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Uighur
Newbie
Joined: 30 September 2008 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 24 |
Posted: 02 November 2008 at 8:33pm |
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#however u have got wat i am trying to say...#
Brother Asda ,sadly you are not got wat i am trying to say ... because you are trying too hard to express yourself. Why not got little time to think over what i am trying to say? In different ways I am trying to make my concern clear but you are answering me with something else ... just walking around topic but never come it... Ok ,let us discuss it again but differently ......... From this post it seams you are saying history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is part of Islamic constitution right ? So It would be wrong of me if i treat it as case ...right ? . So history of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is not case that one must be bring to court but extremely important part of Islamic constitution .In this pretext it is nonsense to treat AHLEL BAYT (a.s) as suject to constitution .. If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring , lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?If Abdurahman had a argument with Caliphate Osman ,ti would be most wise idea for Abdurahman to invite lady Fatima to be judge since lady Fatima's word won't be wrong ? What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ? Edited by Uighur - 02 November 2008 at 8:56pm |
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Chrysalis
Senior Member
Joined: 25 November 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2031 |
Posted: 03 November 2008 at 4:50am |
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this is because the conflicts of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were related to Islam... How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions. . .You can also say that the only 'importance' they hold is historical i.e. such and such thing happened. Full stop. What I dont understand is, why are they portrayed as the be all and end all of Islam by the Shiite community? i.e. why the need to create a Firqa over a polictical conflict??? These issues have nothing to do with Islam per se. . . and what I mean by that is - they do not effect the amaal or intentions etc of Muslim Ummah after that. So why drag the issue along for centuries?
these conflicts are part of interpretation of quran and also involves a study into constitutions of quran and explaination of hadeeth....so..in all...all of these are important....in other ways...ure above query is something like: "is it important to study the quran or the words of the Prophet???" How are these conflicts part of the interpretation of the Quran? and hadeeth? I think brother/sister Uighur has a valid point, i.e. what relevance does the issue have with practise of Islam today, and us bieng good muslims? We should treat is as a piece of history - and try to learn from it - learn what? To be unified, and not create fitna and rifts etc. And to focus on the larger picture i.e. qiyamat, amaal, good of muslim ummah etc. Not focus on trivial/petty issues.
i can judge between the conflicts related to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)... How so? What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? (All the sahaba involved in that issue were esteemed ones... You were not even present at the time, u heard handed down accounts/versions of the conflict, how does that that make you - or me - for that matter, eligible to pass judgements on who was right and who was wrong? I think that is grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan - and leads us astray i.e. we start worrying about irrelevant issues, and forget the bigger picture. This is what the Bani Israel used to do. . . focus on the little, irrelevant things - rather than Allah's compulsory commands. Thats what Surah Baqarah is all about.
We should leave everything to Allah - to decide... and judge. No need to take Allah's job on us, and start passing judgements on who was right and wrong. Edited by Chrysalis - 03 November 2008 at 4:51am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member
Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352 |
Posted: 03 November 2008 at 2:11pm |
Bro Uighur I am sorry to see you are not getting anywhere with the shill! As you can see the areas of irreconcilability are so many that you might as well give up your creed to be friends with this lot! There is unanimous agreement To some of them, the Qur'an'samong them regarding its authenticity is doubtful, and if itauthenticity, and its text being appears to contradict any of theirsafeguarded from any additions sectarian beliefs or doctrines, thenor deletions. The Qur'an is to be they give the Qur'anic textunderstood in consonance with strange, far-fetched interpretationsthe rules and bases of the Arabic that agree with their sectarianlanguage. They believe in every views. They love to draw attentionsingle letter of it, it being the to the discord that occurred at the word of Allah the Exalted. The time when the