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Jack Catholic
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Topic: The Holy Gospel did not evolve!
    Posted: 05 April 2011 at 11:14pm
Dear Muslim and Christian Brothers and all others interested in this topic,
 
In listening to a Christian-Muslim debate between Sam Shamoun and Shabir Ally on the internet, I heard a Muslim assertion about the corruption of the Holy Bible that was not addressed, but for which I know the answer, being Catholic and all.  I want to share this with you all so that there will be no doubt about whether or not the Holy Bible has been corrupted.
 
Mr. Ally asserted that the earliest of the four Gospels in the Holy Bible do not make the same claim as the oldest written by the Apostle John. Those claims are as follows:
 
1  "I and the Father are one."
2  "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
3  "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believs in him shall not parish but have everlasting life."
 
Mr. Ally from these asked why these assertions were not included in the earliest of the 4 Gospels.  One would think that if Jesus had said them, they would have been preached since the beginning.  But in fact (says Mr. Ally) the story of Jesus was evolving, rolling around like a snowball, growing and changing as it passed from mouth to mouth untill Jesus was made out to be God himself.
 
I listened to this assertion of Mr. Ally and had to laugh.  I know for certain that at the time of Jesus it was not uncommon to make a statement in part and trust that all listeners would know the full statement automatically.  When Jesus was crucified on the cross, for example, he said, "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me."  These words have been claimed by Muslims to be evidence that Jesus and the Father are not the same God.  But the truth is that the statement is actually the first line of Psalm 22, and that Jesus was not speaking as one seperate from the Father, but rather was letting all Jews attending his crucifixion know that his life was fullfilling Psalm 22.
 
In the same way, the first Gospels of the Life of Jesus were written to communities that already knew that Jesus was the Son of God, and was in fact God Himself.  It was only some 70 years after the death of Jesus on the Cross that new Christians from throughout the world who had not known Jesus first hand were not getting the full story of Jesus and his message due to the full message not having been written down yet. Thus St. John the Apostle saw the need to write down what the first hand witnesses knew and took for granted that all believers in the first decades also knew.  This is the Gospel of John, not the Gospel of Luke written by a convert doctor who collected stories, but a Gospel written by the very hand of an Apostle carefully taught and trained by Jesus himself.  This paragraph which I have just written is not conjecture but is truth, the historic reason that the Gospel of John was written as it was.  This fact is reflected in the letters of the Christian bishops and preachers of the Apostel John's lifetime.
 
The idea that the Gospels of the life of Jesus and the beliefs about Jesus evolved in the way that a snow ball grows is an attempt by non-Christians to explain the differences between a Holy book written 600 years after the life of Jesus and a Holy book written by the teachers trained by Jesus himself.  The idea is an attempt to discredit those trained teachers and so justify the inaccuracies in the Holy Book written 600 years late.
 
I respectfully challange my non-Christian brothers to disproove my assertion here.  Please do not take offense at my provocative attempt to challange My Muslim brothers.  I am not wanting to disrepsect their Islamic faith or my wonderful Muslim Brothers themselves, but I am challanging a widly held missunderstanding of the Holy Bible regarding what appears to be changes over time.
 
Thanks in advance for responding to my challange.
 
Asalaam Alekum
 


Edited by Jack Catholic - 05 April 2011 at 11:19pm
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Quote semar Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2011 at 11:04am
Originally posted by Jack Catholic

In the same way, the first Gospels of the Life of Jesus were written to communities that already knew that Jesus was the Son of God, and was in fact God Himself.  It was only some 70 years after the death of Jesus on the Cross that new Christians from throughout the world who had not known Jesus first hand were not getting the full story of Jesus and his message due to the full message not having been written down yet.  
 
I have repectfully disagree/ To me this is ver funy arguments. The bigest thing about Jesus is being the son of God (asume this is correct). Again this is the most unique, the most important, the most exciting for human to see a son of god. So if you are a reporter you will rush this story and put in the front page, with big-big heading, no reporter will delay this "huge-huge story, huge-huge event". You can ask any jurnalist, no one will not delay this story even in a day or two, of course not 70 years.


