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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 26 October 2008 at 9:16am
alhamd i knew u r not a follower of ibn tayimiyah nor a wahaabi....i have delt with people with those views, so i kinda get a hint....

one has to be just impartial wen it comes to conflicts...and has to keep the likings of Allah (s.w.t) and his Prophet (a.s) before anything else...

it is clear between u and me that the Prophet (a.s) had dilivered his message crystal clear and complete to the ummah....which has been accepted by all, past or present (dat da msg was complete and clear)....so if this is true, and all the people around the Prophet (a.s) were on haq, then there shud NEVER BE ANY CONFLICT AMONG THEM... since conflicts did arise, i dont see y it is hard to judge between conflicts....cuz there cant be doubts/conflicts raised among da people if dey r on haq and have understood the clear and complete message of the Prophet (a.s)...specially as soon as the Prophet (a.s) left....

now we r left with 2 possiblities in these conflicts:
1: either one has to accept that the Prophet (a.s) did not give his message clearly, or dint explain everything to the ummah (maazallah) which caused the people around him to dispute and fight wars among themselves...

2:If the Prophet (a.s) had given his message clearly then it is true that both sides of the party knew the Position of Haq, whatever it was..... therefore one is forces to accept dat atleast ONE party in the conflict was denying the truth to create mischieve among the ummah...


i dont see any 3rd possiblity here.....

i hope i have not confused u, and have given my message clearly....if there are any doubts den do let me know....

Edited by asda - 26 October 2008 at 9:17am
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Uighur
 
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bullet Posted: 27 October 2008 at 3:19am
Brother asda

since we are both Muslim(if you do not believe hanifi Muslim are kuffur) I am try to avoid you Vs me mode, ,please give me your attention

(1)you claim you are in capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba  when it concerned with ahlel bayt (a.s).
(2)It shocked me ,i know from history books that there were some conflict or disagreement occurred between companions, some of these event happen among certain groups ,some between individuals however sunni scholars did not claim to have abality to judge on disagreement between sahaba 
(3)Then I aked you with great interest , what quality , knowledge  or sort of training one must go throgh when he desire to have the  capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba

    If you are interest in haq and batal before your intensive interest on ahlel bayt (a.s)  ,we can have a topic where we can use  term <us >, right ?so would you please offer your answer to this ?What make up a judge who in  capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba .  islam is religion of mankind ,most perfect system ever on the earth but if you want to be judge on US supreme court ,you won't be as soon as you wish to be because of your intensive interest  on certain criminal case right ? You need go through certain formulation ... same way what quality , knowledge  or sort of training for person wish to be judge who in  capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba?Question




Edited by Uighur - 27 October 2008 at 8:50am
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 29 October 2008 at 7:07am
Salaams

i dont belive any sunni to be kaafir....they are surly muslims... because one who belives in Allah (s.w.t) and his Prophet (s.a.w) can never be a kaafir..... doubts can be raised for those who skips either one of the 2...

the shia scholars have seen black and white clearly in matters of conflicts and disagreements....

u have asked:
I aked you with great interest , what quality , knowledge or sort of training one must go throgh when he desire to have the capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba


well ure question is not inline with my claims... i have not said dat i can judge disagreements among da sahaaba... i have repeatedly said dat one can judge disagreements which were linked to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)only...and not sahaaba in general...

how to come up with a conclusion on the the matters of coflicts concerning the Ahlel Bayt?

Allah (s.w.t) has made it easy for one to judge between haq and baatil..... to judge between right and wrong...
remember: haq cannot mix with baatil.....therefore it is important to differ..
in judging between da conflicts of Haq and Baatil one does not need to apply rocket science...
similarly judging the haq in conflicts related to ahlel bayt (a.s) is not a very hard process...one has to study da quran and the hadith of the Prophet (s.a.w)...

but from wat i see (correct me if i am wrong): the sunni ulama are not willing to find haq and baatil in these conflicts....for reasons i dont know...it is very important to recognise the right people from whom one can take his religion....because i have already posed a serios question in my previos post, and have given u 2 possible situations wen judging between the people....if a 3rd situation exists then u can explain dat to me...

therefore the only qualification lack i see is dat the sunni ulama are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims....i repeat: haq cannot mix with baatil.....therefore it is important to differ..
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Saladin
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bullet Posted: 30 October 2008 at 6:59am
Originally posted by asda


it is clear between u and me that the Prophet (a.s) had dilivered his message crystal clear and complete to the ummah....which has been accepted by all, past or present (dat da msg was complete and clear)....so if this is true, and all the people around the Prophet (a.s) were on haq, then there shud NEVER BE ANY CONFLICT AMONG THEM... since conflicts did arise, i dont see y it is hard to judge between conflicts....cuz there cant be doubts/conflicts raised among da people if dey r on haq and have understood the clear and complete message of the Prophet (a.s)...specially as soon as the Prophet (a.s) left....

now we r left with 2 possiblities in these conflicts:
1: either one has to accept that the Prophet (a.s) did not give his message clearly, or dint explain everything to the ummah (maazallah) which caused the people around him to dispute and fight wars among themselves...

