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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 7:50am
Salaam'alaikum
br minuteman
from ure post i have understood that u r trying to tell me that the verse is talking about ppl who will serve Allah (s.w.t) only....and will rule as per the rules provided by Allah (s.w.t)...and not bring rules from their pocket...

secondly u say: the way Allah (s.w.t) will make a leader for the muslims is his own choice...and we are not the people to decide on it....it means that ANY WAY THAT ALLAH (S.w.t) CHOOSES..HAS TO BE PLAYED BY THE MUSLIMS ON EARTH...and so has to be accepted by ummah...then one does not have to see if he is a faasiq or not...


but the history is full of people who abused the caliphate....e.g yazeed...

now if u accept that the muslims made abu bakr the caliph, muslims also accepted yazid as the caliph...and the whole umayyad dynasty was accepted by muslims as their leaders...and they were considered as respected leaders of the ummah, weather they were Muttaqqi or faasiq....they way of choosing does not matter to u...

so...how can people who are faasiq lead the ummah(varios examplaes)???? remember that u have already said that "ALLAH WILL MAKE KHILAFAT"...and "THE WAY HAS NOT BEEN MENTIONED"...and if consensus among muslims apply as the WAY...then loads of people accepted yazid and umaayad the abaasid caliph....
HOW CAN ALL THIS HAPPEN ON ALLAH's INSTRUCTIONS...


remember:i am not saying Allah (s.w.t) did not fulfill his promise (maazallah)...but i am trying to say is that the matter of khilafat if made thru consensus has many loop holes....and the deen of Allah (s.w.t) is perfect..



now to br Uighur

u wanted a clear proof from quran with a reputable tafseer..
i am taking the following tafseer from the book asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi....the tafseer is of the verse of Surah Ma'idah...Aayat number 55...

1st we will look into the translation:

Verily, your Wali (authority or guardian) is Allah, His Messenger, and the believers, - those who perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, and they bow down (submit themselves with obedience to Allah in prayer).
Translated by Dr. MT Al-Hilali & Dr. MM Khan


the tafseer of this aayah as given by "asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi"

(Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe…) [5:55>. Said Jabir ibn ‘Abd Allah: “‘Abd Allah ibn Sallam went to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, some people from Banu Qurayzah and Banu’l-Nadir have deserted us and swore not to keep our company. And we cannot keep the company of your Companions due to the distance separating us’. He then complained about the bad treatment he received from the Jews, and so this verse was revealed. When the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, read to him, he said: ‘We accept Allah, His Messenger and the believers as guardians’ ”. Al-Kalbi related something close to this and added that the end of the verse was revealed about ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, for he gave his ring to a beggar while he was bowing during prayer. Abu Bakr al-Tamimi informed us> ‘Abd Allah ibn Muhammad ibn Ja‘far> al-Husayn ibn Muhammad ibn Abi Hurayrah> ‘Abd Allah ibn ‘Abd al-Wahhab> Muhammad ibn al-Aswad> Muhammad ibn Marwan> Muhammad ibn al-Sa’ib> Abu Salih> Ibn ‘Abbas who said: “Accompanied by a group of believers from amongst his people, ‘Abd Allah ibn Sallam came to see the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. They said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, our houses are very far and we have no assembly or a place in which we can gather for chatting. When our people saw that we believed in Allah and His Messenger and confirmed his call, they eschewed us and vowed never to keep our company, speak with us or marry from or into us. This has proved too hard for us’. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, replied: ‘(Your guardian can be only Allah; and His messenger and those who believe)’, up to the end of the verse. Then the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, went out to the mosque. Some people were standing in prayer while others were bowing. He saw a beggar in the mosque and he asked him: ‘Did you get something from anyone?’ The beggar replied: ‘Yes, I got a ring of gold’. The Prophet asked him: ‘Who gave it to you?’ The beggar said: ‘That person who is standing in prayer’, and he pointed to ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib. The Prophet asked him again: ‘In which position did he give it to you?’ The beggar said: ‘He gave it to me while bowing in prayer’. The Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, said ‘Allah is the greatest!’ and then recited (And whoso taketh Allah and His messenger and those who believe for guardian (will know that), lo! the party of Allah, they are the victorious)” [5:56>.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=55&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

note: tafsir of "asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi" is considered to be one of the MAJOR TAFSEER by altafsir.com


thus it should be clear that the WALI (authority or guardian)of believers was declared to be IMAM ALI (A.s)....i dont think there shud be any doubt in it by now...

