to a realization of who Jesus was and opened himself up to a personal relationship with Jesus (through prayer, obedience, study, and good works based upon almsgiving and fasting), he became filled with the Spirit of God. He would become overwhelmed by that Holy Spirit in all aspects of his life, and many of the problems he had had with others, with family, and with life all around dissappeared. Others might ask him about the joy he experienced even in the midst of suffering. What is the reason for his joy, or the change in his life, others would ask. At that moment, the person would share who he had just met, who Jesus really was, and what Jesus had done in his life to transform it. I can attest to this even now as a modern Christian. I know many Christians who can also. There is no greater witness to the truth of the christian faith or of Jesus Christ in the Gospels than a changed life. The bible was written to help us know Jesus and who he was. It was written to help us know God the Father better, and to recognize and desire the Holy spirit to be present in our hearts and lives. I offer praise and thanksgiving daily for all that God has done for me through Jesus Christ as a Catholic. I hope and pray that one day you might be able to put asside some of the missunderstandings preached by Islam and come to know Allah as I know him. Perhaps you might see life differently... Who knows...

May God Bless you always,

Jack Catholic

But again it's too worthy "Jesus son of God" to be missed from the gospel for that long. It's a super magical word that will move anybody heart right away. Like you guys preach this day it's featured the first thing in your speaches, flyer, brochure etc. It's a clear indication that's just a fabricated story that added to the bible.

(My middle schooler daugter just got a flyer the other day from somebody that distributed it at school, I didn't understand how it's posible, it's a public school. Anyway, on the flyer, as usual "Jesus Son of God the savior, featured on the first pages).

Salam/Peace,
Semar
The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"
"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"

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honeto

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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear Honeto,

God Bless you,

Jack Catholic

Jack,

are you kidding me, you got to be deaf to think I am quiet or haven't you read my posts dear.

Look you do quite opposite to what the Bible teaches but you still find excuses and try to find other meanings while the obvious and clear meanings don't mean anything. I am refering to carving images and putting them in places of worship, kneeling to them and so on. Do you obey to the ten commandments, do you really? How do you dodge them then?

And please don't talk about Catholic Church, I know a little bit about its over five centuries of Mafia style terror that stretched accross the world, not just to Spain after its reconquest from Muslims. So, please don't open my mouths about its history. I admit that for about a century it has been trying to improve its image by extensive social and public work and charity. But all of that still cannot erase what it purpetrated for so many centuries by brutally eliminating anyone who resisted or questioned its authority.

The reason for my conclusion that the Bible evolved or altered through time is simple. Gospel or Torah for example were originally God's word. And I believe that God's word is never inconsistant or contradictory to His Godhood. If we through examination find them (OT and NT) to be inconsistant or contradictory is not because God is so, rather that in human hands it has been altered or evolved. Simple as that.

So in order to prove this, we need to pick any major issue first and see if that is the case. We have so far seen that there are several issues that show us that it did infact evolved or been altered. Issue of God for example is one of such. The Bible as a whole is inconsistent about God, who is He, and His abilities.

Hasan

39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 3:35pm

Dear semar,

You example of data that was missing from the Holy Bible until it was added later (evidence of evolving and then tampering with the Holy Bible) is calling Jesus the Son of God. I'm printing verses that show both that indeed the gospel writers did include the most important information first, and that your assertion is not a valid argument).

You said, "...it's too worthy "Jesus son of God" to be missed from the gospel for that long. It's a super magical word that will move anybody heart right away. It's a clear indication that's just a fabricated story that added to the bible."

Here are the verses that show that this bit of data was both included in the beginning of the Gospels, and that it was present in all four gospels regardless of when each was written.

Matthew 16:16
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Matthew 27:54
When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified, and exclaimed, “Surely he was the Son of God!”

Mark 1:1
[ John the Baptist Prepares the Way ] The beginning of the good news about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God,

Mark 1:11
And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.”

Mark 5:7
He shouted at the top of his voice, “What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? In God’s name don’t torture me!”

Luke 1:32
He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

Luke 1:35
The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

John 1:49
Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the king of Israel.”

John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

There you have it. Still no clear evidence has been provided prooving that the Holy Bible's content evolved over time. Do you have any other evidence?

God Bless you,

Jack Catholic

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Jack Catholic
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Posted: 20 April 2011 at 4:16pm

Dear Honeto,

I assure you that Catholics DO NOT worship immages. Allah in the Torah also does not forbid the making of images accept for the purpose of worshiping them instead of Himself.

What has the history of the Catholic Church got to do with whether or not the Holy Bible evolved as a document?

About inconsistancy between the New Testament and the Torah, I was presenting the Muslim assertion that the New Testament evolved over time and that this was the evidence that the News Testament was not fully the Word of God. In order to prove your case you would have to show what in the New Testament was consistant with the Torah, and how in the earlier writings of the New Testament there was consistancey, but in later writings of the New Testament on the same topic the inconsistancy/change is clear. What do you think?

God Bless you,

Jack Catholic

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