Qur'an was firstQur'an is neither temporal nor compiled. The views and opinions newly created, but is eternal. that they falsely attribute to the Falsehood does not approach it Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayt are the primaryfrom before it or behind it. It source of their jurisprudence.is the primary source of all the Muslims' tenets of faith, their rites and rules of conduct. AHAADEETH (THE PROPHETIC TRADITIONS) Sunnis Shi'ite For the Sunnis, it is the second The Shi'ites reject all Propheticsource of revealed law, com- Traditions which were not relatedplementary to the Noble Quran by members of Ahlu-l-Bayt, or theirIt is not permissible to contradict descendants. The only exceptionor reject the rulings and direc- to this rule is their acceptance of tives contained in those a few ahaadeeth narrated by thoseahaadeeth which are reliably at- who sided with 'Ali (may Allah betributed to the Prophet (may pleased with him) in his politicalAllah's blessings and peace be wars. They do not attend to theupon him). The methodology ap- authenticity and soundness of theplied in determining the authen- chain of narrators, nor do they ap-ticity of these traditions utilizes a approach the study of the Propheticset of stringent rules agreed upon Traditions with a scientific by the scholars who specialize in attitude. Their narrations often ap-this field, and involves a detailed pear in a form like that of theanalysis of the chain of transmit- following example: "It has beenters of any given tradition. No reported regarding Muhammaddistinction is made between bin Isma'eel by way of some ofmale and female narrators; judg- our friends through a man whoment is made solely on the basis transmitted it from him ['Ali] thatof individual trustworthiness and he said...". Their books are filledtechnical ability in relating tradi- with hundreds of thousands oftions, and every narrator's traditions whose authenticity can-history is recorded. No tradition not be confirmed. They have builtis accepted from a known liar, or their religion specifically uponfrom one whose morals or these spurious texts while outrightscholarly ability were not cor- rejecting over three quarters of theroborated, or from anyone, authentic Prophetic Traditions.merely on the basis of his family This is one of the main differencesconnection or lineage. The com- between the Shi'ites and the Sun-pilation of the Prophetic Tradi- nis.tions is taken to be a sacred Trust,the fulfillment of which overrides all other considerations. THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET Sunnis Shi'ites It is unanimously agreed that the They charge that all save a few ofnoble Companions deserve our the Companions had turnedutmost respect, and are absolute- apostate after the death of thely trustworthy. As for the discord Prophet (may the peace andwhich occurred among them, it blessings of Allah be upon him).is to be considered as the conse- On the other hand, they grantquence of the sincere exercise of the Companion 'Ali bin Abipersonal conviction and opinion. Taalib a very special status; someThe discord was resolved and is a of them consider him vicegerent,thing of the past. It is not per- and some view him as a prophet,missible for us to hold, on the while others take him for a god!basis of past differences among Shi'ites pass judgment onthe Companions, grudges and ill- Muslims in accordance with theirwill which continue for genera- position with regards to 'Ali.tions. The Companions are those Whoever was elected caliphwhom Allah has described in the before 'Ali is held by them to bebest of terms; He has praised a tyrant, an apostate or a sinner.them upon many occasions. It is The same judgment is passed onnot lawful for anyone to make every Muslim ruler who did notany accusation against them or step down for any of the descen-cast suspicion upon them, and dants of 'Ali and his wife Fatimahthere is no benefit to be derived (may Allah be pleased withtherefrom. them). The Shi'ites have thus created an atmosphere of animosity throughout the history of Islam, and the question of par- tisanship of Ahlu-l-Bayt developed into a school of thought which preached and perpetuated such detrimental teachings down through the generations. BELIEF IN THE ONENESS OF ALLAH Sunnis Shi'ites Sunnis believe that Allah is The Shi'ites also believe in AllahOne and the Only God, the the Exalted and His Oneness, ex-Almighty Subduer. He has no cept that they adulterate this partners or rivals, and He has no belief with Mu'tazilism and otherequal. They believe in His at- and strange observances. tributes as they were revealed in They consider their Imams to bethe Qur'anic verses, and they do infallible, to have knowledge ofnot obscure their obvious mean- the unseen, and to partake in theins with far-fetched interpreta- administration of the universe. tions. They do not strike any Shi'ite scholars and clergy im-comparison between the divine pressed upon their followers theattributes and other things, for concept of a hereditary privileg-as Allah says in His Book "There ed class as a matter of religion, is nothing like unto Him." although this