Edited by semar - 08 April 2011 at 11:06am
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Quote truthnowcome Replybullet Posted: 08 April 2011 at 10:17pm

Originally posted by Jack Catholic

Dear Muslim and Christian Brothers and all others interested in this topic,

In listening to a Christian-Muslim debate between Sam Shamoun and Shabir Ally on the internet, I heard a Muslim assertion about the corruption of the Holy Bible that was not addressed, but for which I know the answer, being Catholic and all. I want to share this with you all so that there will be no doubt about whether or not the Holy Bible has been corrupted.

Mr. Ally asserted that the earliest of the four Gospels in the Holy Bible do not make the same claim as the oldest written by the Apostle John. Those claims are as follows:

1 "I and the Father are one."

2 "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."
3 "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believs in him shall not parish but have everlasting life."

Mr. Ally from these asked why these assertions were not included in the earliest of the 4 Gospels. One would think that if Jesus had said them, they would have been preached since the beginning. But in fact (says Mr. Ally) the story of Jesus was evolving, rolling around like a snowball, growing and changing as it passed from mouth to mouth untill Jesus was made out to be God himself.

I listened to this assertion of Mr. Ally and had to laugh. I know for certain that at the time of Jesus it was not uncommon to make a statement in part and trust that all listeners would know the full statement automatically. When Jesus was crucified on the cross, for example, he said, "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me." These words have been claimed by Muslims to be evidence that Jesus and the Father are not the same God. But the truth is that the statement is actually the first line of Psalm 22, and that Jesus was not speaking as one seperate from the Father, but rather was letting all Jews attending his crucifixion know that his life was fullfilling Psalm 22.

 

I respectfully challange my non-Christian brothers to disproove my assertion here. Please do not take offense at my provocative attempt to challange My Muslim brothers. I am not wanting to disrepsect their Islamic faith or my wonderful Muslim Brothers themselves, but I am challanging a widly held missunderstanding of the Holy Bible regarding what appears to be changes over time.

 

Thanks in advance for responding to my challange.

 

Asalaam Alekum

Hi Mr. Jack, I am not sure of the changes overtime; what I am more certain is the original language of the writings of the disciples should be in their mother thong and not Greek some 90 years later after the Romans destroyed the Jerusalem and the temple in the year 70AD.

As for your evidence in Psalm22 to prove Jesus went on the cross is a big joke.

Psalm 22

Who is talking there? I suppose is David. He said: 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

2O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

All those “MY” refers to who? David! David is in trouble and he is calling on God Almighty. I don’t see how Jesus (S) fit in there.

He said: 6But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.”

Did Jesus (S) said, “But I am a worm, and no man” when he was on the cross? If the statement “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” applies to Jesus’ sayings then that statement also should apply.

David said:

Ø  11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Ø  12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

Ø  13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Who were these strong “bulls of Bashan” that beset around Jesus (S)?

tnc

LET'S SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ONCE AND FOR ALL...NO MORE LIES!
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2011 at 9:20am

 To Jack Catholic

 I recommend you to watch a more scholarly debate between Shabir Ally and Dr.James White:

 “Is the New Testament as it exists today the inspired word of God?”

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvqq6A7l-qQ&feature=related

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsdgAyhsjzg&feature=related

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxja3mrrxKQ&feature=watch_response

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqetcw6DZoU&feature=watch_response

 

 



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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2011 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by truthnowcome

Who were these strong “bulls of Bashan” that beset around Jesus (S)?


Hi TNC, they were demons that surrounded the cross as he was being crucified.   I will clarify, why the Bashan reference? ...

Demons are the disembodied spirits of Nephilim and Rephilim when they die.    Nephilim and rephilim were the offspring of the fallen angels (who put off their heavenly bodies) and earth women.    It started  in Genesis before the flood and it says in the bible also after the flood.

