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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 12:36am

Chrysalis:

Ridiculous. There is a difference b/w people who surrounded the Prophet physically, and those that were his circle of trust. I was clearly referring to the sahaba he trusted, and loved. And it is those sahaba that we take religion from.

The prophet has given all necessary criteria. Unfortunately, many of those whom you think were beloved of the prophet were actually not. This can be understood in so many different confirming ways if one ponders and investigates Quran and history of Islam with deep hindsight. For instance, one who gives authority of governing Muslim society to one whose father used to hate Mohammad (sawa) and whose son eventually kills the beloved grandson of the prophet can by no means be the beloved of the prophet (sawa).

Another example: For everyone who has studied Islamic history it is more than Mutevater and there is no doubt that the prophet used to say Fatima (sa) is part of him and whoever makes her angry makes the prophet angry and whoever hurts her hurts the prophet (sawa). On the other hand, it is also more than Mutevater that after the death of the prophet (sawa) Fatima (sa) was angry with Abu Bakr and was alive only 6 months after the prophet and never spoke to Abu Bakr till she died. One can never say that Mohammad (sawa) loves all companions if they honestly study what has happened.

And it is those sahaba that we take religion from. . . rather than restrict our religion to a favoured, rare few (not to mention imaginery, ordinary, error prone Imams, who will 'come' ages and ages AFTER Prophet Muhamamad perfected Islam)

It seems you misunderstood me. I will talk about 12 Imams but before that regarding the question “After the prophet from whom should we take our religion?” the answer is already given by the prophet. We are not to answer this question because the prophet has already done it perfectly and completely. Whatever criterion the prophet has given is crucial not whatever we imagine.

Also, do not think that you are taking your religion from original companions. Who has taught you Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic hadith book? Those sahabah or prone Imams ages after the prophet?!!!

Just to let you know, the author of Sahih Bukhari was living after 9 or 10 infallible Imams of 12.

So the 12 imams that will eventually come into this world, as ordinary human biengs, are better Muslims than the Prophet's wives and his trusted companions? Your loyalty and trust is misplaced my friend, grossly.

Ordinary human beings? All of them are infallible human beings not ordinary. Furthermore, they have already come. The first three of them are Ali(as), Hasan(as) and Husain(as). The rest are from progeny of Husain (as). All of them are already born and the last one is Mahdi (as) who is alive, who will eventually come and Isa Massih (as) will also come with him and pray behind him.

The misplacement here is that you take your religion from fallible people and suppose infallible guiders as ordinary people ignoring them. This is the gross misplacement Chrysalis.

We do not love anyone that Prophet Muhammad never loved. And we love everyone whom he loved (Abu Bakr, Umar, Usman, Ali, Fatima, Aisha, Hassan, Hussain (R.A) inclusive) There is a difference b/w these Sahaba, and just any random bedoiun/nonmuslim the Prophet may have seen/met/been with (like u suggest)

From the ones you proposed I only love Ali(as), Fatima(as), Hassan(as) and Hussain(as) and the rest is the 9 Imams from Hussain (as) I talked about. They are not random. Mohammad (sawa) has mentioned all of them till Mahdi (as) and has said that Mahdi (as) is from his line and among his progeny. There has not been any randomness from the first day.

This is a typical response the Shia give, when we talk about Prophet Muhammad's Companions and his wives. Apparently, according to you guys, they are to be equated with Munafiqeen? Aazubillah.

Actually this was not what I talked about in my last post. I mentioned the example of Munafighin as a support of my talk to stress that physical being with the prophet does not necessitate righteousness. In fact, I do not need to judge who was a Monafigh and who was not. What I know for sure is that among wives none of them was infallible and was said by the prophet to be followed and unfortunately some of the companions made great mistakes and only those of them who never ignored or forgot the words and wills of Mohammad (sawa) regarding AhlulBayt and Ali (as) stayed non-deviated.

You are suggesting just like Asda, that Prophet Muhamamd nauzubillah had bad judgement, and he married women that were nauzubillah bad muslims, and Allah let him make them Umhat-ul-Momineen.

I am not suggesting what you said. The prophet Mohammad (sawa) in his recitation, saying, and acting completed whatever people had to know. Therefore, there is no room to escape from responsibility. Judgment will be done on the Day of Judgment by Allah (SWT).  Where the prophet said that we should follow and take our religion from his wives? 

Did or did not Prophet Muhamamd have good judgement of people?