has no foundationThey believe that Allah sent the in Islam at all.Prophets and commissioned Knowledge of Allah, is attained,them with conveying to mankind according to them, through theHis Message and Guidance. exercise of reason, not by They conveyed Allah's Message knowledge of divinely revealedso that since people could accept law. That which came to us byit.They believe that knowledge way of revelation in the Qur'anof the unseen belongs to Allah, merely represents an affirmationand His servant can only of reason's judgment; it is notunderstand, about Him, what He considered to be a source whichchooses to reveal to them. is independent of, and beyond the limits of reason. SEEING ALLAH Sunnis Shi'ites Sunnis believe that believers The Shi'ites believe that to seewill be blessed with the sight Allah is not possible in this worldof Allah in the Hereafter, as is nor in the Hereafter.mentioned in the Qur'an: ''On that Day faces of the believers] will be resplendent, looking towards their Lord." THE UNSEEN Sunni Shi'ites Allah the Exalted has reserved They claim that knowledge of theknowledge of the unseen for unseen belongs solely to theirHimself; however, He has Imams, and it is not for the Pro-revealed to His Prophets and phet to inform us about the un-Saints some of the affairs and seen. Some Shi'ites have gone soconditions of the unseen, for far as to claim godhead(l for thoseparticular reasons. The Qur'an Imams.says: "And they do not encompass anything of Allah's knowledge, except what He reveals thereof" AALUR-RASOOL (THE FAMILY OF THE MESSENGER) (May Allah be pleased with them all) Sunnis Shi'ites Aalur-Rasool, according to the According to the Shi'ites theSunnis, refers to all the believing term Aalur-Rasool refers only todescendants and relatives of the 'Ali bin Abi Taalib, and to some Prophet Muhammad, from the tribes of his descendants.of Haashim and 'Abdul-Muttalib. The pious and God-fearing peopleof the Prophet's Community, andparticularly the converts to Islam,are also called Aalur-Rasool in aspecial sense. THE MEANING OF SHARI'AH AND HAQEEQAH Sunnis Shi'ites In the Sunnis' view, the shariah The Shi'ites see the shari'ah as(the divinely revealed law) is being merely the various rulingsitself a relevant aspect of the and directives set forth by thehaqeeqah (the essential knowledge, Prophet; they concern the com-the reality). They hold that the mon and superficial folk only. AsMessenger of Allah did not con- for the haqeeqah, no one knowsceal from his community of believ- it except the Imams of Ahlu-l-Bayters any part of knowledge that con- These Imams acquired thecerns the revealed law. There sciences of haqeeqah through in-was no good thing that he did heritance, one generation afternot guide us to, and no evil thing another. It remains a secretthat he did not warn us about. possession among them. Further-Allah has said 'On this day I have more, the Shi'ites consider theircompleted your religion. Imams infallible; every work andTherefore, the sources of the practice of theirs is deemed in-Islamic faith are Allah's Book and cumbent upon their followers.the Sunnah (practice) of the Pro- They believe that one may com-phet; bad innovations are blamed municate with God only throughand rejected. The relationship intermediaries, and it is for thisof the believer with Allah, and reason that their religious leadersthe path to the achievement of have such an inflated opinion ofgood works and worship, are themselves, as evidenced by theclear and evident. exaggerated titles they take for themselves, e.g. Baabullah (the door to Allah), Hujjatullah (Allah's proof), Ayatullah (the sign of Allah), Al-Ma'soorn (theinfallible one), etc. ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE Sunnis Shi'ites Ahlus-s-Sunnah adhere strictly to They depend only on the ex-the legal rulings and directives of clusive sources which they claimthe Noble Qur'an, as clarified by for their Imams, upon their far-the sayings and practices of the fetched interpretations of theMessenger of Allah. We also depend Quran and upon their contraryupon the sayings of the Com- attitude which puts them at oddspanions and the generation of with the majority of the Muslimtrustworthy scholars who follow- peoples. The Shi'ites considered them. They were the nearest ones their Imams to be infallible, andto the Prophet's era and the most to have the right to create newsincere in supporting his mission, rulings and directives .in con-throughout the tests and trials tradiction to the revealed law.which had to be endured in the For example, they have altered:course of establishing Islam. (a) The call to prayer and theSince this religion has been com- prescribed times and postures ofpleted, no one has the right to prayers.forge new legislation or (b) The rites of Hajj (pilgrimage)directives; however, in order to and visitation to the sacredproperly understand the details places.of the revealed law, and to apply (c) The specified times for begin-it according to new situations ning and breaking the fast.and circumstances while keep- (d) The rulings with regards toing in mind the general welfare zakaah (alms-tax) and its