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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Uighur
 
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bullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 8:33pm
#however u have got wat i am trying to say...#


Brother Asda ,sadly you are not got wat i am trying to say ... because you are trying too hard to express yourself. Why not got little time to think over what i am trying to say? In different ways I am trying to make my concern clear but you are answering me with something else  ... just walking around topic but never come it...

Ok ,let us discuss it again but  differently .........

From this post it seams you are saying  history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is part of Islamic constitution right ? So It would be wrong of me if i treat it as case ...right ? . So history of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is not case that one must be bring to court but extremely important part of  Islamic constitution .In this pretext it is nonsense to treat AHLEL BAYT (a.s) as suject to constitution ..
If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of  Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady  Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring , lady  Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because  lady  Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?If Abdurahman had a  argument with Caliphate Osman ,ti would be most wise idea for Abdurahman to invite lady  Fatima to be judge since lady  Fatima's word won't be wrong ? What if lady  Fatima had  different opinion with her son ?








Edited by Uighur - 02 November 2008 at 8:56pm
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2008 at 4:50am

this is because the conflicts of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were related to Islam...
 
How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions. . .You can also say that the only 'importance' they hold is historical i.e. such and such thing happened. Full stop. What I dont understand is, why are they portrayed as the be all and end all of Islam by the Shiite community? i.e. why the need to create a Firqa over a polictical conflict??? These issues have nothing to do with Islam per se. . . and what I mean by that is - they do not effect the amaal or intentions etc of Muslim Ummah after that. So why drag the issue along for centuries?
 
 
 
these conflicts are part of interpretation of quran and also involves a study into constitutions of quran and explaination of hadeeth....so..in all...all of these are important....in other ways...ure above query is something like:
"is it important to study the quran or the words of the Prophet???"

 
How are these conflicts part of the interpretation of the Quran? and hadeeth? I think brother/sister Uighur has a valid point, i.e. what relevance does the issue have with practise of Islam today, and us bieng good muslims? We should treat is as a piece of history - and try to learn from it - learn what? To be unified, and not create fitna and rifts etc. And to focus on the larger picture i.e. qiyamat, amaal, good of muslim ummah etc. Not focus on trivial/petty issues.



i can judge between the conflicts related to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...
 
How so? What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? (All the sahaba involved in that issue were esteemed ones...  You were not even present at the time, u heard handed down accounts/versions of the conflict, how does that that make you - or me - for that matter, eligible to pass judgements on who was right and who was wrong? I think that is grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan - and leads us astray i.e. we start worrying about irrelevant issues, and forget the bigger picture. This is what the Bani Israel used to do. . . focus on the little, irrelevant things - rather than Allah's compulsory commands. Thats what Surah Baqarah is all about.
 
We should leave everything to Allah - to decide... and judge. No need to take Allah's job on us, and start passing judgements on who was right and wrong.



 




Edited by Chrysalis - 03 November 2008 at 4:51am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2008 at 2:11pm
Bro Uighur I am sorry to see you are not getting anywhere with the shill! As you can see the areas of irreconcilability are so many that you might as well give up your creed to be friends with this lot!
GLORIOUS QUR'AN
         
Ahle Sunnah                               Shi'ites
                                                 
There is unanimous agreement        To some of them, the Qur'an's
among them regarding its            authenticity is doubtful, and if it
authenticity, and its text being    appears to contradict any of their
safeguarded from any additions      sectarian beliefs or doctrines, then
or deletions. The Qur'an is to be   they give the Qur'anic text
understood in consonance with       strange, far-fetched interpretations
the rules and bases of the Arabic   that agree with their sectarian
language. They believe in every     views. They love to draw attention
single letter of it, it being the   to the discord that occurred at the 
word of Allah the Exalted. The      time when the Qur'an was first
Qur'an is neither temporal nor      compiled. The views and opinions 
newly created, but is eternal.      that they falsely attribute to the 
Falsehood does not approach it      Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayt are the primary
from before it or behind it. It     source of their jurisprudence.
is the primary source of all the         
Muslims' tenets of faith, their     
rites and rules of conduct.        
 