God told Abraham that his descendants would go out of the land and come back after 400 years.  

God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years." Genesis 15:13

Satan, hearing that same prophecy, during the 400 years of the Israelites' absence, had his angels set about to repopulate the land with rephilim, to hinder the children of Israel from being able to return.    That there were giants in the land is recorded when the children of Israel having been set free from Egypt, were about to re-enter the land.    They were afraid and said that comparatively speaking, they were as grasshoppers to the inhabitants of giants that backfilled when they were in Egypt.

It is also why God instructed the children of Israel to completely wipe out certain groups, men, women, and children - which without knowing that those were all rephilim, makes God of the bible to appear cruel.    But God had a reason to wipe out those groups, similar that He also destroyed all mankind, except Noah and his family, by the flood.

Anyway, back to the bulls of Bashan.   Bashan was one of the centers where the rephilim (giants) lived.      In the bible, Og king of Bashan, was king of the Amorites.    Og was one of the rephilim giants.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Og%2C_King_of_Bashan


Dt 3:1: "Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei." Dt 3:2: "The LORD said to me, "Do not be afraid of him, for I have handed him over to you with his whole army and his land. Do to him what you did to Sihon king of the Amorites, who reigned in Heshbon." Dt 3:3: "So the LORD our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors." Dt 3:4: "At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og's kingdom in Bashan." Dt 3:5:"All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages." Dt 3:6: "We completely destroyed [a] them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children."

When Jesus was crucified, Satan took part (entering Judas) because he was thinking that by killing Jesus it would stop the kingdom of God from being established here on earth.   Keep in mind, the disciples, the religious leaders, and the common people had the preconceived idea that the messiah, based on ot prophecies, would be King Messiah, some one like king David who would overthrow the Jews oppressors.   And that theme is found in the four gospels starting when the wise men came from the East to give presents to the new-born king.    Herod got wind of it, and fearing that he would lose his kingship, had all of the babies under the age of 2 killed.   And in Luke 19 when Jesus entered Jerusalem riding the donkey, he was hailed as King Messah, son of David.

So the whole notion was that Jesus was the coming King Messiah , not Save us from our sins Messiah.   They had no idea that he was God's Save-us-from our sins Messiah.    That's why the disciples were all disappointed when Jesus was crucified.   Their hope that he was the (King) messiah were dashed - because they didn't realize Jesus's prime mission.   It was a secret from all of humanity, including Satan and the demons.    So as Jesus hung on the cross, with the sign "King of the Jews" nailed there at the instruction of pilate, Satan and the demons (the bulls of Bashan) surrounded the cross, thinking they had stopped the kingdom of God, by killing the King.

In 1corinthians2:7-8, it says that the gospel, salvation from our sins by Jesus's death and resurrection, was kept as a mystery.     Had Satan and the demons realized God's plan was to free us from the power of sin (which Satan knew of and deceived Adam and Eve to eat from the forbidden tree) would be destroyed through the crucified Christ, they would not have par-taked in getting Jesus crucified.

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The bulls of Bashan (the location of Og and the rephilim) were demons.


Doug L.


Edited by Douggg - 09 April 2011 at 6:05pm
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Quote IssaEl999 Replybullet Posted: 09 April 2011 at 4:03pm
 Many Christians claim that verse of Psalms were written by Jesus , Yet how can a man at his point of death , And think about quoting quotes of someone else ? Or are you saying that when Jesus came into the world , he was Prophesied to say the same statement of David's Crucifixion as mentioned in Psalms 22 ; 1 , When Davis  States ; ... My God ( El ) , My God ( El ) , Why Has Thou  < Awzab > ( Forsaken ) Me ? ... It is the same statement that Jesus si - called states on the cross in Mathew 27 ; 46 , Where He States ; Eli , Eli , Lama ( Why ) Sabachthani ( Forsaken Me ) ? That Is To Say My God ( Thehos ) , My God ( Thehos ) , Why Hast Thou Forsaken ( Engkatalipo ) Me ? '' The story of Jesus ' Crucifixion  as fabricated by Christians was a replica of the true story of David's Crucifixion .  Now David  was Crucified ( Mark 2 ; 25 ) because he was a tyrant , which caused him to lose the respect of his people ; He danced in the street Naked ( 2Samuel 6 ; 14 - 16 ) ; Got Uriah , Bathsheba 's husband killed  ( 2Samuel 12 ; 9 ) , And of his intense Homosexual Involement with Saul's son Jonathan ( 2Samuel 20 ; 41 ) Where It States ; '' ..... They Cried Together And They Kissed One Another ... '' Davids downfall was disobeying the commandment of Yahuwa given to Abraham and his seed not to marry the daughter of The Canaanites in Genesis 24 ; 3 and marrying Bathsheba ,
 