As I said the prophet completed what he was supposed to complete by Allah’s will.

Was he not infallible? If he was, then why would he make an error in judging not only one, but several of his beloved companions?

The prophet was infallible and never made any error. He gave the absolute right criteria for after himself. One who does not deceive him/herself would understand the truth. He perfectly introduced infallible Ahlul-Bayt to people. He did not need to judge the Ummah and companions one by one nor did Allah tell him to do so otherwise it would be the Day of Judgment not the freewill and test in this world. Instead of that, Allah (SWT) ordered him to make people know the real guiders for after him and he did it completely. That was what people need to know and he completed it.

Was not Allah responsible in correcting Prophet Muhammad if he nazubillah committed a mistake?

As I said the prophet exactly did what Allah wanted him to do without one moment of deviation.

Would Allah let 'evil' 'munafiq' people influence the Prophet?

No body influenced the prophet and no body could stop him from what Allah wanted him to do and say.

Trust in Allah and His judgement, and His Prophet's judgement, and accept the facts. . .

Thanks Chrysalis. Alhamdolellah, What I say in my posts are with full trust in Allah and his prophet. I honestly say my reasoning provided with evidences. There is no enforcement in belief system and we have freewill in this regard. Now you may say “To you be your Way, and to me mine”. I would accept it and we will wait till the day on which everything will be clear.

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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 02 March 2009 at 12:38am

Usmani:

few yours matter you have provided  the sources of these are not famous and unknown to me.

Although famousness can not necessarily mean righteousness, but the references that I provided in this thread which reported that wives are excluded are the following:

Sahih Al-Tirmidhi,

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim,

Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn al-Athir,

Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by al-Suyuti,

Tafsir al-Tabari

A reader with basic knowledge would know whether the above references are famous or not.

The other references (which say that Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Hussain (as) are the meaning of the purification verse) do not consider wives included and they are from Sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi and so on.

How do you sure that it has nothing to do with purification verse

First, literally it is not referring to this verse of Quran. Second, the purification verse is talking about absolute and complete purification which is called infallibility and from Quran we know that the wives do not have such purification.

how do you explain that ahle bayt has two meanings one is with the wife and other without wife? Please provide the support of Arabic grammar in yours reply.

Support of Arabic grammar can be obviously found in the purification verse. It can never mean anything other than infallibility. No honest Arabic linguist can carry out legal purification from its meaning nor can an intellect confirm any sign of legal purification in this verse unless those who want to deceive themselves.

In this matter, Shall I provide support of Arabic grammar better than what Mohammad (sawa) said? Read the following:

The Messenger of Allah recited "Verily Allah intends to keep off from you every kind of uncleanness O' People of the House (Ahlul-Bayt), and purify you a perfect purification". (Quran, the last sentence of Verse 33:33) and then the Messenger of Allah said: "Thus Me and my Ahlul-Bayt are clear from sins."

Sahih al-Tirmidhi

Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthoor, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, under the commentary of Verse 33:33 of Quran

Sahih Bukhari is the most authentic ahadith book only.

The authenticity of a hadith can be understood only from detail historical study through the chain of the narrators of that hadith and the fact that whether the hadith is in line with Quran or not to get sure that the hadith is word of an infallible. In this regard all ahadith are potentially questionable. Do not make an exception for yourself. Bukhari was a Muslim scholar who was a fallible person and collected some ahadith in a book about 200 years after the prophet (sawa), nothing more.

Further more for the infallibility of Prophet(pbuh) there could be lots of verses of Quran be seen which are directly or indirectly showing the infallibility.

Yes, but you claim that infallibility must be only the hallmark of a prophet. How do you support this claim?

Could you bring a single verse where it is showing the infallibility of four of ahle bayt as you claimed,apart from 33:33 where Allah talking to the wives(Umahatul Momaneen).

I brought one (the last part of 33:33). Our argumentation is written in this thread and everyone can read it and ponder if they would like to.

If the Prophet(pbuh) did not told us about four are also ahle bayt no one can know it from Quran.

That is the same for many other things in Quran. For example, if the prophet had not told us and shown us how to pray we couldn’t understand it from Quran. That is why I believe that only-Quran Muslims are greatly deviated.

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Usmani
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bullet Posted: 04 March 2009 at 5:04am

Myahya

Quote:-The other references (which say that Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Hussain (as) are the meaning of the purification verse) do not consider wives included and they are from Sahih Muslim, Tirmidhi and so on.