2:If the Prophet (a.s) had given his message clearly then it is true that both sides of the party knew the Position of Haq, whatever it was..... therefore one is forces to accept dat atleast ONE party in the conflict was denying the truth to create mischieve among the ummah...


i dont see any 3rd possibility here.....
 
 
Isnt there the possibility that some sahabas made the wrong ijtihad not out of mischief but due to circumstances and that the munafiqs who wanted to destabilize the ummah worked all the mischief that caused the chaos and chasms in the society?
 


Edited by Saladin - 30 October 2008 at 7:11am
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Uighur
 
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bullet Posted: 30 October 2008 at 9:00am

I aked you with great interest , what quality , knowledge or sort of training one must go throgh when he desire to have the capability to judge on disagreement between sahaba


Originally posted by asda

well ure question is not inline with my claims... i have not said dat i can judge disagreements among da sahaaba... i have repeatedly said dat one can judge disagreements which were linked to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)only...and not sahaaba in general...


Brother asda

You claim you can judge whose right and whose wrong when disagreement something to do with Ahlel Bayt (a.s)  however it means one can be good Muslim  if he/she study Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history with  intensive interest  take a side of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) after enlightment


Is my understanding correct ?

However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit  can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements  Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba  . Did you read my mind ? Bunch of Judges on the court who say they can make judgment on
certain case but unable to judge on other case should go fishing,am I right ?If you still don't clear ,I am saying that judge must be person who familiar with constitution . Instead of be expert on certain case they are people who live within  spirituality of constitution. For this reason people come to them & ask what is right what is wrong from them .  From your previous statement I am under the impression that you are most important man in Islamic history becase you claim a ability to judge on sahaba but after asking couple questions I am disappointing day by day,it is pity that I have already prepared a file in which disagreements among da sahaaba  mentioned in detail.

 
sunni ulama are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims..


Brother asda ,Sunni ulama do keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims..not only that Sunni ulama do keen deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place in world ..but they are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among sahaba .  Because there were so many beautiful cooperation mutual respect ,care & loveSleepy between Sahaba that  battles/conflicts Crysadly took place among them only  occupy little part of their story, Sunni ulama have been focusing this big beautiful picture instead of studying small agurment they have been studying wisdom/ spirituality they learned from our loved prophet .See one are trying to be judge on sahaba,other studying wisdom/ spirituality that sahaba learned from our loved prophet which is better ?








Edited by Uighur - 31 October 2008 at 3:40am
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 31 October 2008 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by Saladin


Isnt there the possibility that some sahabas made the wrong ijtihad not out of mischief but due to circumstances and that the munafiqs who wanted to destabilize the ummah worked all the mischief that caused the chaos and chasms in the society?

 


that goes inline with the 1st option i have given...

Brother asda

You claim you can judge whose right and whose wrong when disagreement something to do with Ahlel Bayt (a.s) however it means one can be good Muslim if he/she study Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history with intensive interest take a side of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) after enlightment


Is my understanding correct ?


yes...


However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba . Did you read my mind ? Bunch of Judges on the court who say they can make judgment on
certain case but unable to judge on other case should go fishing,am I right ?


y wud anybody research on conflicts which does not affect the religion at all.. i mean, do u think u want me to solve their household fights as well...come on....i think u missed out wat i am trying to say.... the conflicts with ahlel bayt (a.s) had supreme importace.... because on one side, we have people who were rated as quite high among the people, and on the other side it there wer da people who were rated very highly among people....if both sides had the best knowledge provided to them by the Prophet (a.s), then one side has to be called mischevios in their behaviour to create conflicts...


From your previous statement I am under the impression that you are most important man in Islamic history becase you claim a ability to judge on sahaba but after asking couple questions I am disappointing day by day,it is pity that I have already prepared a file in which disagreements among da sahaaba mentioned in detail.


if u think Allah (s.w.t) has not shown haq properly to common laymen, then arent u questioning the justice of Allah (s.w.t)??? u dont need rocket science to tell u dat those who disobey the orders of the Prophet (a.s), are not gud muslims...do u???


Brother asda ,Sunni ulama do keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among the muslims ..not only that Sunni ulama do keen deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place in world ..but they are not keen to deduce haq in the battles/conflicts sadly took place among sahaba .


is der a difference between a muslim and the people who were with the Prophet (a.s)??? dint they have desires like us...werent they tested..... so y is it dat they have double standards on this...how can one say they passed their test to their best wen they were not patient.....arent the sahaba considered to be muslims....y is der a big issue to say dat the sahaaba had done zulm...while the Prophet (a.s) can do zulm (maazlallah)???