Edited by asda - 21 October 2008 at 8:39am
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:11am
 asda, I do not want to start any argument with you but you did not understand my point of view. First you should consider the people as pious who are electing or selecting the Khalifah.
 
 It is the people who vote or elect. But because they are practicing believers, the Will of Allah guides them to the right person. That is all and that is what happened in the case of Abu bakr. i would not agree to you if you considered abu bakr as a faasiq.
 
 Please see what you have written. I see that you have wandering ideas, not so mature.
 
 but the history is full of people who abused the caliphate....e.g yazeed...

now if u accept that the muslims made abu bakr the caliph, muslims also accepted yazid as the caliph...and the whole umayyad dynasty was accepted by muslims as their leaders..

so...how can people who are faasiq lead the ummah(varios examplaes)???? remember that u have already said that "ALLAH WILL MAKE KHILAFAT"
 
Muslims did not accept or make Yazid as Khalifah. You know it. Accepting is different. It may be imposed upon them as is clear from the murder of Imam Hussain a.s. Did any one elect Yazeed? No. He was nominated by his father.
 
 Abu bakr or Umar were not nominated by the fathers. It is sure that The prophet did not nominate any one as Khalifah and that was the best. The Ummah was in good shape and with good strength mentally and spiritually. There was no problem and no need to nominate any one.
 
 If the prophet had nominated any one, it would mean that he had no reliance on the Ummah after his death. He had no son. So the question of nominating the son was not there. I hope you will understand that there was absolutely no need for any nomination. In fact nomination would have been harmful, as I had already explained in the case of the nomination of Yazeed as Khalifah. That was not Khilafat at all.
 
 If the election of Hazrat Ali as a Khalifah was alright then the election of Hazrat Abu bakr and Umar was also alright. Am I right. Will you please see that it is Allah who makes a khalifah. He guides the believers to the right person. We cannot say that Allah made a mistake in the case of Hazrat Abu bakr, or Hazrat Abu bakr was more powerful than Allah and Abu bakr thwarted the plan of Allah. That is not possible.
 
 If there is any nomination system or special treatment for any class of people then it would become worse that Hindus Pundit system. The spiritual power will circulate amongst a certain family. That could never be right.
 
 I ask you, do you support the Hindus caste system? Please accept my apology if I have said anything harmful. I admit the high qualities of Hazrat Ali r.a. and those appeared at their right time. He was a staunch supporter of the Khilafat e Rashidah.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 21 October 2008 at 10:56am
br. Minuteman..
u forgot that umar had NOMINATED few ppl who decided AMONG THEMSELVES THE ISSUE OF KHILAFAT...there was no consensus of the ummah used at that time....(infact saqifa happened among few ppl..and not the ummah...but still if u say that it happened between the ummah, then its ure belief...)so WHERE IS CONSENSUS IN NOMINATING UTHMAN BIN AFAN???

now...who told umar to do that...infact did he think that the ummah is a faasiq that they wud not elect the right person????

similarly mu'awiyah nominated yazid....ppl accepted it...they did not revolt against him..some did....AND THEY WERE THE THE FOLLOWERS OF AHLEL BAYT(a.s) .....but the majority had accepted yazid as caliph....and did not participate in the revolt....(by revolt i mean the role of Mukhtar (r.a) to avenge the killer of Imam Hussain (a.s)...as Imam Hussain (a.s) fought in defence....)

and so this issue of khilafat was taken over by banu abbas....now y dont u say that banu abbas was made caliph by Allah (s.w.t) SINCE THE MAJORITY ACCEPTED THEM AS CALIPH.....so...CONSENSUS COMES BACK AGAIN HERE....
Y R U PARTIAL IN URE VIEWS???
so according to u, DID ALLAH (S.w.t) FORGET HIS PROMISE THEN???

i repeat...the khalifa is explicitly appointed by ALLAH (s.w.t)...and this system is not similar to any system which exists 2day......the appointment of people is harmful...as no human is perfect..how can appointment by ALLAH (s.w.t) BE HARMFULL to ummah?????

note:the capital letters above does not mean i am shouting...i am just highlighting some points....i apologise if u thot i was being rude...