                  AHAADEETH (THE PROPHETIC TRADITIONS)
 
              Sunnis                               Shi'ite
 
For the Sunnis, it is the second       The Shi'ites reject all Prophetic
source of revealed law, com-           Traditions which were not related
plementary to the Noble Quran          by members of Ahlu-l-Bayt, or their
It is not permissible to contradict    descendants. The only exception
or reject the rulings and direc-       to this rule is their acceptance of 
tives contained in those               a few ahaadeeth narrated by those
ahaadeeth which are reliably at-       who sided with 'Ali (may Allah be
tributed to the Prophet (may           pleased with him) in his political
Allah's blessings and peace be         wars. They do not attend to the
upon him). The methodology ap-         authenticity and soundness of the
plied in determining the authen-       chain of narrators, nor do they ap-
ticity of these traditions utilizes a  approach the study of the Prophetic
set of stringent rules agreed upon     Traditions with a scientific 
by the scholars who specialize in      attitude. Their narrations often ap-
this field, and involves a detailed    pear in a form like that of the
analysis of the chain of transmit-     following example: "It has been
ters of any given tradition. No        reported regarding Muhammad
distinction is made between            bin Isma'eel by way of some of
male and female narrators; judg-       our friends through a man who
ment is made solely on the basis       transmitted it from him ['Ali] that
of individual trustworthiness and      he said...". Their books are filled
technical ability in relating tradi-   with hundreds of thousands of
tions, and every narrator's            traditions whose authenticity can-
history is recorded. No tradition      not be confirmed. They have built
is accepted from a known liar, or      their religion specifically upon
from one whose morals or               these spurious texts while outright
scholarly ability were not cor-        rejecting over three quarters of the
roborated, or from anyone,             authentic Prophetic Traditions.
merely on the basis of his family      This is one of the main differences
connection or lineage. The com-        between the Shi'ites and the Sun-
pilation of the Prophetic Tradi-       nis.
tions is taken to be a sacred Trust,
the fulfillment of which overrides
all other considerations.
 
                                        
 
 
                     THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET
 
         Sunnis                              Shi'ites
 
It is unanimously agreed that the   They charge that all save a few of
noble Companions deserve our        the Companions had turned
utmost respect, and are absolute-   apostate after the death of the
ly trustworthy. As for the discord  Prophet (may the peace and
which occurred among them, it       blessings of Allah be upon him).
is to be considered as the conse-   On the other hand, they grant
quence of the sincere exercise of   the Companion 'Ali bin Abi
personal conviction and opinion.    Taalib a very special status; some
The discord was resolved and is a   of them consider him vicegerent,
thing of the past. It is not per-   and some view him as a prophet,
missible for us to hold, on the     while others take him for a god!
basis of past differences among     Shi'ites pass judgment on
the Companions, grudges and ill-    Muslims in accordance with their
will which continue for genera-     position with regards to 'Ali.
tions. The Companions are those     Whoever was elected caliph
whom Allah has described in the     before 'Ali is held by them to be
best of terms; He has praised       a tyrant, an apostate or a sinner.
them upon many occasions. It is     The same judgment is passed on
not lawful for anyone to make       every Muslim ruler who did not
any accusation against them or      step down for any of the descen-
cast suspicion upon them, and       dants of 'Ali and his wife Fatimah
there is no benefit to be derived   (may Allah be pleased with
therefrom.                          them). The Shi'ites have thus
                                    created an atmosphere of
                                    animosity throughout the history
                                    of Islam, and the question of par-
                                    tisanship of Ahlu-l-Bayt developed
                                    into a school of thought which
                                    preached and perpetuated such
                                    detrimental teachings down
                                    through the generations.
 
 
 