distribu-of the people, one must refer to tion.the qualified Muslim scholars (e) The inheritance laws.who must work solely within the The Shi'ites are very particular tobounds established by Allah's take positions in opposition toBook and the Sunnah of the Pro- Ahlus-Sunnah, thus widening thephet (may Allah's blessings and gap between us and them.peace be upon him). The Shi'ites follow the so-calledSunnis accept as authoritative Ja'fari school of law, and attributeonly those schools of law that are its origin to Ja'far ibn Muhammad transmitted on the authority of as-Sadiq. These claims are comple-the Prophet through the first tely false, since Ja'far as-Sadiqgenerations of Muslims. Of all was not a Shi'te, but a Sunni scholar these schools, only four survive and one of Abu Hanifah's teachers.until today, that is the Hanafi, He has no connection to the so-calledMaliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali Ja'fari school, that was forged more schools. Sunni scholars are una- than one hundred years after his nimous in saying that - among the death. contemporary Muslims - whoever does not follow one of them is nota member of Ahlu-s-Sunnah but afollower of innovation. They also strive their best in refutingheretic schools of law, like thepseudo-Ja'fari (Shi'ite) or thepseudo-Salafi (Wahhabi). Al-WALAA' (OBEDIENCE AND DEVOTION) Sunnis Shi'ites Al-walaa' means "total ad- They view al-walaa' as being oneherence, obedience and devo- of the pillars of iman. They definetion." The Sunnis believe that it as the firm belief in the Twelveit is due to the Messenger Imams. including the "hidden"of Allah, for Allah says in His Imam. They consider one whoBook "Whosoever obeys the does not have strict devotion toMessenger, he has verily obeyed their Imams as one who has noAllah." Other persons deserve faith. They will not pray behindour obedience only when they such a person, nor will they givestrictly abide by Islam. Our him zakaah although he be deserv-responsibilities to others are ing of it. Such a person would bedefined by known legal prin- treated as a kaafr by them.ciples, and there is no obediencedue to any human being if thatentails disobedience to theCreator. TAQIYYAH (CALCULATED DECEPTION) Sunnis Shi'ites It is defined as presenting an In spite of the differences amongouter appearance that belies the various Shi'ite sects, they allwhat one conceals inside, to pro- agree that taqiyyah is a prescrib-tect oneself from harm. It is con- ed duty and a pillar of their faith.sidered impermissible for a Their school of thought couldMuslim to deceive other not stand without it. They learnMuslims, because of the Pro- its principles and methods andphet's saying: Whoever deceives they practice it, especially if theyis not one of us." Resorting to are in dire circumstances. Theytaqiyyah is permitted only in some exaggeratedly praise and flatterspecial situations, like jihad those whom they consideragainst those disbelievers who disbelievers, whom they con-persecute Muslims. That is part of sider deserving of slaughter andthe etiquette of war. It is incum- destruction. The verdict of kufr isbent on the Muslim to be truthful passed on anyone who is not ofand courageous in upholding the their sectarian school, and fortruth, and to be neither osten- them "the end justifies thetatious, nor deceiving, nor means." Their ethics allow everytreacherous. He should give manner of lying, cunning andsincere counsel, enjoin what is deception. good and forbid what is evil. GOVERNING THE ISLAMIC STATE Sunnis Shi'ite The Khilafah is ruled by a caliph Generally speaking, the right toelected to his position of leader- govern, according to Shi'ites, isship from among the Muslim hereditary, and restricted to 'Ali, must be sane, honest and and his descendants by Fatimahknowledgeable. He should be There is, however, some slightknown for his piety and trustwor- difference among them on thethiness, and should also be point of the hereditary right as tocapable of bearing such a whom it belongs to. Due to thisresponsibility. The caliph is view of theirs, the Shi'ites arenominate to his position of never loyal to any ruler unless heleadership by those Muslims en- is one of the descendants of 'Alidowed with knowledge and ex- bin Abi Taalib. When the prac-perience. tice of hereditary leadershipIf he does not hold firm to his vested in the descendants of 'Aliduty, and deviates from the and Fatimah could no longer bedirectives of the Qur'an, Muslims maintained, because the line hadcan openly admonish him and invite come to an end, the Shi'ites in-him to repent and to change his vented the doctrine of Ar-Raj'ah,ways. Otherwise, he totally according to which the last Imamdeserves the obedience and was not dead, but "hidden". Hecooperation of every Muslim. is expected to arise and return atThe role of Khilafah is, to the the end of time, when he willSunnis, a great burden and slaughter all of his political op-responsibility, not a mere ponents, and those of hishonour or an opportunity for ex- ancestors, and will restore to theploitations. Shi'ites their rights-which were "plundered" by the other sects over the centuries.
