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Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

   I know that Jesus was not crucified on the cross.

 
 
How do you know?
Because a man named Muhammad said so?
and how do you know that Muhammad is not the liar?


I know because God Himself tells me that the blessed Messiah was not crucified on the cross.

Sahih International
And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise. 4:157-8

A man named Muhammed (pbuh) didn't say so. You wouldn't understand because you lack faith.

I know Muhammed is not a liar because of my faith. I believe that Muhammed (pbuh)received revelations from God through the Archangel Gabriel (AS).


I do not lack faith...
only in your Muhammad.
God did not tell you these things,
Muhamamad did.
You have faith in Muhammad.

I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 11:54am
Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.



Hmm, I wonder....
this made me think.

If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2012 at 6:48pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

there is no evidence or eye witnesses to the experience Paul had on the road to Damascus.

 And we all know about the inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems, don't we?


Addressing the first... regarding Paul;

And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.

And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

21 But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?

22 But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus...


While the men that were with him on the road be not named... obviously someone had to lead him into Damascus.

Ananais is named as having healed Paul's eyes, which testifies to his blindness, and his calling.

So here we have witnesses.  Surely this would be an easily verifiable history by the Roman's who had sent him to Damascus for a different purpose.  (And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.)


As to the second - "inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems"

You mean like the worshiping at the Kabba that the pagans did long before Muhammad came along with the religion of Islam?  Like the inclusion of the Jinn in the word Muhammad 'revealed' from god?  Yes culture and religion always influence one another.

God cares what is in the heart.  He cares that one believes in Him and that love leads them to do His will.  He cares less for the outward adherence to law, which is why Jesus spoke so frequently against the Pharisees.  The only law, being the one that matters, is that we have Love. 

Why would God care about anything else?  Does God require anything of us?  Does He need anything from us.  No.  He is the Creator of all.  God gives us His law to follow for our own good, because of His love for us.  When we choose not to follow we hurt Him by creating hurt to ourselves.  If we love, then we choose not to wound.
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:40am
Originally posted by Caringheart

As to the second - "inter-mixing of the faith the pagan systems"

You mean like the worshiping at the Kabba that the pagans did long before Muhammad came along with the religion of Islam?  Like the inclusion of the Jinn in the word Muhammad 'revealed' from god?  Yes culture and religion always influence one another.


 
Peter was the chosen disciple of Jesus (pbuh) to preach to the people after he was gone. Paul came to Jerusalem and overthrew the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh) and started a new religion all by himself.
 
As I said in another thread, prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) built the Ka'ba in Mecca with his son Ishmael and the worship system that was instigated was how God wanted it to be. Then through the ages it disintegrated to idol worship culminating in about 360 idols being placed inside the Ka'ba at the time of prophet Muhammed. This is the very same reason why God wanted to destroy the idols and re-establish monotheism as started by prophet Ibrahim (pbuh).
 
Islam is the only religion in the world where true monotheism is perfected. As I have said repeatedly, it was ordered by God Almighty through the angel Jibril (AS).
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.

Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?




"Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
Al-Baqarah
(10) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
(11) When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
(12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
(13) When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

(15) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
(16) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
(17) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

(18) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).
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Quote iec786 Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:50am
I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.



PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2012 at 3:05pm
Originally posted by iec786

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by iec786

not one ever disputed his truthfulness.

Hmm, I wonder....this made me think.If no one disputed his truthfulness would not all Jews and Christians in the territory have become followers of Muhammad?


"Ye hypocrites . . ." MATTHEW 23:13
"Ye wicked and adulterous generation . . ." MATTHEW 16:4
"Ye whited sepulchres . . ." MATTHEW 23:27
"Ye generation of vipers . . ." MATTHEW 23:33
Al-Baqarah
(10) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).
(11) When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"
(12) Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.
(13) When it is said to them: "Believe as the others believe:" They say: "Shall we believe as the fools believe?" Nay, of a surety they are the fools, but they do not know.
(14) When they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe;" but when they are alone with their evil ones, they say: "We are really with you: We (were) only jesting."

(15) Allah will throw back their mockery on them, and give them rope in their trespasses; so they will wander like blind ones (To and fro).
(16) These are they who have bartered Guidance for error: But their traffic is profitless, and they have lost true direction,
(17) Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.

(18) Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path).



This doesn't really answer what I posted.  If all were convinced of Muhammad's truthfulness then all would have followed Muhammad.

What it does address however is the fact that we believe the same(Muhammad took from the Christian teaching so it would be the same).  We both believe that man can be blinded to God's truth.  The difference is Jesus did not say to kill those who you believe to be blind.  He did not say to 'kill those who do not believe in Me'.  This is where Muhammad 'changed the Word of God' as was prophesied.
You believe Paul changed the Word of God.  I do not see that.  I see that the testimony of many men from the time(not one man) are in agreement, and in agreement with the prophesies from before Jesus.

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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2012 at 3:49pm
Originally posted by iec786

I have faith in the testimony of a great many eyewitnesses and the word of many men inspired by God who are in agreement one with another.

PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16


Greetings Ismail,

I am glad to have these questions.  They challenge me to think seriously about my own faith.  They also allow me(through God's leading) to show how the scriptures can be misunderstood if not studied properly.
Just as some on these forums have helped me to see where I misunderstand some of the Quran'ic writing.  We must know how it is the people understand their scriptures to mean, so that we may understand what it is that the people follow.

These which you quote only confirm what I have said... that I am pleased to have the testimony of many men and not just one.  Yes, this is a disturbing statement of Paul's but reading it in context...
Does it anywhere in the context explain what this comment means? 
Let's examine the context of what Paul is saying.
13 For what is it wherein ye were inferior to other churches, except it be that I myself was not burdensome to you? forgive me this wrong.
15 And I will very gladly spend and be spent for you; though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved.
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
17 Did I make a gain of you by any of them whom I sent unto you?
He is saying that he required nothing of them and it was through the witness of his own self sacrifice that they were won over.
12 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory.
6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents,
I recommend a study of the whole chapter.
13 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
2 Corinthians 13

Salaam,
Caringheart

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