 
                   BELIEF IN THE ONENESS OF ALLAH
 
        Sunnis                             Shi'ites
                                    
Sunnis believe that Allah is        The Shi'ites also believe in Allah
One and the Only God, the           the Exalted and His Oneness, ex-
Almighty Subduer. He has no         cept that they adulterate this 
partners or rivals, and He has no   belief with Mu'tazilism and other
equal. They believe in His at-      and strange observances. 
tributes as they were revealed in   They consider their Imams to be
the Qur'anic verses, and they do    infallible, to have knowledge of
not obscure their obvious mean-     the unseen, and to partake in the
ins with far-fetched interpreta-    administration of the universe. 
tions. They do not strike any       Shi'ite scholars and clergy im-
comparison between the divine       pressed upon their followers the
attributes and other things, for    concept of a hereditary privileg-
as Allah says in His Book "There    ed class as a matter of religion, 
is nothing like unto Him."          although this has no foundation
They believe that Allah sent the    in Islam at all.
Prophets and commissioned           Knowledge of Allah, is attained,
them with conveying to mankind      according to them, through the
His Message and Guidance.           exercise of reason, not by 
They conveyed Allah's Message       knowledge of divinely revealed
so that since people could accept   law. That which came to us by
it.They believe that knowledge      way of revelation in the Qur'an
of the unseen belongs to Allah,     merely represents an affirmation
and His servant can only            of reason's judgment; it is not
understand, about Him, what He      considered to be a source which
chooses to reveal to them.          is independent of, and beyond
                                    the limits of reason.
 
 
                          SEEING ALLAH
 
            Sunnis                             Shi'ites
 
Sunnis believe that believers       The Shi'ites believe that to see
will be blessed with the sight      Allah is not possible in this world
of Allah in the Hereafter, as is    nor in the Hereafter.
mentioned in the Qur'an: ''On 
that Day faces of the believers] 
will be resplendent, looking 
towards their Lord."
 
 
 
                            THE UNSEEN
 
             Sunni                              Shi'ites
 
Allah the Exalted has reserved     They claim that knowledge of the
knowledge of the unseen for        unseen belongs solely to their
Himself; however, He has           Imams, and it is not for the Pro-
revealed to His Prophets and       phet to inform us about the un-
Saints some of the affairs and     seen. Some Shi'ites have gone so
conditions of the unseen, for      far as to claim godhead(l for those
particular reasons. The Qur'an     Imams.
says: "And they do not encompass   
anything of Allah's knowledge,   
except what He reveals thereof"
 
 
 
              AALUR-RASOOL (THE FAMILY OF THE MESSENGER)
 
                 (May Allah be pleased with them all)
 
                   Sunnis                Shi'ites
 
Aalur-Rasool, according to the         According to the Shi'ites the
Sunnis, refers to all the believing    term Aalur-Rasool refers only to
descendants and relatives of the       'Ali bin Abi Taalib, and to some 
Prophet Muhammad, from the tribes      of his descendants.
of Haashim and 'Abdul-Muttalib.                                      
The pious and God-fearing people
of the Prophet's Community, and
particularly the converts to Islam,
are also called Aalur-Rasool in a
special sense.
 
 
                 THE MEANING OF SHARI'AH AND HAQEEQAH
 
                    Sunnis                 Shi'ites
 
In the Sunnis' view, the shariah       The Shi'ites see the shari'ah as
(the divinely revealed law) is         being merely the various rulings
itself a relevant aspect of the        and directives set forth by the
haqeeqah (the essential knowledge,     Prophet; they concern the com-
the reality). They hold that the       mon and superficial folk only. As
Messenger of Allah did not con-        for the haqeeqah, no one knows
ceal from his community of believ-     it except the Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayt
ers any part of knowledge that con-    These Imams acquired the
cerns the revealed law. There          sciences of haqeeqah through in-
was no good thing that he did          heritance, one generation after
not guide us to, and no evil thing     another. It remains a secret
that he did not warn us about.         possession among them. Further-
Allah has said 'On this day I have     more, the Shi'ites consider their
completed your religion.               Imams infallible; every work and
Therefore, the sources of the          practice of theirs is deemed in-
Islamic faith are Allah's Book and     cumbent upon their followers.
the Sunnah (practice) of the Pro-      They believe that one may com-
phet; bad innovations are blamed       municate with God only through
and rejected. The relationship         intermediaries, and it is for this
of the believer with Allah, and        reason that their religious leaders
the path to the achievement of         have such an inflated opinion of
good works and worship, are            themselves, as evidenced by the
clear and evident.                     exaggerated titles they take for
                                       themselves, e.g. Baabullah (the
                                       door to Allah), Hujjatullah
                                       (Allah's proof), Ayatullah (the
                                       sign of Allah), Al-Ma'soorn (the
                                       infallible one), etc.
 
