IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Ethics of unmanned or drone weapon systems

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 06 January 2011 at 5:36pm

It was none of your cotton picken business when I am addressing others, let abuayisha and Divya to respond to my rejoinder...

Are you saying the missiles fired by the drones can be recalled?
I will address the ethic part...

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 06 January 2011 at 5:55pm

Originally posted by Gibbs

But however this same moral equation can be application to those executing a prisoner by firing squad. Of course you can have the "other" put blanks in your gun but your intent is to take a human life. Now, with respect to military the equation if more complex because if your target is one person, you must be absolutely sure he (or she) is responsible for which death is justified.

Good point.

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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schmikbob
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Posted: 06 January 2011 at 6:41pm

Actually it is my business since I started this thread and you have tried to commandeer it for your usual rants. Please stick to the topic which is the morality or immorality of drone weapon systems relative to other systems. On that subject, no I'm not saying drones weapons can or can't be recalled. I was responding to a comment about the difference between manned verses unmanned weapon systems. Recall of the weapon or, control of the weapon after release, is one possible difference. As for the Huffington Post, I put that in to avoid the off topic links you seem to like from there.

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Gibbs

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Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:55am

Well if I can add my two cents (if I haven't already) if by morality you mean accountability I believe the military (whatever military you refer) has some accountability whether the target acquired was a success or not. Now the question begs whether or not the target was a "true" target in the sense that the target has some direct responsibility in harming others. Now the rabbit hole goes deeper whether once that target is hit, the victims surrounding the target are killed are also attached in the moral responsibility of the gov't....My best guess is yes. The right or wrong on the issue is up for debate.

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Sign*Reader

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Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:17pm

Originally posted by schmikbob

Actually it is my business since I started this thread and you have tried to commandeer it for your usual rants.

As an agnostic on Islamic board this thread on ethics sounds oxymoron as it gets! Make it your business to define what ethical system do you follow...Without a basis this is an exercise in futility!

Please stick to the topic which is the morality or immorality of drone weapon systems relative to other systems.

So tell me how do you set your moral compass?

On that subject, no I'm not saying drones weapons can or can't be recalled.was responding to a comment about the difference between manned verses unmanned weapon systems. Recall of the weapon or, control of the weapon after release, is one possible difference.

The talk of recalling weapons once launched from a drone is meaningless, no they can't be recalled! What are trying to impress us here with?
That is why according to data collected by reporters on the drone killings, the kill rate of the so called suspects is 1.6% of the total civilians killed on the ground in last couple years ...Go figure the total dead innocents!

As for the Huffington Post, I put that in to avoid the off topic links you seem to like from there.

How about from wikileak's publications or other investigative reports!
Would you be happy if I quoted Fox News?

Btw what are your own sources of information that are factual?

Edited by Sign*Reader - 10 January 2011 at 7:48pm

Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.

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schmikbob
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Posted: 10 January 2011 at 7:49am

signreader, why do you always end up resorting to this. This is a thread about the perceived morality or immorality of a certain high profile weapon system being employed. Please don't turn it into a personal attack.

If you do not understand what an agnostic is there are a wide selection of sources to find out. If you feel that I have no business, as an agnostic, even posting on this forum perhaps you should take that up with the moderators.

In a discussion of morality concerning drones it might be usefull, and I hope I am not the only one that sees the relevence here, of discussing the potential differences between this system and others that are employed. One of these differences is that other systems can be recalled or even controlled and destructed after launch. Just because you can't follow the logic doesn't mean others can't.

As far as this topic is concerned, I don't need to go off topic and link to some unrelated Huffington Post fourth hand account of atrocities committed by your favorite boogeyman. I happen to have personal experience relevent to this discussion.

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Hayfa
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Posted: 10 January 2011 at 10:37am

I an not sure about the morality per say. But when you kill someone, the further you are, the further you can distance oneself from that question. The fact that you are taking a human being's life, you really should think about that. And not take it lightly. When they are faceless it is alot easier to do. Killing people should not be a computer game.

When you kill someone, it is justifiable in self-defense. If you speak of Islamically I would think there would be big questions because you have to justify and know it was a threat and thus self-defense.

i remember watching a piece on the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The soldiers killed unarmed civilians, just wiped them all out. We know that happened.

And in the case of Pakistan, I am not sure who the enemy really is. I don't think the government knows either...

Edited by Hayfa - 10 January 2011 at 10:45am

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

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schmikbob
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Posted: 10 January 2011 at 3:52pm

Hayfa, excellent points. You said it is easier to kill faceless targets. I would agree. However, do you think the recent ruckus about the use of drones is about this weapon system making the targets more faceless than another system (like a manned aircraft) or is it about whether or not it is a good thing to reduce the risk to the person firing the weapon thus making it easier to kill without consequence? I believe this is a good debate to have because it is very clear in the US military world that unmanned systems are here to stay and they will take a bigger and bigger share of defense dollars.

