Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Science & Technology
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology
Message Icon Topic: Clones - no souls? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 2 Next >>
Author Message
ummziba
Female  Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1158
Quote ummziba Replybullet Topic: Clones - no souls?
    Posted: 07 August 2005 at 7:52am

Assalamu alaikum,

I suppose no one will be able to actually answer this question (or maybe someone can?), but, I was wondering about clones.  Despite the fact that most religious people think cloning a bad idea, some seem determined to go ahead and carry out these experiments, the latest an afghan hound puppy.

It is my understanding that Allah causes a persons soul to enter their body in the womb (around 140 days gestation?).  My question is: would a cloned human being have a soul?  If so, how?  If not, pretty scary to think soul-less people may soon be walking around.

Please do not make this thread an endless argument for or against cloning .  Kindly start your own thread for that!  I am only interested in the aspect of the soul.  It really frightens me to think scientists may create cloned humans and I don't see how they could have a soul.  Such an evil thing...

Peace, ummziba.



Edited by ummziba
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
IP IP Logged
Rose
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 167
Quote Rose Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2005 at 8:07am

Salaam ummziba,

Originally posted by ummziba

It is my understanding that Allah causes a persons soul to enter their body in the womb (around 140 days gestation?).  My question is: would a cloned human being have a soul?  If so, how?  If not, pretty scary to think soul-less people may soon be walking around.

How can a clonad human have a soul? That is far beyond belief, but then again Allah (swt) is capable of anything.

This is an interesting subject. We have heard that there was cloning but it was never seen to be true but all talk.

I will get back to you on that subject,...

Peace

 

 

A thorn defends the rose,harming only those who would steal the blossom
IP IP Logged
Rose
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 167
Quote Rose Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2005 at 10:46am

Salaam,

This is something I read.

Many religious philosophies teach, for example, that human life is unique and special and should be created, determined and controlled only by their deities. Many religions believe in the existence of, and in the individuality of, a human soul. Many Christians, for example, will be concerned about whether it will be possible to clone the human soul, along with the human. If it is possible to clone the soul, what will this mean? Can a clone without a soul be destroyed and not offend moral or religious beliefs? Cloning will be divined by many as humans assuming the powers, the providence, and the jurisdiction of their deities or other spiritual powers of their supernatural universe.

The stances of some prominent religious groups:

The Catholic Church

John Paul II released a statement condemning the cloning of all life forms. The Vatican also issued a statement that only condemned human cloning, but did not address any other forms.

Sunni Islam

Abdelmo'ti Bayyumi theologian from Al-Azhar University, declared it is forbidden to clone animals under Islamic law. However, some Muslims have testified to the National Bioethics Advisory Committee that they feel cloning might be allowed if it produced ways to counteract infertility.

Church of England Board of Social Responsibility

Mary Seller stated: 'The antics of a few cranks and Hitler types' should not impede cloning research. 'Cloning, like all science, must be used responsibly. Cloning humans is not desirable. But cloning sheep does have its uses.'

World Council of Churches

Martin Robra, executive secretary stated: The council would prefer a moratorium until all ethical questions can be resolved.

Judaism

The Chief Rabbi of Israel, Meir Law, stated that the cloning of any creature is against Jewish law. However, some believe cloning in order to produce better food and medication would be allowable in Jewish tradition.

I wonder, if a human is cloned, is it right to experiment it, how will it grow, how long will it live? How will it live? Does it have a mother and father? 

Allah says: "He is the one who shapes you in the wombs as He pleases. There is no God but He, the Mighty, the Wise." [Srah l `Imrn: 6]