 
 
 
                       ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE
 
        Sunnis                               Shi'ites
 
Ahlus-s-Sunnah adhere strictly to    They depend only on the ex-
the legal rulings and directives of  clusive sources which they claim
the Noble Qur'an, as clarified by    for their Imams, upon their far-
the sayings and practices of the     fetched interpretations of the
Messenger of Allah. We also depend   Quran and upon their contrary
upon the sayings of the Com-         attitude which puts them at odds
panions and the generation of        with the majority of the Muslim
trustworthy scholars who follow-     peoples. The Shi'ites consider
ed them. They were the nearest ones  their Imams to be infallible, and
to the Prophet's era and the most    to have the right to create new
sincere in supporting his mission,   rulings and directives .in con-
throughout the tests and trials      tradiction to the revealed law.
which had to be endured in the       For example, they have altered:
course of establishing Islam.        (a) The call to prayer and the
Since this religion has been com-    prescribed times and postures of
pleted, no one has the right to      prayers.
forge new legislation or             (b) The rites of Hajj (pilgrimage)
directives; however, in order to     and visitation to the sacred
properly understand the details      places.
of the revealed law, and to apply    (c) The specified times for begin-
it according to new situations       ning and breaking the fast.
and circumstances while keep-        (d) The rulings with regards to
ing in mind the general welfare      zakaah (alms-tax) and its distribu-
of the people, one must refer to     tion.
the qualified Muslim scholars        (e) The inheritance laws.
who must work solely within the      The Shi'ites are very particular to
bounds established by Allah's        take positions in opposition to
Book and the Sunnah of the Pro-      Ahlus-Sunnah, thus widening the
phet (may Allah's blessings and      gap between us and them.
peace be upon him).                  The Shi'ites follow the so-called
Sunnis accept as authoritative       Ja'fari school of law, and attribute
only those schools of law that are   its origin to Ja'far ibn Muhammad  
transmitted on the authority of      as-Sadiq. These claims are comple-
the Prophet through the first        tely false, since Ja'far as-Sadiq
generations of Muslims. Of all       was not a Shi'te, but a Sunni scholar 
these schools, only four survive     and one of Abu Hanifah's teachers.
until today, that is the Hanafi,     He has no connection to the so-called
Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali           Ja'fari school, that was forged more  
schools. Sunni scholars are una-     than one hundred years after his 
nimous in saying that - among the    death.   
contemporary Muslims - whoever 
does not follow one of them is not
a member of Ahlu-s-Sunnah but a
follower of innovation. They also 
strive their best in refuting
heretic schools of law, like the
pseudo-Ja'fari (Shi'ite) or the
pseudo-Salafi (Wahhabi).
 
 
 
                Al-WALAA' (OBEDIENCE AND DEVOTION)
 
                  Sunnis                Shi'ites
 
Al-walaa' means "total ad-           They view al-walaa' as being one
herence, obedience and devo-         of the pillars of iman. They define
tion." The Sunnis believe that       it as the firm belief in the Twelve
it is due to the Messenger           Imams. including the "hidden"
of Allah, for Allah says in His      Imam. They consider one who
Book "Whosoever obeys the            does not have strict devotion to
Messenger, he has verily obeyed      their Imams as one who has no
Allah." Other persons deserve        faith. They will not pray behind
our obedience only when they         such a person, nor will they give
strictly abide by Islam. Our         him zakaah although he be deserv-
responsibilities to others are       ing of it. Such a person would be
defined by known legal prin-         treated as a kaafr by them.
ciples, and there is no obedience
due to any human being if that
entails disobedience to the
Creator.
 
 
                    TAQIYYAH (CALCULATED DECEPTION)
 
                   Sunnis                Shi'ites
 
It is defined as presenting an       In spite of the differences among
outer appearance that belies         the various Shi'ite sects, they all
what one conceals inside, to pro-    agree that taqiyyah is a prescrib-
tect oneself from harm. It is con-   ed duty and a pillar of their faith.
sidered impermissible for a          Their school of thought could
Muslim to deceive other              not stand without it. They learn
Muslims, because of the Pro-         its principles and methods and
phet's saying: Whoever deceives      they practice it, especially if they
is not one of us." Resorting to      are in dire circumstances. They
taqiyyah is permitted only in some   exaggeratedly praise and flatter
special situations, like jihad       those whom they consider
against those disbelievers who       disbelievers, whom they con-
persecute Muslims. That is part of   sider deserving of slaughter and
the etiquette of war. It is incum-   destruction. The verdict of kufr is
bent on the Muslim to be truthful    passed on anyone who is not of
and courageous in upholding the      their sectarian school, and for
truth, and to be neither osten-      them "the end justifies the
tatious, nor deceiving, nor          means." Their ethics allow every
treacherous. He should give          manner of lying, cunning and
sincere counsel, enjoin what is      deception. 
good and forbid what is evil.
 