Edited by asda - 21 October 2008 at 10:59am
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Uighur
 
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bullet Posted: 22 October 2008 at 12:10am
Brother Asada .
i knew you would come back with that but if you had read my
previous post with little care , you probably answer my actual question instead of showing how knowledgeable you are .But with this information you are indicating that Sahaba were ignorant (at least on the matter of Ali)     because they didn't read tafsir of  asbab al-nuzul by al-wahidi . But how many of them can read ? Interestingly many of the companions of our beloved prophet  can/t read .You may consider them ignorant just because they did not read books you did ...Fanny thing is that many of them  memoried whole Quran by heart  ,they knew which ayat related to which event better than any person who lived after them as they are received knowledge face to face from our beloved prophet .Most importantly  they lived with Quran died with Quran  .Trusting first hand information is common logic to every body on the earth muslim non Muslim alike.  Now some body  named asda come up with claim that He is more alim(scholar) than  Sahaba . Don't you think this claim is funny ?!?
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 22 October 2008 at 3:49pm
br Uighur

i am not here to test my knowledge...
the people u r relying ure debate on were not the People left by the Prophet (s.a.w) for guidence...
i have repeatedly written the hadith where the Prophet (s.a.w) has said that he has left the QURAN AND HIS AHLEL BAYT (a.s) FOR THE UMMAH FOR GUIDENCE....the people who were with the Prophet (s.a.w) are not the people chosen for guidence for varios reasons....

the same group of people u r relying in ure post have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) many times...they have contradicted him and tried to over smart him.... so for those who have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) cannot be guide for the ummah..

the guide has to be perfect, and chosen by Allah (s.w.t)...as He (s.w.t) has done for nations before Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w)...

infact in those days people did surpress the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), and denied the fadhail of Imam Ali (a.s) reaching to people...not only that, they even were termed liars on their claims....while they should have been the source of guidence, people rejected their guidence...

so how can one think these people will do justice with the Ahlel Bayt (a.s)????
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Uighur
 
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bullet Posted: 23 October 2008 at 9:35am

 
Originally posted by asda

br Uighur
i am not here to test my knowledge..

How do you understand  testing knowledge? It is funny you have been doing it while you keep denying. Look yourself more closely . You showed this book that book trying to prove that companions were wrong in the electing Abu Bakir as leader !? Do you know how many companions were there on the earth  when our prophet passed away ?How long these companions had been lived under leadership of Aba Bakir ,Omer ,Osman ?. Their administration had sustained by moral & physical support of companions. This is historical fact that no one can dispute .,, but you are trying to test your poor knowledge...with that .. more you try more you fool yourself  with charging companions with crime & wrong doings untill  end up with horrible clash with authoritic hedeth of our beloved prophet
like that
   
Originally posted by asda

the same group of people u r relying in ure post have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) many times...they have contradicted him and tried to over smart him.... so for those who have disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) cannot be guide for the ummah..

    Brother asda ,we have prophet who tolled us about them, Basic on this most reliable reference we made our view on the Sahaba  ,Are you saying my judgment more reliable than Prophet . First you try to show you more Alim(Schalor) than Sahaba Krim now are you trying to make yourself more important than Prophet? Please do not be such arrogant man .
  
Originally posted by asda

infact in those days people did surpress the Ahlel Bayt (a.s),

   I am sunni Muslim hanifi in fiq but not shia  but you can't image how much i do love  Ahlel Bayt,Ali is part of my heart. Prophet's daughter lady Fatima is one more important than my own son & daughter .You don't need to teach us  about  Ahlel Bayt . In my duwa I always  mention Ahlel Bayt.
  