A Canaanite , Daughter of Eliam , Which resulted in Solomon being a Mulatto , Or as they describe him in Song Of Solomon 5 ; 14 , As having a complexion which is clear to be ivory and his hair in The Song Of Solomon 5 ; 11 , Is black but like that of a Raven which would be straight hair , Not wolly . They refer to him back in Song Of Solomon 5 ; 10  , As White ( Tsakh ) and Ruddy ( Awdome ) , Which means ' Reddish ' Eliam the father of Bathsheba  was a Gilonite , From the children of Heth as mentioned in Genesis 23 ; 5 , Who were from The Canaanite Tribes that lived in and around Henron . David  committed adultery with Bathsheba and sent her husband Uriah to the front line to be Killed ( 2Samuel 11 ; 14 - 15 ) .  Now David was Crucified , ( And Make Note Of The Similarity In Jesus ' So Called Crucifixion , ) And by the way the concept for Crucifixion was taken from The Egyptian by The Romans  As mentioned in El's Holy Qur'aan 45 ; 71 Where The Pharaoh States ; '' And I Will Have You Crucified On Trunks  Of Palm Trees '' . David was also Crucified on a tree as the custom of The Israelites  according to Deuteronomy 21 ; 22 ; 23 . Which States , That a man that has committed a sin and is hung ( Taelaw ) On a Tree ( Ates - ) , Is cursed of Eloheem , And this Aramic ( Hebrew ) word for Tree ( Ates or Arsa - ) Is the same word used in Genesis 2 ; 9  For the Tree ( Ates - ) Of Good ( Tobe ) and Evil ( Rah )  Which Qadmon / Adam and Kekaybaw / Eve partook of , The Ashuric Syriac ( Arabic ) word is 'Asaa Meaning '' Stick' ,
 
And we know that Jesus was not cursed for what he did at it states in John 19 ; 4 and Luke 23 ; 14 , But David was accursed for what he did . David was Crucified at 12 ; 00 Noon on The Sabbath , And Jesus was supposedly Crucified at The Six Hour  ( John 19 ; 14 ) . In Psalms 22 ; 16 , It States ; '' ... They Pierced ( Qawraw ) My Hands ( Yawd ) And My Feet ( Rehgel ) ... This would also apply to Jesus As mentioned in John 19 ; 37   , Where It States ; '' And Again Another Scripture Saith , They Shall Look On Him Whom They Pierced , '' .... And as you can see it's even clearer in Psalms than it is in John , Because they literally declare they piereced my hands and my feet , Rather than just they pierced him , While Christians proudly parade The Crucifixion of a man pierced in his hands and his feet . So if you didn't have that Psalms 22 ; 16 , How would the artist have decided where he was pierced ? In Psalms 22 ; 18 It States ; '' They Part My Garments Amongst Them , And Cast Lots Upon My Vesture . ''
 