 
                    GOVERNING THE ISLAMIC STATE
 
            Sunnis                              Shi'ite
 
The Khilafah is ruled by a caliph   Generally speaking, the right to
elected to his position of leader-  govern, according to Shi'ites, is
ship from among the Muslim          hereditary, and restricted to 'Ali,         
must be sane, honest and            and his descendants by Fatimah
knowledgeable. He should be         There is, however, some slight
known for his piety and trustwor-   difference among them on the
thiness, and should also be         point of the hereditary right as to
capable of bearing such a           whom it belongs to. Due to this
responsibility. The caliph is       view of theirs, the Shi'ites are
nominate to his position of         never loyal to any ruler unless he
leadership by those Muslims en-     is one of the descendants of 'Ali
dowed with knowledge and ex-        bin Abi Taalib. When the prac-
perience.                           tice of hereditary leadership
If he does not hold firm to his     vested in the descendants of 'Ali
duty, and deviates from the         and Fatimah could no longer be
directives of the Qur'an, Muslims   maintained, because the line had
can openly admonish him and invite  come to an end, the Shi'ites in-
him to repent and to change his     vented the doctrine of Ar-Raj'ah,
ways. Otherwise, he totally         according to which the last Imam
deserves the obedience and          was not dead, but "hidden". He
cooperation of every Muslim.        is expected to arise and return at
The role of Khilafah is, to the     the end of time, when he will
Sunnis, a great burden and          slaughter all of his political op-
responsibility, not a mere          ponents, and those of his
honour or an opportunity for ex-    ancestors, and will restore to the
ploitations.                        Shi'ites their rights-which were
                                    "plundered" by the other sects
                                    over the centuries.
 


Edited by Sign*Reader - 03 November 2008 at 2:17pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2008 at 3:01pm
br.Uigher
From this post it seams you are saying history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is part of Islamic constitution right ?

well there is a difference between laws (constitution) and aqaaed (beliefs)....these conflicts can be solved using the constitution...history cant be just set of laws....i hope u got wat m trying to say...

the point where we differ is where to derrive a belief from...the main source is surly the Prophet (s.a.w)...but one group altered the beliefs and the other kept it in its perfect state....a major difference in opinion wich caused wars is evident of this fact..

What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?


this has never happend...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity....

If Abdurahman had a argument with Caliphate Osman ,ti would be most wise idea for Abdurahman to invite lady Fatima to be judge since lady Fatima's word won't be wrong ?


there were times wen maula Ali (a.s) had to intervene in the rulings of the caliphs to prevent zulm on the people... i mentioned da Ahlel Bayt (a.s) not only H.Fatima (s.a)....


br Chrysalis

How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions. . .You can also say that the only 'importance' they hold is historical i.e. such and such thing happened. Full stop. What I dont understand is, why are they portrayed as the be all and end all of Islam by the Shiite community? i.e. why the need to create a Firqa over a polictical conflict??? These issues have nothing to do with Islam per se. . . and what I mean by that is - they do not effect the amaal or intentions etc of Muslim Ummah after that. So why drag the issue along for centuries?


we cant call these conflicts just political conflicts...for many reasons....one of them is because the prophet (a.s) had left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for his ummah....so even if somebody has fought with one of them, do u think he is at the right path....morover to add to that, these conflicts/wars are important to da history of Islam because one shud know where to take ones religion from.....(in da wars in those days)on one side we have people who have narrated many hadith of the Prophet (a.s)...and at the same time on the other side we have people who have also narrated thousands of Hadith of the Prophet (a.s)....so if they are fighting, one of the 2 groups are mischiveios (keeping in mind dat the Prophet (a.s) had given his message perfectly.....

