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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Jesus' Great Commandments: The Bridge? Post Reply Post New Topic
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YieldedOne
 
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Quote YieldedOne Replybullet Posted: 03 March 2011 at 4:00pm

Honeto:
First, the command of living in peace with others that I follow as a Muslim is not somthing that I take from the Bible rather the Final Testament, The Quran, which in my observation and examination proved to be more reliable and authentic then the modified versions left with us of what was revealed before it.  Islam's message through Quran is that of peace and justice, peace an individual achieves and that what radiates outward from the heart of a believer toward all created beings.

Well, that's awesome that, as a Muslim being obedient to the Quran, you seek to promote peace and justice.  That's great. Smile

But none of that has to do with the substance (or lack thereof) of the line of thought I'm setting forth. I understand that you hold the Quran to be the "Final Testament".  At the same time, it seems that  a "true Muslim" (per Hammudat Abd Al-Ati) is bound by that same "Final Testament" to hold authentic Torat and Injeel as authoritative Muslim faith.  Please look at his statements again.  Do you disagree with his (and others') assessment on that score?

 

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Honeto:
In Islam we believe that what the last Prophet (pbuh) taught was no different than what Isa (pbuh) or prophets taught before him. Do we have with us today what previous prophets were given as word of God pure and unaltered. A simple obeservation reveals the true answer.

That's what Maulana Maududi's commentary is supposed to be helpful for: helping to discern the authentic, discoverable Torat and Injeel from the inauthentic.  I'm using HIS criteria here.  Do you disagree with Mr. Maududi's commentary and what it says?

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 07 March 2011 at 1:54pm
Dear Newbie,
The Quran is the final word, anyone including myself may not fully grasp it, we can only have a clear intention of understanding, beleiving and living by it.
On the issues that the Quran has clearly solved for us, we need not to find mystry or other meaings that we will prefer to see in it. That will be covering up the truth when it is made clear to us.
On the issue of Torat and Injeel, yes we beleive that they were from God, not because anyone else told us, no, rather God Almighty has told us that through His Final Word, the Quran.
God Almighty tells us through His Final Word, the Quran that people changed word of God and altered the scriptures sent before the Quran. I take Quaran's word as Final, and my own study of the Bible proved that Bible is the altered word and thus unreliable.
God Almighty has sent His Final Word the Quran as source and guidance from the All knowing. What there is left to figure out other than to follow what it says. 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 07 March 2011 at 2:07pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote YieldedOne Replybullet Posted: 07 March 2011 at 4:27pm

Honeto:
The Quran is the final word, anyone including myself may not fully grasp it, we can only have a clear intention of understanding, beleiving and living by it.  On the issues that the Quran has clearly solved for us, we need not to find mystry or other meaings that we will prefer to see in it. That will be covering up the truth when it is made clear to us.

Sure.  And one of the things that is crystal clear in the Quran is that Jesus is a Messenger and Prophet of God whom Allah himself had given "the Scripture" (19:27-29)...even as he reaffirmed what came before him (61:6).

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Honeto:
On the issue of Torat and Injeel, yes we beleive that they were from God, not because anyone else told us, no, rather God Almighty has told us that through His Final Word, the Quran.

Exactamundo.


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Honeto:
God Almighty tells us through His Final Word, the Quran that people changed word of God and altered the scriptures sent before the Quran. I take Quaran's word as Final, and my own study of the Bible proved that Bible is the altered word and thus unreliable.

That's why the Maududi commentary is so important.  He specifically lays out what is reliable and what is not reliable.  Unless someone wants to say that he is not a true authority for healthy Muslim theology, I don't see why they wouldn't take what he had to say on the matter seriously.

Again, do you disagree with Mr Maududi's persepective?

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Honeto:
God Almighty has sent His Final Word the Quran as source and guidance from the All knowing. What there is left to figure out other than to follow what it says.

Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."

From what I'm understanding of this passage, it's saying that the Muslim believes equally in the prophetic truths of Moses and Jesus as prophets of God.  So, if Jesus is a prophet of God from the Quran's perspective...and Quranically speaking, a Muslim is supposed to be believing in "what was revealed" to Moses and Jesus...and if good reason can be shown justifying the belief that what was "revealed" to Moses was the "Great Commandments" taught by Jesus, is there reason to completely ignore the teaching of a sinless Prophet that is venerated so highly?  That doesn't make much sense to me...but that's just me.

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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 March 2011 at 8:13pm
Newbie,
I think you are just misunderstanding my point or just want to impose your's.
The affirmation of the Quran about previous prophets and revelations is jsut that. That we know and beleive that God is the one who sent all those prophets and books since Adam. In total, according to a saying of the Prophet(pbuh), some 124000 prophets were sent and there were many books sent by God through these prophets.
Yes we beleive that all of those prophets and those books came from God but each one for their time and not that all of those books were for all times. In other words, if we take the last Prophet (pbuh) and book, the Quran, they were sent for our times. Those of us who were born after him and the Quran sent through him will be judged by it's teachings and standards. It is the book according to which we aught to live out lives. Now those who were born before the revelation of the Quran will be judged on the bases of what was revealed for that time through Pophet Jesus (pbuh).
So, we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament, the Quran and the hadith beside's the example of the Prophet (pbuh)himself, and these are the only valid sources for our times upon which we will be judged. Any other source is invalid, and will be like sitting in an exam in 2011 but studyng the syllabus from 1811. Not only that but fact is that the Quran and Old Testament tells us that those Scriptures has been tempered with, which can be easily varified by anyone's sincere efforts and just a few examples of inconsistancies would prove the point. We all know and beleive that a pure word of God would not fail to be consistant.
 
