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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Every living thing made from water. Post Reply Post New Topic
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2010 at 9:38am
I mentioned this in the other thread: The search for Qur'anic references to and prophecies of modern scientific discoveries has become a "popular trend" in some Muslim societies. 
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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rememberallah
 
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 31 December 2010 at 10:12am
first of all peace be on you schmikbob.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I didn't comment on ether because I don't see how it is relevant.  What is it you want me to say?  Ether was a hypothesis that some scientists proposed to explain how light waves could propagate in a vacuum.  It was never more than a hypothesis, with no experimental evidence to support it, and it was eventually proven to be false.  What does that have to do with all living things being made of water?

hello ron what are you talking, just go back three or four posts you will understand the context, anyways the context was that it was a reply to your idea that Quran was given scientific facts which other civilizations believed,....anyways once again, there were a lot of fallacies along with some facts in previous civilizations, one of them was ether, Quran would only take the facts and not the fallacy which was believed from aristotle to 19th century........point is Quran was not copied from any previous scientific research.

what are you saying presenting ether so lightly, you say some scientist......the whole scientific community believed in it and was shocked to find ether doesnt even exist, it was not just any other hypothesis, it was believed to be fact.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

No, the point is he is not a scientist, nor does he use the word "roof" or anything similar.

can only a scientist make a scientific comment???.....think what you have said, what he has said is correct, he might not have used the word roof, but things are explained like this, eg. mt. everest is called the roof of the world, is it,..........it is in context of it being the highest point on earth. so also sky as roof of earth is in context of its protective role......you know na sky plays a protective role or not???? research if you don't.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I didn't say "mountains don't vanish" because that would not relate to cosmology, which is the category of errors I was discussing.  I mentioned the stars falling because meteors were commonly thought to be "falling stars", and the Quran clearly repeats that error.  We now know that stars are thousands or millions of times bigger than the earth, which makes it absurd to speak of them falling onto the earth (if anything it would be the other way around), even supposing they weren't thousands of light-years away to begin with.

the fall of stars in the verse is in context of their power, influence, light and not fall like "johny keeps falling from stairs"....the fall is like "fall of roman empire".....thats why the translation makes it clear "when the stars fall loosing their light".....this is said as to make those people who believed stars to be gods, that even stars will end. eg. see 77:8 it will become clear to you as same vision is repeated in other words.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

An airstrip can be flat.  The Bonneville Salt Flats are (approximately) flat, although it is described as "an area so flat that from certain perspectives the curvature of the earth can actually be seen." (http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/the_land/bonnevillesaltflats.html) But the earth itself is not flat.  (I can't believe I even have to explain this!)

brother you don't need to explain this, i well know all this......it is to you that i am explaining that earth for itself is ostrich egg shaped but for the context of us humans it is flat. i explain to you the concept of context/relativity, draw a straight line using a scale and pen/pencil.......to you it will be staright, zoom into it a hundred times and see if it straight at all. it will be anything but straight.  this is context. ie earth is flat for us and yet ostrich egg shaped for itself.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Just because the earth is flat, doesn't mean that the dome of the sky cannot be curved:



where does Quran give such a description....where??? show me.
moreover you are saying this is what Quran means......the same way i can say Quran means earth is round and not what you have shown.
you are the last person who should say this.....you were saying that Quran had copied facts from earlier civilizations.....earlier civilizations eg.greek also believed earth is round....such an intelligent man who wrote the Quran, who was doing research of science of his time while writing Quran would never miss it....would he.......no, my brother, it is you who are missing it.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

All that is required is for the sun's orbit to be higher than the moon's.

but then sun catches up with the moon and solar eclipse happens.......you can not have any other model but one in which earth is not at centre. ie sun having a different race track {orbit}, and the moon having a different race track {orbit}.

in earth at centre model sun and moon are in same race track but different lanes, like earth, mars, venus etc. are in same race track but different lanes.

i repeat for the last time if you still have not got it.....the sun can not catch the moon as sun is not going around the earth but moon is.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Clay is aluminum silicate, Al2(SiO3)3.  You won't find that compound anywhere in the human body.  Yes, you will find traces of silicon, but that's not the same thing at all.  Hopefully you will not find aluminum because it has no physiological function and can be toxic.



you have commented on everything but left the main thing........you said "If science had found that the human body was made of aluminum silicate, you would have been trumpeting the Quran's reference to "clay" as a proof of Quranic science."..........i have once before answered this, but this time i answer you in yet another way,..................no, if that had been the case people like you would had pointed out that Quran's reference to clay is not clay as referred today in science ie Al2(SiO3)3, but by "clay" Quran just means simple "mud" as pointed out in 15:26, 15:28, 15:33.....you would had said so, you would had been correct in this...... but now, i say what you would had said. thus your whole aluminium silicate thing falls flat.
brother you are biting into something of which you have no clue at all.
come to your nature so that you may be shown the truth.....nobody can be shown the truth, one has to earn it......nobody can show the truth but God. do charity in return of which you get nothing....or strive in "God's cause" so that you may be guided. {see topic "God's cause" in Quran and sunnah section}
peace be on you
may God guide you.