>>>I have posted a bukhari hadith before now there is one from muslim.

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim by Zayd ibn Arqam (رضّى الله عنه) that the Prophet’s wives are part of the Ahlel Bayt. In Sahih Muslim (Book 31, Chapter 4, Hadith-5920)

I hope you know the status of sahih bukhari and sahih muslim for a sunni.Both are saying the same thing.As far as the cloak hadith of sahih muslim and termidhi, you are taking some meaning which not there at all,(that the wives are not included) and not realizing yours mistake.

Quote:-First, literally it is not referring to this verse of Quran. Second, the purification verse is talking about absolute and complete purification which is called infallibility and from Quran we know that the wives do not have such purification.

>>>If he (pbuh) is not referring the verse so what, it is good enough to know that Prophet called them ahle bayt.

Quote: Second, the purification verse is talking about absolute and complete purification which is called infallibility.

>>>Any prove of it please share with us.

I said:-how do you explain that ahle bayt has two meanings one is with the wife and other without wife? Please provide the support of Arabic grammar in yours reply.

You said:-Support of Arabic grammar can be obviously found in the purification verse. It can never mean anything other than infallibility

>>>I have read all of your reply but found no answer of a simple question.Ponder please.

Quote:-The authenticity of a hadith can be understood only from detail historical study through the chain of the narrators of that hadith and the fact that whether the hadith is in line with Quran or not to get sure that the hadith is word of an infallible. In this regard all ahadith are potentially questionable. Do not make an exception for yourself. Bukhari was a Muslim scholar who was a fallible person and collected some ahadith in a book about 200 years after the prophet (sawa), nothing more.

So What about Quran, it is also transmitted to us by fallible people like ahadith and not through infallible.The initial compiling of Quran carried out by Hazrat Abu bakr time(RA) on the advised by Hazrat Umer(RA).

Quote:-Yes, but you claim that infallibility must be only the hallmark of a prophet. How do you support this claim?

Lots of verses of Quran and ahdith are there which shows that Prophet(pbuh) was infallible.

And he (the Prophet (Sallallaho Alaihe Wassallam) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

Say: This is my way. I call to Allâh with sure knowledge, I and whoever follows me. (12:108)

I said:-Could you bring a single verse where it is showing the infallibility of four of ahle bayt as you claimed,apart from 33:33 where Allah talking to the wives(Umahatul Momaneen).

You said:-I brought one (the last part of 33:33). Our argumentation is written in this thread and everyone can read it and ponder if they would like to.

>>>So you don’t have single verse.As far as the last part of 33:33,remember that the next verse 33:34 start with “and” it shows the continuity from the previous verse’s last part as you referred, further more it is also address to the wives(Allah bless them all) as well,ponder please.

Quote:-That is the same for many other things in Quran. For example, if the prophet had not told us and shown us how to pray we couldn’t understand it from Quran. That is why I believe that only-Quran Muslims are greatly deviated.

 

>>>I am fully agreed with you on that.But I don’t see much difference between only Quran muslims and shite muslim honestly.Shite Muslims also did not follow most of the ahadith even which are not against the Quran as well.You have yours reasons and they have their reasons.See what you have said for bukhari.

Bukhari was a Muslim scholar who was a fallible person and collected some ahadith in a book about 200 years after the prophet (sawa), nothing more.

>>>I have seen them giving almost the same remarks about bukhari. 

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 09 March 2009 at 3:53am

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim by Zayd ibn Arqam

From Zayd ibn Arqam in Sahih Muslim there is also one hadith in which he says wives are not included. What do you mean? Is this another hadith in the same book, Sahih Muslim saying the reverse?!!

As far as the cloak hadith of sahih muslim and termidhi, you are taking some meaning which not there at all

Which of the cloak ahadith is including wives? You are taking some meaning which is not there simply because you pre-assume that wives must be already included in the meaning of that verse of Quran without any reasonable justification and without pondering that such pre-assumption contradicts Quran and Sunnah because the meaning of purification verse is infallibility.

it is good enough to know that Prophet called them ahle bayt.

It is good to know that if we take the meaning of ahle bayt in this hadith the same as the meaning of it in purification verse, then it contradicts Quran, and many other ahadith from sahih Muslim, Thirmidhi, and so on. Therefore, the meaning of ahle bayt (if it is literally mentioned in Arabic version of hadith) is not the same as its meaning in purification verse if the hadith is authentic. You can not scarify everything even Quran and all other ahadith in Islam for the sake of Sahih Bukhari.