Edited by Sign*Reader - 03 November 2008 at 2:17pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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asda
Senior Member
Joined: 02 September 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 164 |
Posted: 03 November 2008 at 3:01pm |
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br.Uigher
From this post it seams you are saying history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is part of Islamic constitution right ?
well there is a difference between laws (constitution) and aqaaed (beliefs)....these conflicts can be solved using the constitution...history cant be just set of laws....i hope u got wat m trying to say... the point where we differ is where to derrive a belief from...the main source is surly the Prophet (s.a.w)...but one group altered the beliefs and the other kept it in its perfect state....a major difference in opinion wich caused wars is evident of this fact.. What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?
this has never happend...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity.... If Abdurahman had a argument with Caliphate Osman ,ti would be most wise idea for Abdurahman to invite lady Fatima to be judge since lady Fatima's word won't be wrong ?
there were times wen maula Ali (a.s) had to intervene in the rulings of the caliphs to prevent zulm on the people... i mentioned da Ahlel Bayt (a.s) not only H.Fatima (s.a).... br Chrysalis How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions. . .You can also say that the only 'importance' they hold is historical i.e. such and such thing happened. Full stop. What I dont understand is, why are they portrayed as the be all and end all of Islam by the Shiite community? i.e. why the need to create a Firqa over a polictical conflict??? These issues have nothing to do with Islam per se. . . and what I mean by that is - they do not effect the amaal or intentions etc of Muslim Ummah after that. So why drag the issue along for centuries?
we cant call these conflicts just political conflicts...for many reasons....one of them is because the prophet (a.s) had left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for his ummah....so even if somebody has fought with one of them, do u think he is at the right path....morover to add to that, these conflicts/wars are important to da history of Islam because one shud know where to take ones religion from.....(in da wars in those days)on one side we have people who have narrated many hadith of the Prophet (a.s)...and at the same time on the other side we have people who have also narrated thousands of Hadith of the Prophet (a.s)....so if they are fighting, one of the 2 groups are mischiveios (keeping in mind dat the Prophet (a.s) had given his message perfectly..... to add to da above reasons the Prophet (a.s) has said: In Majma' al-Zawa'id and exegesis of Suyuti it has been quoted from Abu Said Khudri with a variation in words that: For forty days the Holy Prophet approached the house of Fatimah Zahra every morning and used to say:'Peace be upon you O people of the House! The time for the prayers has come'. And thereafter he used to recite this verse: O people of the Prophet's House.... And then said: 'I am in a state of war with him who fights with you and am in a state of peace with him who is at peace with you'. references: * Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v5, p199 * Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, pp 121,168 so do u see the importance of these conflicts... there are many more reasons...but i have mentioned just a few of them... How are these conflicts part of the interpretation of the Quran? and hadeeth? I think brother/sister Uighur has a valid point, i.e. what relevance does the issue have with practise of Islam today, and us bieng good muslims? We should treat is as a piece of history - and try to learn from it - learn what? To be unified, and not create fitna and rifts etc.