Originally posted by asda

i have repeatedly written the hadith where the Prophet (s.a.w) has said that he has left the QURAN AND HIS AHLEL BAYT (a.s) FOR THE UMMAH FOR GUIDENCE....the people who were with the Prophet (s.a.w) are not the people chosen for guidence for varios reasons

      Should I mention you how our beloved prophet said about his sunne  ?What is your reaction could be ?Don't you know Muslim can find enough lines in Quran regarding sunne ? Brother  before trying to exchange  these lines with sunni Muslim ,please clean your heart . The way you think is very much dirty ,it hurts Muslims . Cry  If any one insult Lady Fatime  my heart would  be  filled with anger . When I thought of Ali my eyes would be filled with tear . If you are Muslim for years  love to Ahlel Bayt naturaly have been rooted in your soul . Same way these people around our prophet are our most valuable asset of Muslims ,for every knowledge we have today reached us because of the teaching of sahaba .Who did wrong who did't among sahaba  is subject we have no authority to talk about ,it is like layman discussing prefessional mistake of masters . Instead of looking fault of compions just study the way our beloved prophet  treaded sahaba , Have you ever heart prophet charged Abu bakir with wrongdoing ?Did you read a line in which  prophet have  said accuse my sahaba according Quran ? Just contrary  he said we should respect them , avoid our tonguse from them  .


Edited by Uighur - 23 October 2008 at 8:42pm
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:02am
1st of all, lets not abuse each other...by saying that wach other is ignorant....lets think with an open mind bro..

u have carefully tried to praise the Ahlel Bayt (a.s), keeping in mind that u dont indulge in facts which actually goes against the the people who were with the Prophet (a.s)...

how can u be a SINCERE lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u love someone who had denied the Prophet (a.s) to write his will WHICH WOULD HAVE HELPED THEM NOT TO GO ASTRAY???

how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u also love someone who had "angered" by H.Fatima (a.s)...
"Whoever angers Fatima (s.a), has angered me" -Prophet Muhammad (a.s)...

how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt when u support people who went against the sunnah of Prophet (a.s) after his death...hint:bringing bak marwaan bin hakam's family...

how can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u say that Mu'awiyah was right wen he faught BATTLE OF siffeen and BATTLE OF Nahrwaan....

battles are not some small events bro...people get killed...haq or baatil..

How can u be a sincere lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s) when u also support the people who faught the battle of Jamal against Imam Ali (a.s)....

dont u see...whenever there is a conflict between Ahlel Bayt vs others..u support he "others".....did u forget that Prophet (a.s) has said "Ali (a.s) is with HAQ"....dont u think the rest are baatil???....

how can u be a lover of HAQ AND BAATIL AT THE SAME TIME????cuz those who fight haq, are baatil...isnt it??? or is there a fact u dont want to accept???

u say:If any one insult Lady Fatime my heart would be filled with anger .....
i ask: where is this anger when u come to know that she was shown as a lier on her claim of fidak?? wasnt dat an insult?? plese dont be partial...

the point i want to make is that the sahaaba were not sincere...no one can measure knowledge....but sincerity can be seen in ones actions...

y dont u cry for them when u lissen to da above zulm done on them???is this unconditional love???actually muslims should be HURT wen they see the way Ahlel Bayt (a.s) was treated.....
y do u think mu'awiyah, the person u all praise a lot, dint fight Uthman bin affan??? why was he partial??? was it dat he saw Ahlel Bayt (a.s) comming to power at the time of Imam Ali (a.s)??

if are a true lover of Ahlel Bayt (a.s), then it is MUST ON U TO SUPPORT THEIR STANCE IN THE ABOVE MENTIONED CONFLICTS....OTHERWISE...i am really sorry to say....U HAVE FAKE CLAIMS.....

think with an open mind bro....

Edited by asda - 24 October 2008 at 3:10am
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asda
 
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bullet Posted: 24 October 2008 at 3:20am
i just want to add:

is knowledge the criteria for choosing haq or baatil???

surly not...
if u dont know, in many universities in the west, the people who teach islam are non-muslims.... but the fact is that they usually know more about islam then a common muslim does.... so having knowledge is no criteria for a person to be on haq...

knowledge is the source...not a destination!!!!!!!!
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