Because there were so many beautiful cooperation mutual respect ,care & love between Sahaba that battles/conflicts sadly took place among them only occupy little part of their story, Sunni ulama have been focusing this big beautiful picture instead of studying small agurment they have been studying wisdom/ spirituality they learned from our loved prophet .See one are trying to be judge on sahaba,other studying wisdom/ spirituality that sahaba learned from our loved prophet which is better ?


i dont see love at all...even among the so-called ashra mubashara...forget the common people.....

surely islam has many fields to research on....but these are one of the most important subjects....

y is it that uptill now they havent tried to know who was haq in the wars that were fought...in a war, there is one one situation, one is haq and the other is baatil...one done have any other options...ya in small casual fights u can say the case is so so, but wen it comes to people who had directly taken knowledge from Rasoolullah (a.s), i dont think we should close our eyes...
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bullet Posted: 01 November 2008 at 11:39am
#However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba . Did you read my mind ?#

 #wud anybody research on conflicts which does not affect the religion at all.. i mean, do u think u want me to solve their household fights as well...come on....i think u missed out wat i am trying to say.... the conflicts with ahlel bayt (a.s) had supreme importace...#

Brother Asda ,we on the topic of ability to judge on disagreements among da sahaaba   , If a judge only care what he think as important he must leave from his office. as previously mentioned  judges are people who live within  spirituality of constitution . So I am asking you how a person who admit  can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements  Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba ?
I hope  you understand what you are talking about ,from you answer it sound like  Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history is far more important than  constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth. .A sunni Muslim i believe Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba nothing but a part of some conflicts occurred between sahaba so i am treating it as case before the constitution but obviously you are trying to put it upsite down .
Entire human civilization can be understood by constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth but would you try to explain with Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba history ?. I hope you not so much fool .

Before  turn your face to any other direction ,please give your attention to following two points :

(1)claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba accept my file in which disagreements among da sahaaba  mentioned in detail. in your previous post you claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba as long as it concerns with  Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   That means that you are expert on Quran and Hedsth. you are living within  spirituality of constitution othwise you won't be able judge disagreements between Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   & Sahaba as long as it remain as one of the disagreements among da sahaaba
(2)admit you only interest in Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history.this history is far more important than  constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth.











Edited by Uighur - 01 November 2008 at 8:10pm
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 02 November 2008 at 10:37am
Salaams..

i have made myslef clear...but...u have repeated ure queries again and again, and have repeated the same quesries with a bit of different words.....come to da point....
However it is interesting to note that how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba . Did you read my mind ?


this is because the conflicts of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) were related to Islam....as they were not followed after the Prophet's (s.a.w) death as he had commanded the others to....i have studied other conflicts as well....but all of them are relevent to the history of islam...and they are not household matters...


Brother Asda ,we on the topic of ability to judge on disagreements among da sahaaba   , If a judge only care what he think as important he must leave from his office. as previously mentioned judges are people who live within spirituality of constitution . So I am asking you how a person who admit can't judge on disagreements among da sahaaba ,can have authority to talk on disagreements Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba ?


i repeat..Allah (s.w.t) has not kept the Process of finding haq and baatil very hard and something one cannot understand...its just dat one needs to have the will to find the truth...and accept the result..

I hope you understand what you are talking about ,from you answer it sound like Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history is far more important than constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth.

Entire human civilization can be understood by constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth but would you try to explain with Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba history ?


these conflicts are part of interpretation of quran and also involves a study into constitutions of quran and explaination of hadeeth....so..in all...all of these are important....in other ways...ure above query is something like:
"is it important to study the quran or the words of the Prophet???"

the above question is st**id...as both are inter-related....one cannot do one and neglect the other.....


(1)claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba accept my file in which disagreements among da sahaaba mentioned in detail. in your previous post you claim you can judge on disagreements among da sahaaba as long as it concerns with Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   That means that you are expert on Quran and Hedsth. you are living within spirituality of constitution othwise you won't be able judge disagreements between Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   & Sahaba as long as it remain as one of the disagreements among da sahaaba


i can judge between the conflicts related to Ahlel Bayt (a.s)...

wat file are u talking about...i dint get any file with list of disagreements...

2)admit you only interest in Ahlel Bayt (a.s)   vs Sahaba vision of history.this history is far more important than constitution Quran and its explanation Hedeth.


this is a very odd claim i never made...and u want me to claim it to be my words....the history of conflicts of AHLEL BAYT (a.s) is very important...but oviosly, there are other parts of history important as well....specially those discussed in quran.....and all those Prophets (a.s) we know since the time of H.Adam till Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)......


howerver u have got wat i am trying to say...i think u r just trying to buy time by reasking me all dat....
btw just to let u knw....i have a life as well...and have loads of other work to do....my responsibilities and taking care of a lot of stuff...to add to dat i never wish to stop in learning about islam...therefore i have loads of books to read wich are pending.....so please be on point...and dont re-ask stuff....


while doing research on the conflicts i am sure it must have surprised u how much the Ahlel Bayt (a.s) was neglected...and the way they were kept away from spreading the religion....infact wen Imam Ali (a.s) got the khilafat, he was kept busy in wars so dat people stay away from the truth...banu umayyah would have been really hurt wen dey came to know dat Imam Ali (a.s) is on da ruling seat...i am still w8ing to knw da info u have collected...lets see..

Edited by asda - 02 November 2008 at 10:40am
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