Also, on one of your points in the first post on this page about God's love, kindness and Mercy with which I greatly agree but interestingly that is very inconsistant with Christianity's doctrine of so called "killing and blood sacrifice of Christ' as the only way to attonment and salvation for others. I don't see any Love, Peace or Mercy in that act of shedding blood!! Help me undrstand??
Hasan 
 


Edited by honeto - 09 March 2011 at 8:44pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote YieldedOne Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2011 at 10:58am

I appreciate the interaction, Honeto.  Sweet.

Honeto:
In other words, if we take the last Prophet (pbuh) and book, the Quran, they were sent for our times. Those of us who were born after him and the Quran sent through him will be judged by it's teachings and standards. It is the book according to which we aught to live out lives. Now those who were born before the revelation of the Quran will be judged on the bases of what was revealed for that time through Pophet Jesus (pbuh).

So, we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament, the Quran and the hadith beside's the example of the Prophet (pbuh)himself, and these are the only valid sources for our times upon which we will be judged.

Let's say that as a "person of the Book", specifically a Christian, I look at the Quran as the standard for "our time", ok?  Let's see what I see...

"And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil)."

"Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."

Now, this is what I get from this verse...and you can tell me if I'm wrong on this...

Whoever the "people of the Gospel" are need to "judge" themselves by what Allah has revealed within Jesus' Gospel and God's revelations "therein."  That's just what it says, right?  I can't see any other translation for what else that could mean. If you are a "person of the Gospel", you are Quranically bound to "judge" yourself by the Gospel of Jesus.  That's what the text simply says.

Being as Jesus and his Gospel fits your criteria (ie. "we can follow the examples of any prophets that are mentioned in the Final Testament...", then I can follow the example of Jesus as Prophet of God just fine.

And thanks to the scholarly work of Maulana Maududi, I am able to reasonably discern what that Gospel most likely was.


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Honeto:
Not only that but fact is that the Quran and Old Testament tells us that those Scriptures has been tempered with, which can be easily varified by anyone's sincere efforts and just a few examples of inconsistancies would prove the point. We all know and beleive that a pure word of God would not fail to be consistant.

For the sake of argument, I am taking it as TRUE that "tahrif" exists, that the Scriptures have been "tampered with."  I'm not even arguing that point.  What I'm saying--AGAIN--is that Mr. Maududi, whom I'm told is a very reputable Muslim authority on the Quran and other Holy writing, has provided a commentary method of discern what the authentic Torat and Injeel are.  These are HIS WORDS...

"Wherever authors and editors of the Bible have added anything of their own accord, by way of either elaboration or elucidation, it has become very difficult for an ordinary reader to distinguish the original from the explanatory additions. Those with insight into Divine Scripture, however, do have the capacity to distinguish between the original revealed fragments and the later, human interpolations."

This is Mr. Maududi HIMSELF.  Do you disagree with his perspective, Honeto.  I've asked you that a number of times and have failed to get an answer.  It's pretty important to the discussion though.

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Honeto:
Also, on one of your points in the first post on this page about God's love, kindness and Mercy with which I greatly agree but interestingly that is very inconsistant with Christianity's doctrine of so called "killing and blood sacrifice of Christ' as the only way to attonment and salvation for others. I don't see any Love, Peace or Mercy in that act of shedding blood!! Help me undrstand??

My "first point" is specifically talking about the Great Commandments (ie Deut 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:9-18).  I am not talking about the relationship of blood sacrifices and God's love. (Then we'd be talking about the whole Old Testament sacrificial system, which takes us far afield.)  Let's stick with that.

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Quote YieldedOne Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2011 at 2:14pm
More Maududi...

From the Note on Quran 3:3...

--------------------------------

The Old Testament was compiled by Ezra, when the Israelites returned home to Jerusalem after their captivity in Babylon and built the Temple anew. Ezra gathered together some prominent men of his community, and with their help compiled the whole history of Israel which now comprises the first 17 books of the Bible. Of these Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronorny tell the life history of Prophet Moses and include those verses of the real Taurat which became available to Ezra and his assistants, who incorporated them in those books at appropriate places in the chronological order of their revelation. Thus it is obvious that the Pentateuch as a whole is not the Taurat but includes it. The real Taurat comprises those verses which are scattered all over the life story of Prophet Moses, and it is not difficult even today to locate and recognize them. Such portions where the author says, "God said to Moses," or Moses said, The Lord your God says," the Taurat begins, and where the narrative of the life story is resumed, there that part of the Taurat ends. At those places the author of the Bible has inserted certain things by way of explanation or commentary, and it is here that the ordinary reader fails to distinguish the real Taurat from the commentary. However, those who have an insight into the nature of Divine Scriptures, can distinguish, to some degree of exactness, the explanatory. notes from the revealed verses.