ya...and to know dat one has to know who is a fitna monger and the ways that person tried to create fitnah among the people.... How so? What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? (All the sahaba involved in that issue were esteemed ones... You were not even present at the time, u heard handed down accounts/versions of the conflict, how does that that make you - or me - for that matter, eligible to pass judgements on who was right and who was wrong? I think that is grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan - and leads us astray i.e. we start worrying about irrelevant issues, and forget the bigger picture.
these are important gray areas wich needs to be sorted out....in order to sort it out one needs to research into it because its eemaan thats at stake...wat shud one follow is da biggest question.....and the answer is given by the Prophet (a.s) wen he says he has left Quran and Ahlel Bayt (a.s) for the ummah.....He (a.s) had said this so that people take them(a.s) as their guide....and not try to guide them by making wars against them....infact those who go against them are going against the Prophet (a.s) and his words(sunnah)... We should leave everything to Allah - to decide... and judge. No need to take Allah's job on us, and start passing judgements on who was right and wrong.
we have to find the appropriate source of Information which will lead us to true guidance which will lead one to the Path of Allah (s.w.t), the SIRAAT E MUSTAQEEM.... Sign*Reader
the analysis given has been done by an anti-shia....this can be seen in the difference in use of language for explaining both groups.... since its been done by an anti-shia, no doubt 50% of it is something which is a lie...some(10-20% i think) are true...and there are many odd additions....and most of wat has been given above does not exist....i am not surprised to read dat....not at all...these false accustions are da only way someone like u can prove ure point.... wen i say dat i want to add dat i knw da variations in beliefs of shia people...they are not major ones...just some minor issues...thus the above c&p is nothing but mostly a piece of lie...every single sentence can make a topic....if u want, u can go one by one on another thread....if i knw about dat subject i will reply u.... Br. Uigher....m sure he dint like it wen u said: since we are both Muslim
and has done his best to make me hate sunnis...but alhamd...he has failed.... Edited by asda - 03 November 2008 at 3:03pm |
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Uighur
Newbie
Joined: 30 September 2008 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 24 |
Posted: 03 November 2008 at 9:04pm |
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Brother Asda
Thank you for your fresh explanation on creed of shia Muslims . These would help people understand Shia more accurately . Prejudiced view on Shia everywhere in Sunni land ,many Sunni brothers intentionally or unintentionally defame Shia with malicious accusation. Charging people with malicious accusation is not thing a Muslim should do . We Muslim are people with justice ,no matter who the person we are talking about we should not attribute wrong charges to him ,right? Regarding br Chrysalis's word I aggree with him when he said: <What possible credentials does a modern day muslim have, to judge issues b/w the great sahaba of yesterday? > <How so? The 'conflicts' of Ahle Bayt were just that - conflicts. To be more specific, they were political conflicts, and conflicts of opinions> Disagreement over who had the legitimate right to occupy the post were political issuer but it later developed into theological one . You may familiar with First Fitne ,here I would like to remind you Ibadhi , Ibadism is an outgrowth of the Kharijites . Ibadism do have their own creed like Shia but this sect result of political disagreement. Politics nothing but politics it can't be universal like religion . One of their main reason why Shia can't earn hearts of people is that Shia at its core political .They care too much on political issuer between Sahaba ,in br Chrysalis' word <grey territory, dangerous territory, which effects Imaan > .Political issuer between Sahaba were not theological issue as you trying picture here . If you talk with Salifi/wahabi Muslim I am sure you can make them look pity & st**id,because they are not acapable to understand diffirance between theological issue & political issure . If basic on this victory you are confidant on your shia believe ,i am affraid you are just fooling youself . On internet always such uneducated young Muslims end up accusing you with dirty languase brother Asda are you getting me ? Since your agurment is political if you try to judge ,instead of looking theological books , you must search reality and facts and actual conditions ,so your attempt to pass judgement on them with theological books are not acceptable. If you talk follower of Ibadism ,he will play same like you . If you really want to know why Shia can't win hearts of Muslim ,just go Islamic forum where a lots Omani are members , you would learn how pity it would be if one try to picture a political event as basic of thelogical argurment .It is like having childish idea : building a large mansion with handful rocks .Did you read my mind ? Religion is much more bigger that a political event in history. Brother Asda , you also skipped my point once again ,I hope you answer following (1) If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?I mean what is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ? (2)#What if lady Fatima had different opinion with her son ?# #this has never happen...nor can it happen......the garuntee of their purty has been given in Quran....and purity is not just physical purity..# So it is impossible for two to have different opinions,so they think same every minute ?who are they ? As I mentioned earlier My Imam uncle love Ahlul Bayat ,from him I learned that we Muslim should love them , every time I mention Shia he never use word Kafir , but from his eyes I can feel his pain . It is like pain when you see your own bothers doing bad. you love you brother deep inside your heart for sake of brotherhood but it is so hard to hug him for wrongs he have been doing................... Edited by Uighur - 04 November 2008 at 12:08am |
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asda
Senior Member
Joined: 02 September 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 164 |
Posted: 06 November 2008 at 1:18pm |
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Salaam'alaikum
hope u r doing gud... imagine this situation: the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them... what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim???? (1) If above statement correct since Islamic constitution is something divine , as part of Islamic constitution is AHLEL BAYT (a.s) divine too? If your answer to this is yes ... so if lady Fatima do had different opinion with Abu Babir whatever evidences or reasonable argument he may bring lady Fatima's opinion must be correct in first place just because lady Fatima is daughter of Prophet ?I mean what is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?