And it is also supposedly of Jesus In Matthew 27 ; 35 , Where It States ; ... And Parted His Garment , Casting Lots ; ... They Parted My Garment Among Then , And Upon My Vesture Did They Cast Lots , '' ;.... You Can See Clearly That This Was Taken From Psalms . With the last breath , David Said '' I Thirst '' , And Jesus Said In John 19 ; 28 ; '' .... I Thirst '' . In Psalms 69 ; 21 , David was given vinegar , Where It States ; '' They Gave Me Also Gall ( Rowsh ) For My Meat ( Bawrooth ) ; And In My Thirst They Gave Me Vinegar ( Khomets ) To Drink ) '' ;.....  Which is exactly what they copied and said that Jesus said in Matthew 27 ; 34 , Where It States ; '' They Gave Him Vinegar ( Ozos ) To Drink Mingled With Gall ( Kholay ) ;.... The above quotes in The New Testament are taken drrectly from The Psalms . It is clear that the Christian Crucifixion story was really The Crucifixion of David .
 
The soma drink given to David enabled a death like state for serveral days and to awaken afterwards into an exhilarated state that lasted a few more days . after David was given the soma , They assumed that he was dead , So they did not break his legs . This is also mentioned about Jesus in John 19 ; 33 Where It States ; When They Came To Jesus , And Saw That He Was Dead Already , They Brake Not His Legs ,'' ;..... David was pierced in his side by Noosoo with a Hasta as mentioned in Pdalms 22 ; 14  I Am Poured Out Like Water '' , ;..... Which is exactly the same adopred story of Jesaus in John 19 ; 34 , Where It Says ; '' But One Of The Soldiers With A Spear Pierced His Side , And Forthwith Came There Out Blood And Waater '' ;..... Thus , The point remains that this is not a recording of Jesus so-called Crucifixion , But the actual Crucifixion of David after he committed his Homo -Sexual act with Saul's son Jonathan as found in 1Samuel 20 ; 41 , In fact Jesus was not Crucified ,


Edited by IssaEl999 - 09 April 2011 at 4:05pm
El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .
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Quote IssaEl999 Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:37am

Did Saul , Shaool , Paul's Gentiles Really Believe Yashu'a , Isa , Jesus Was The Father And Son ?

El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .
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Quote Jack Catholic Replybullet Posted: 10 April 2011 at 3:57pm

Dear Semar, truthnowcome, and Mansoor_ali,

 

I have been a reporter for a newspaper before.  I know all about reporting news in a hurry before any other newspaper gets the information printed, and about putting the most important information in the first two paragraphs.  The concept of newspaper writing as you and I know it is only about 150 years old.  2000 years ago, there was not publishing of news papers, or television news teams.  The standard of news reporting in our day did not exist back then, and therefore does not apply.   Sorry...

As for the orriginal language of the disciples, it is well known that in Jerusalem were spoken Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek.  Jews living in communities outside of Israel spoke mainly Greek.  What was written by the Apostles and disciples was written for all Jews and Christians everywhere, not just those residing in Israel.  Jesus came for ALL Jews, Christians, and gentiles interested in Christianity.  The best language to reach them all was Greek.  Not many non-Muslims accept the language argument that you and many other Muslims keep asserting.  We rather laugh at the imaginings that the language of the oldest manuscripts would be an issue for anyone today...

I did not mention that Psalm 22 proved that "Jesus went on the cross."  Perhaps you might consider going back to reread what I wrote to know why I even mentioned Psalm 22 to begin with.  Be sure you understand what you are reading before you attempt to argue with it...

 

Thank you for the debate websights, Mansoor_ali.  I do enjoy listening to these.  I do not, however, consider Dr. James White to be an "excellent scholar," as he often argues against Catholicism from the perspective of his personal misunderstandings of what Catholics actually believe.

I've noticed that nobody has as of yet argued convincingly that the message of the New Testament developed over time.  So my challange to the Muslim assertion leaves remaining the Christian belief that its message always existed unchanged since the life of Jesus.  I assert that the Christian belief held since the beginning of the first century AD is the only correct one, and as so, Muslims have one more reason why any Holy Books written 600 years later cannot be accuratly true.

Well, God bless you all,

Jack Catholic



Edited by Jack Catholic - 10 April 2011 at 4:03pm
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