Any prove of it please share with us.

So far I have presented my proofs. For instance, in my last post, I brought its meaning by clear words of Mohammad (sawa) from Sahih Thirmidhi and Tafsir Dorrol Mansur Syuti.

You should provide a proof if it is legal purification.

So What about Quran, it is also transmitted to us by fallible people like ahadith and not through infallible.The initial compiling of Quran carried out by Hazrat Abu bakr time(RA) on the advised by Hazrat Umer(RA).

I do not believe so. Quran was written at the time of the prophet and was collected by the prophet himself at the time of revelation. No intellect can accept that the prophet spent years leading Muslims and letting them write and memorize the verses of Quran but did never collect them till his death.

Lots of verses of Quran and ahdith are there which shows that Prophet(pbuh) was infallible.

Infallibility is not ONLY for prophet so that you can never say anyone who is not a prophet should necessarily be fallible. The reverse, however, can be proved from Quran.

remember that the next verse 33:34 start with “and” it shows the continuity from the previous verse’s last part as you referred, further more it is also address to the wives(Allah bless them all) as well,ponder please.

I have talked about the relation between 33:34 and last part of 33:33. It is obvious. Last part of 33:33 is revealed in the house of the wives and recited to them. In 33:34 it is telling wives to keep in mind what is recited to them in their house. That is why it is started with “and”.

But I don’t see much difference between only Quran muslims and shite muslim honestly.Shite Muslims also did not follow most of the ahadith even which are not against the Quran as well.You have yours reasons and they have their reasons.See what you have said for bukhari.

Actually what you say for Sahih Bukhari proves that you do not follow most of the ahadith. You can easily refuse other ahadith no matter how much they are directly referring to the matter in hand, how authentic they are, how much inline with Quran they are only for the sake of Sahih Bukhari arguing that Sahih Bukhari must be the most authentic book. Where the prophet or Quran told Muslims to choose a hadith book and call it the most authentic book? Interesting thing is that you claim to be Ahlol-Jamaa’ah while you prefer a single hadith book to everything. I have been much more Ahlol-Jamaa’ah than you in this discussion on purification verse with a variety of ahadith I have referred to. Meanwhile, I have not presented a single hadith from Shia sources because apparently you reject all of them out of bias. Is what you are doing the meaning of being Ahlol-Jamaa’ah?

Edited by myahya - 09 March 2009 at 3:57am
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Usmani
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bullet Posted: 11 March 2009 at 10:13pm
myahaya,
 

Quote:-It is good to know that if we take the meaning of ahle bayt in this hadith the same as the meaning of it in purification verse, then it contradicts Quran, and many other ahadith from sahih Muslim, Thirmidhi, and so on. Therefore, the meaning of ahle bayt (if it is literally mentioned in Arabic version of hadith) is not the same as its meaning in purification verse if the hadith is authentic. You can not scarify everything even Quran and all other ahadith in Islam for the sake of Sahih Bukhari.

>>>You are saying this because yours understanding is that the ahle bayt are infallible, otherwise there is nothing wrong in this hadith.One mistake lead to many other mistakes. You need to do a thorough study of the yours understanding of infallibility of Ahle bayt.Mufti Shafi has explained it in his Ahkam ul Quran.

Engage your self in good deeds,otherswise yours nafs will engage you in bad deeds
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Fatah-Momin
 
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bullet Posted: 11 June 2009 at 9:23pm
My Questions to Shia:
1. Was Aya 33:33  revealed  before or after Hadith of Blanket?
2: Were Shia imams purified at birth or after this aya was revealed?

I hope some educated Shia member will nswer these questions.
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myahya
 
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bullet Posted: 26 August 2009 at 6:39am

Was Aya 33:33 revealed before or after Hadith of Blanket?

The Hadith is performed upon the revelation of 33:33.

Were Shia imams purified at birth or after this aya was revealed?

I believe that they were already purified.
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Moses
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bullet Posted: 02 September 2009 at 10:50am
Originally posted by Ya Sayedi

............

I wonder y many people hate /dislike our Prophet MUHAMMED(Sallau-aliya-wali-wasalm) where infact this entire Universe was created for him.

................

Is anybody hate of him?!! how you can approve that the Universe created for him?!!!!! God says himself?! where ?
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