According to the Qur'an, only such scattered portions in the Pentateuch are the Taurat and it confirms them alone. And this can be testified by putting together these verses and comparing them with the Qur'an. Here and there one might come across a minor difference in their details, but one cannot find even the slightest difference between the fundamental teachings of the two. Even today one can see clearly that both the Scriptures have come from the same source.

Likewise, the Injil is the name of those inspired discourses and sayings which Jesus (Allah's peace be upon him) uttered as a prophet during the last couple of years of his life. We have no means now of ascertaining whether these pious utterances were recorded and compiled during the lifetime of Jesus. In the introduction to his translation of the Bible, Moffat says, "Jesus wrote nothing and for a time his immediate disciples felt no impulse to write any account of him. The data of the historical Jesus, therefore is based on the vivid recollections and traditions of the primitive Palestinian disciples. How soon their materials took written shape we cannot tell, but at least one written record of them was probably in existence by about A.D.50." Anyhow, when, long after his recall, the stories of Jesus were compiled in the shape of four Gospels, (the period of the composition of Mark, the tirst to be composed was 65-75 A.D.), some of his written or inspired sayings were also inserted at appropriate places in the historical sketches. Thus it is obvious that the first four Gospels are not the Injil, the discourses and sayings of Jesus, but they contain it. We have no means of recognizing thetas from the works of the authors except this: Wherever the authors say "Jesus said so or taught so and so," there the Injil begins and where they resume the narration, there it ends. According to the Qur'an, only such portions are the Injil and these alone are condensed by it. If these portions are compiled together and compared with the Qur'an, one will tied no serious difference between the two, and, if somewhere a trivial difference appears, it can be removed very easily with unbiased thinking.

-------------------------------------------

Does anyone here disagree with Mr. Maududi's view on this? If so, why?

*****************

"And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying...": Leviticus 19:1

“Now this is the commandment, the statutes and the rules that the Lord your God commanded me to teach you, that you may do them in the land to which you are going over, to possess it: Deuteronomy 6:1


But when the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he (Jesus) said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”: Matthew 22:34-40


Edited by YieldedOne - 10 March 2011 at 2:16pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2011 at 8:50pm
Newbie,
I diagree with that statement if that's what M.Maududi has said about Torah. If those are his words I must disagree with him as I disagree with you that Torah and Gospel are not in their pure form like when they were revealed by God, even though that statment can be interpreted in many different ways. I would like you to explain what you take out of it?
M. Maududi is a man and I respect him for that and for being a believer in One and Only God. He also has a right to say things and write about them, like many of us. Yes I agree he was a learned man. God knows the best about him and about all of us. But still he was like anyone of us, if anyone of us is sincere in their faith, that's the only degree that raise one over the other, and that is only after the All Knowing will reveal the truth about each one of us on the day of Judgement and declare that level of degree. Only then we will know where ourself and others stand.
 
I would like to ask you one thing, did M. Maududi ever agreed to the idea that Jesus was son of God and that God is three in one? or did he clearly deny that and stood up for the Absolute Oness of God without any partners in Godhead? do you also listen to other things he has to say or you only chose what favors you pointof view??
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote YieldedOne Replybullet Posted: 10 March 2011 at 10:12pm
Wow.
 
Honeto:
I disagree with that statement if that's what M.Maududi has said about Torah. If those are his words I must disagree with him as I disagree with you that Torah and Gospel are not in their pure form like when they were revealed by God, even though that statment can be interpreted in many different ways. I would like you to explain what you take out of it?
M. Maududi is a man and I respect him for that and for being a believer in One and Only God. He also has a right to say things and write about them, like many of us. Yes I agree he was a learned man. God knows the best about him and about all of us. But still he was like anyone of us, if anyone of us is sincere in their faith, that's the only degree that raise one over the other, and that is only after the All Knowing will reveal the truth about each one of us on the day of Judgement and declare that level of degree. Only then we will know where ourself and others stand.
 
Hmmmm...you know who this guy is, right?  He's a heavyweight, I thought.  On what basis do you disagree with his scholarly assessment?
 
******************************
 
Honeto:
I would like to ask you one thing, did M. Maududi ever agreed to the idea that Jesus was son of God and that God is three in one? or did he clearly deny that and stood up for the Absolute Oness of God without any partners in Godhead? do you also listen to other things he has to say or you only chose what favors you pointof view??
 
1) Of course, Mr Maududi wasn't trinitarian.  That seems patently obvious.
 
2) Favor my point of view?  From what I understand, Maududi's scholarly work and commentaries are FOR MUSLIMS to better practice their own faith.  I'm only using resources that would be valid for thoughtful Muslims. i don't see anything wrong with that.


Edited by YieldedOne - 11 March 2011 at 6:31am
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