all three.....these issues can be solved taken any one of the three points into consideration...but for debates, evidences and reasonable arguments are quite useful.. So it is impossible for two to have different opinions,so they think same every minute ?who are they ?
thats the whole point....u r forgetting that u r talking about one of the "BEST WOMENS EVER LAY FOOT ON EARTH" (s.a) and "THE LEADERS OF THE YOUTHS OF PARADISE!!!"(a.s)... i am not comparing the above situation, but ure quesiton is similar to "can the Prophet (a.s) and Allah (s.w.t) take different interpretations of Quran???" (NOTE: I REPEAT: I AM NOT COMPARING THE SITUATION, NOR DA STATUS....ONLY COMPARING THE TYPE OF QUESTION .... the comparisn of Shia of Imam Ali (a.s) is wrong to what u call ibadism...inshallah u will see it soon... the same sadness and heavy-heartedness is present with every shia.....we have nothing against our sunni brothers..but a lot lies have been attributed to us, due to which its hard to unite....and the only current possible solution is to leave peacfully with each other....cuz shias and sunnis cant unite...no matter wat....there hav been mistakes from both sides....its just dat we have to learn to live together...to make things better.... Edited by asda - 06 November 2008 at 1:20pm |
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Uighur
Newbie
Joined: 30 September 2008 Location: China Online Status: Offline Posts: 24 |
Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:17am |
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So bother asda
#the people who took power after Prophet (a.s), were da same people who took the rights of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and behaved unjustly towards them...so much so that they even did zulm to them... what is ure 1st reaction to the above claim???? # Brother ,I knew i am nothing in front of both Ahlul Bayat and sahaba ,don't try fool me here . Any attempt to pass judgment on them is horrible thing to me . May Allah protect me from going that far ...zulm ... whom ? It is interesting that you know zulm as if you know reality and facts and actual conditions when this zulm happen ,to you all written down nothing missed ,yes? I knew there is something important ,this giving you kind of power ,i am feeling it ,because of this you don't care reality and facts and actual conditionsonce again What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ? we are approaching the core... please answer it clearly Edited by Uighur - 07 November 2008 at 7:22am |
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asda
Senior Member
Joined: 02 September 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 164 |
Posted: 07 November 2008 at 7:35am |
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Brother ,I knew i am nothing in front of both Ahlul Bayat and sahaba ,don't try fool me here . Any attempt to pass judgment on them is horrible thing to me . May Allah protect me from going that far ...zulm ... whom ? It is interesting that you know zulm as if you know reality and facts and actual conditions when this zulm happen ,to you all written down nothing missed ,yes? I knew there is something important ,this giving you kind of power ,i am feeling it ,because of this you don't care reality and facts and actual conditions
i dont aim to offend u....but i just wanted to knw... btw...wat is the reason of ure above answer??? What is basic for your judgment on them ,evidences & reasonable argument or divinity ?
i have already told u...all three.....but for debate purposes people usually use evidences and reasonable argument... |
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