Allah says: "Call them by the names of their fathers; that is more just with Allah." [Srah al-Ahzab: 5] The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "Whoever knowingly claims that someone besides his real father is his father will be forbidden to enter Paradise." [Sahh al-Bukhr and Sahh Muslim] With a clone, we do not have even that. Who is the cloned childs mother or father? The child is genetically almost identical to the person it was cloned from. It is not the result of a mother and father who each contribute to the child half of its total chromosomal makeup, since only one person contributed the full set of chromosomes. Therefore, as Islam understands the terms mother and father, a cloned child would not have a mother or father. Instead, it would have a single 'nuclear donor. If a man cloned himself, we could neither call the child his son nor the son of the woman who gave birth to him. The child would most closely resemble his twin brother! However he will not be the mans brother since he did not come from that mans parents. The child would be neither his son nor his brother, but an entirely new type of relationship: his clone. This relationship is not and cannot be recognized by Islamic Law. The clone will still be a human being with the rights, dignity, and sacredness of a human being, but he will be a human being without a lineage

So, say a human was cloned, it has all the DNA of the person it was cloned from, therefore, it has all characteristics, in thinking too... Then I ask myself, How its "soul" will be punished in the after world, when all characteristics are not really his?

I think it is too big of a subject, and we will never know until it happens, if it happens.

Peace.

 

A thorn defends the rose,harming only those who would steal the blossom
IP IP Logged
Lehua
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 04 July 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 37
Quote Lehua Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2005 at 11:07am

Salaam,

I think we should look at it in more simpler terms.  If Allah(swt) allows us to clone a human, wouldn't He provide a soul for it?

And to the question of who is the mother/father, wouldn't it be the mother/father who originally gave the chromosomes to the person being cloned? 

From what I have researched, a clone is only indentical on the DNA level and thier is a significant difference in charcter and appearance.

Just a side note, I do not advocate cloning.

Lehua

IP IP Logged
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2005 at 4:57pm

As'Salaamu Alaikum Ya Muslimeen!

I agree with Lehua, that the duplication using the donated DNA of a human would perhaps generate the soul of course by God's command. I believe that since the soul embodies the human body I believe that the soul exist within the human body's particulars and if the cells are extracted from the human body to make clones I believe the extraction of those cells contain "reminents of a spiritual being." I believe just those reminents alone can perhaps generate a soul.  As Allah says in the Qur'an that he has created human kind when it was nothing! so it is perhaps logical to say that even minute organism within the human body themselves contain fragments of the soul. But however I do not like to look at the soul as fragments but merely an explanation of how divine the particular organism of the body are.

It is however my belief that every transient being has a soul even the planets have a soul. I doubt that my belief is alien to Islam as we see in the Qur'an that all of life (outside the human category) submits to Allah. To submit requires the ability to do through action. If the Qur'an explains that all of life including the universe (as the Qur'an calls primitive gases smoke) to "come together" and it obeys I believe that this requires a a transient being to commence in this action. It's arrogant to think that only humans have souls. because from vegatation to animals to us we all are linked through the nafs.



Edited by Israfil
IP IP Logged
firewall
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 06 November 2004
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 215
Quote firewall Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2005 at 4:50am


Edited by firewall
IP IP Logged
Rose
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 07 July 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 167
Quote Rose Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2005 at 5:48am

Salaam,

Isfarfil, you said everything has a soul, I think so too in some way. You would eat a cloned animal (like a sheep for ex.)? We are eating some vegetation man put together (of course by Allah (swt) commands). We hear a man planted some tomatoes ('cause there is a seed), and Allah gave us this to be greatful to him. And no ever we heard a man "planting" a human

Only God knows, what will happen.

Peace

A thorn defends the rose,harming only those who would steal the blossom
IP IP Logged
ummziba
Female  Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 16 March 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1158
Quote ummziba Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2005 at 7:29am

Assalamu alaikum,

I like what Sister firewall says about this would only happen if Allah wills it so.  So, it would be fair to assume that if human cloning ever did happen, it would only be by the will of Allah (as all things are) and therefore the Most Merciful would provide that unfortunate clone with a soul of its own, as Sister Lehua stated.

I know some would say this is just a waste of time, but, I can't help but worry over the condition of such an unfortunately "born" creature.  It is comforting to think that Allah is the best of planners, so whatever does happen, ma'ashallah.

Hmmm...interesting stuff ! 

Peace, ummziba.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but your words...they break my soul ~
IP IP Logged
Page  of 2 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com