to add to da above reasons the Prophet (a.s) has said:
In Majma' al-Zawa'id and exegesis of Suyuti it has been quoted from Abu Said Khudri with a variation in words that:

For forty days the Holy Prophet approached the house of Fatimah Zahra every morning and used to say:'Peace be upon you O people of the House! The time for the prayers has come'. And thereafter he used to recite this verse: O people of the Prophet's House.... And then said: 'I am in a state of war with him who fights with you and am in a state of peace with him who is at peace with you'.

references:

* Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p199
* Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, pp 121,168


so do u see the importance of these conflicts...
there are many more reasons...but i have mentioned just a few of them...

How are these conflicts part of the interpretation of the Quran? and hadeeth? I think brother/sister Uighur has a valid point, i.e. what relevance does the issue have with practise of Islam today, and us bieng good muslims? We should treat is as a piece of history - and try to learn from it - learn what? To be unified, and not create fitna and rifts etc.


ya...and to know dat one has to know who is a fitna monger and the ways that person tried to create fitnah among the people....


How so? What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? (All the sahaba involved in that issue were esteemed ones... You were not even present at the time, u heard handed down accounts/versions of the conflict, how does that that make you - or me - for that matter, eligible to pass judgements on who was right and who was wrong? I think that is grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan - and leads us astray i.e. we start worrying about irrelevant issues, and forget the bigger picture.


these are important gray areas wich needs to be sorted out....in order to sort it out one needs to research into it because its eemaan thats at stake...wat shud one follow is da biggest question.....and the answer is given by the Prophet (a.s) wen he says he has left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for the ummah.....He (a.s) had said this so that people take them(a.s) as their guide....and not try to guide them by making wars against them....infact those who go against them are going against the Prophet (a.s) and his words(sunnah)...


We should leave everything to Allah - to decide... and judge. No need to take Allah's job on us, and start passing judgements on who was right and wrong.


we have to find the appropriate source of Information which will lead us to true guidance which will lead one to the Path of Allah (s.w.t), the SIRAAT E MUSTAQEEM....


Sign*Reader

the analysis given has been done by an anti-shia....this can be seen in the difference in use of language for explaining both groups....
since its been done by an anti-shia, no doubt 50% of it is something which is a lie...some(10-20% i think) are true...and there are many odd additions....and most of wat has been given above does not exist....i am not surprised to read dat....not at all...these false accustions are da only way someone like u can prove ure point....

wen i say dat i want to add dat i knw da variations in beliefs of shia people...they are not major ones...just some minor issues...thus the above c&p is nothing but mostly a piece of lie...every single sentence can make a topic....if u want, u can go one by one on another thread....if i knw about dat subject i will reply u....


Br. Uigher....m sure he dint like it wen u said:
since we are both Muslim

and has done his best to make me hate sunnis...but alhamd...he has failed....

Edited by asda - 03 November 2008 at 3:03pm
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bullet Posted: 03 November 2008 at 9:04pm
     Brother Asda

     Thank you for your fresh explanation on creed of shia Muslims . These would help people understand Shia more accurately .  Prejudiced view on Shia everywhere in Sunni land ,many Sunni brothers  intentionally or unintentionally defame Shia with malicious accusation. Charging people with malicious accusation is not thing a Muslim should do . We Muslim are people with justice ,no matter who the person we are talking about we should not attribute wrong charges to him ,right?
    Regarding br Chrysalis's word I aggree with him when he said:
 
<What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday?