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IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Science & Technology

Topic: Ethics of unmanned or drone weapon systems
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Author	Message
Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 06 January 2011 at 5:36pm
	It was none of your cotton picken business when I am addressing others, let abuayisha and Divya to respond to my rejoinder... Are you saying the missiles fired by the drones can be recalled? I will address the ethic part...
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged

Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 06 January 2011 at 5:55pm
	*Originally posted by Gibbs* But however this same moral equation can be application to those executing a prisoner by firing squad. Of course you can have the "other" put blanks in your gun but your intent is to take a human life. Now, with respect to military the equation if more complex because if your target is one person, you must be absolutely sure he (or she) is responsible for which death is justified. Good point.
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged

schmikbob Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 422	Posted: 06 January 2011 at 6:41pm
	Actually it is my business since I started this thread and you have tried to commandeer it for your usual rants. Please stick to the topic which is the morality or immorality of drone weapon systems relative to other systems. On that subject, no I'm not saying drones weapons can or can't be recalled. I was responding to a comment about the difference between manned verses unmanned weapon systems. Recall of the weapon or, control of the weapon after release, is one possible difference. As for the Huffington Post, I put that in to avoid the off topic links you seem to like from there.
	IP Logged

Gibbs Guest Group Joined: 29 April 2009 Online Status: Offline Posts: 939	Posted: 07 January 2011 at 10:55am
	Well if I can add my two cents (if I haven't already) if by morality you mean accountability I believe the military (whatever military you refer) has some accountability whether the target acquired was a success or not. Now the question begs whether or not the target was a "true" target in the sense that the target has some direct responsibility in harming others. Now the rabbit hole goes deeper whether once that target is hit, the victims surrounding the target are killed are also attached in the moral responsibility of the gov't....My best guess is yes. The right or wrong on the issue is up for debate.
	IP Logged

Sign*Reader Senior Member Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352	Posted: 09 January 2011 at 11:17pm
	*Originally posted by schmikbob* Actually it is my business since I started this thread and you have tried to commandeer it for your usual rants. As an agnostic on Islamic board this thread on ethics sounds oxymoron as it gets! Make it your business to define what ethical system do you follow...Without a basis this is an exercise in futility! Please stick to the topic which is the morality or immorality of drone weapon systems relative to other systems. So tell me how do you set your moral compass? On that subject, no I'm not saying drones weapons can or can't be recalled.was responding to a comment about the difference between manned verses unmanned weapon systems. Recall of the weapon or, control of the weapon after release, is one possible difference. The talk of recalling weapons once launched from a drone is meaningless, no they can't be recalled! What are trying to impress us here with? That is why according to data collected by reporters on the drone killings, the kill rate of the so called suspects is 1.6% of the total civilians killed on the ground in last couple years ...Go figure the total dead innocents! As for the Huffington Post, I put that in to avoid the off topic links you seem to like from there. How about from wikileak's publications or other investigative reports! Would you be happy if I quoted Fox News? Btw what are your own sources of information that are factual? Edited by Sign*Reader - 10 January 2011 at 7:48pm
	Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
	IP Logged

schmikbob Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 422	Posted: 10 January 2011 at 7:49am
	signreader, why do you always end up resorting to this. This is a thread about the perceived morality or immorality of a certain high profile weapon system being employed. Please don't turn it into a personal attack. If you do not understand what an agnostic is there are a wide selection of sources to find out. If you feel that I have no business, as an agnostic, even posting on this forum perhaps you should take that up with the moderators. In a discussion of morality concerning drones it might be usefull, and I hope I am not the only one that sees the relevence here, of discussing the potential differences between this system and others that are employed. One of these differences is that other systems can be recalled or even controlled and destructed after launch. Just because you can't follow the logic doesn't mean others can't. As far as this topic is concerned, I don't need to go off topic and link to some unrelated Huffington Post fourth hand account of atrocities committed by your favorite boogeyman. I happen to have personal experience relevent to this discussion.
	IP Logged

Hayfa Female Islam Senior Member Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370	Posted: 10 January 2011 at 10:37am
	I an not sure about the morality per say. But when you kill someone, the further you are, the further you can distance oneself from that question. The fact that you are taking a human being's life, you really should think about that. And not take it lightly. When they are faceless it is alot easier to do. Killing people should not be a computer game. When you kill someone, it is justifiable in self-defense. If you speak of Islamically I would think there would be big questions because you have to justify and know it was a threat and thus self-defense. i remember watching a piece on the My Lai massacre in Vietnam. The soldiers killed unarmed civilians, just wiped them all out. We know that happened. And in the case of Pakistan, I am not sure who the enemy really is. I don't think the government knows either... Edited by Hayfa - 10 January 2011 at 10:45am
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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schmikbob Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 422	Posted: 10 January 2011 at 3:52pm
	Hayfa, excellent points. You said it is easier to kill faceless targets. I would agree. However, do you think the recent ruckus about the use of drones is about this weapon system making the targets more faceless than another system (like a manned aircraft) or is it about whether or not it is a good thing to reduce the risk to the person firing the weapon thus making it easier to kill without consequence? I believe this is a good debate to have because it is very clear in the US military world that unmanned systems are here to stay and they will take a bigger and bigger share of defense dollars.
	IP Logged