<How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions>

    Disagreement over who had the legitimate right to occupy the post were political issuer but it later developed into theological one . You may familiar with First Fitne ,here I would like to remind you Ibadhi  , Ibadism is an outgrowth of the Kharijites . Ibadism do have their own creed like Shia but  this sect  result of political  disagreement. Politics nothing but politics it can't be universal like religion . One of their main reason why Shia can't earn hearts of people is that Shia at its core political .They care too much on political issuer between Sahaba ,in br Chrysalis' word <grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan >  .Political issuer between Sahaba were not theological issue as you trying picture here . If you talk with Salifi/wahabi Muslim I am sure you can make them look pity & st**id,because they are not acapable to understand diffirance between theological issue & political issure . If basic on this victory you are confidant on your shia believe ,i am affraid you are just fooling youself . On internet always such uneducated young Muslims end up accusing you with dirty languase 
   brother Asda are you getting me ?  
Since your agurment is political if you try to judge ,instead of looking theological  books , you must search reality and facts and actual conditions ,so your attempt to pass judgement on them with theological  books are not acceptable. If you talk follower of Ibadism ,he will play same  like you . If you really want to know why Shia can't win hearts of Muslim ,just go Islamic forum where  a lots Omani are members , you would learn how pity it would be if one try to picture a political event  as basic of  thelogical argurment .It is like having childish idea : building a large mansion with handful rocks .Did you read my mind ? Religion is much more bigger that a political event in history.
    Brother Asda , you also skipped my point once again ,I hope you answer following
 
  (1) If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of  Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady  Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady  Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because  lady  Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?I mean what is basic for  your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?
(2)#What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?#
#this has never happen...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity..#

So it is impossible for two to have different opinions,so they think same every minute ?who are they ?

As I mentioned earlier My Imam uncle love Ahlul Bayat ,from him I learned that we Muslim should love them , every time I mention Shia he never use word Kafir , but from his eyes I can feel his pain . It is like pain when you see your own bothers doing bad. you love you brother deep inside your heart for sake of brotherhood but it is so hard to hug him for wrongs he have been doing...................    
 
 
   



Edited by Uighur - 04 November 2008 at 12:08am
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bullet Posted: 06 November 2008 at 1:18pm
Salaam'alaikum
hope u r doing gud...

imagine this situation:
the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them...
what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim????

(1) If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?I mean what is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?


all three.....these issues can be solved taken any one of the three points into consideration...but for debates, evidences and reasonable arguments are quite useful..
So it is impossible for two to have different opinions,so they think same every minute ?who are they ?

thats the whole point....u r forgetting that u r talking about one of the "BEST WOMENS EVER LAY FOOT ON EARTH" (s.a) and "THE LEADERS OF THE YOUTHS OF PARADISE!!!"(a.s)...

i am not comparing the above situation, but ure quesiton is similar to "can the Prophet (a.s) and Allah (s.w.t) take different interpretations of Quran???" (NOTE: I REPEAT: I AM NOT COMPARING THE SITUATION, NOR DA STATUS....ONLY COMPARING THE TYPE OF QUESTION ....



the comparisn of Shia of Imam Ali (a.s) is wrong to what u call ibadism...inshallah u will see it soon...

the same sadness and heavy-heartedness is present with every shia.....we have nothing against our sunni brothers..but a lot lies have been attributed to us, due to which its hard to unite....and the only current possible solution is to leave peacfully with each other....cuz shias and sunnis cant unite...no matter wat....there hav been mistakes from both sides....its just dat we have to learn to live together...to make things better....

Edited by asda - 06 November 2008 at 1:20pm
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bullet Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:17am
So bother asda
#the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them...
what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim???? #

Brother ,I knew i am nothing in front of both Ahlul Bayat and sahaba  ,don't try fool me here . Any  attempt to pass judgment on them is horrible thing to me . May Allah protect me from going that far ...zulm  ... whom ? It is interesting that you know zulm as if you know reality and facts and actual conditions when this  zulm  happen ,to you all written down nothing missed ,yes? Ouch I knew there is something important ,this giving you kind of power ,i am feeling it ,because of this you don't care reality and facts and actual conditions

once again

What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?


we are approaching  the core... please answer it clearly 



Edited by Uighur - 07 November 2008 at 7:22am
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bullet Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:35am
Brother ,I knew i am nothing in front of both Ahlul Bayat and sahaba ,don't try fool me here . Any attempt to pass judgment on them is horrible thing to me . May Allah protect me from going that far ...zulm ... whom ? It is interesting that you know zulm as if you know reality and facts and actual conditions when this zulm happen ,to you all written down nothing missed ,yes? I knew there is something important ,this giving you kind of power ,i am feeling it ,because of this you don't care reality and facts and actual conditions


i dont aim to offend u....but i just wanted to knw... btw...wat is the reason of ure above answer???

What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?


i have already told u...all three.....but for debate purposes people usually use evidences and reasonable argument...
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