Edited by rememberallah - 31 December 2010 at 10:20am
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Quote chris1999 Replybullet Posted: 01 January 2011 at 12:57pm
"Webb and Gibbs, give it up. This guy is not going to be deterred from his pseudoscientific preaching. You could be making perfect sense and he'll still invent new "research". A better course might be to point out the logical fallacies in his arguments. "

I'm surprised they held out this long! :)

Edited by chris1999 - 01 January 2011 at 12:58pm
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2011 at 5:48am
peace be on all
point out which point of mine, which research of mine is wrong, point out, the case is that you have your idea/belief proved wrong and you are not able to digest that. where is my research wrong? where?
you shouldnt just abuse me like that and that would be fair......even if you do i will yet not hate you but still desire good for you, for thats the sunnat of the  prophet, he still loved those who abused him and caused him hurt.
may peace be on all.
aameen.
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2011 at 11:52am
Originally posted by rememberallah

peace be on all
point out which point of mine, which research of mine is wrong, point out, the case is that you have your idea/belief proved wrong and you are not able to digest that. where is my research wrong? where?
you shouldnt just abuse me like that and that would be fair......even if you do i will yet not hate you but still desire good for you, for thats the sunnat of the  prophet, he still loved those who abused him and caused him hurt.
may peace be on all.
aameen.


Well said brother.  It seems some people would rather interject in these discussions with pointless chatter, not adding anything constructive or relevant.  Perhaps they are a bit insecure of themselves?  Just asking. LOL
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Gibbs Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2011 at 11:38am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by rememberallah

peace be on all
point out which point of mine, which research of mine is wrong, point out, the case is that you have your idea/belief proved wrong and you are not able to digest that. where is my research wrong? where?
you shouldnt just abuse me like that and that would be fair......even if you do i will yet not hate you but still desire good for you, for thats the sunnat of the  prophet, he still loved those who abused him and caused him hurt.
may peace be on all.
aameen.


Well said brother.  It seems some people would rather interject in these discussions with pointless chatter, not adding anything constructive or relevant.  Perhaps they are a bit insecure of themselves?  Just asking. LOL
 
Honestly, the critique is quite interesting. If The Koran is directly God's words then the information should be 100% accurate. Remember God is the author and creator of this solar system so I'm sure the information provided in the Koran is accurate and if there is criticsm that follows then Muslims should be able to explain the information. Now, if the author of this thread is unable to explain, I believe its best for discussion purposes to admit that the person has no knowledge of that kind of religious information.
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2011 at 1:19pm

Originally posted by rememberallah

what are you saying presenting ether so lightly, you say some scientist......the whole scientific community believed in it and was shocked to find ether doesnt even exist, it was not just any other hypothesis, it was believed to be fact.

Let me explain to you how science works.  An observation is made, for instance the wave-like properties of light.  Then a hypothesis is formed to explain the observation, e.g. there might exist an invisible substance called "ether" to allow light to propagate as a wave through a vacuum.  Then experiments are done, e.g. the Michelson–Morley experiment, to try to prove or disprove the hypothesis.

Whether or not a great many scientists "believed" the hypothesis to be correct is irrelevant.  Science is not about belief, it is about evidence.  The concept of ether remained a hypothesis, and only a hypothesis, until it was experimentally tested; and when the experiment disproved it, the hypothesis was rejected.  It was never regarded as a "fact".

None of which has anything to do with this discussion anyway.

can only a scientist make a scientific comment???

Well, if you're claiming that "science describes atmosphere as a protective roof", then yeah, I think you sort of need to actually quote a scientist to substantiate that claim.  Otherwise, it's rather like me quoting a Christian as evidence for what Muslims believe.  And it would also help if the quote actually used the word "roof", don't you think?  I'm frankly not interested in your interpretation of his interpretation of science's interpretation of the atmosphere.

ie earth is flat for us and yet ostrich egg shaped for itself.

Speak for yourself.  Perhaps the earth is flat for Muslims, but not for me.  I can't normally see the curvature, but that's only because I can't normally see the earth as a whole.

Can Allah see the earth as a whole?

where does Quran give such a description....where??? show me.

I didn't say the Quran gave that description.  You asked how the earth could be flat if the sky is described as a dome, and I showed you.

but then sun catches up with the moon and solar eclipse happens.

Not unless the three bodies are lined up exactly, which is a relatively rare event.  Usually the sun passes to one side or the other.  (Come on, don't waste my time -- even you know better than this.)

you have commented on everything but left the main thing........you said "If science had found that the human body was made of aluminum silicate, you would have been trumpeting the Quran's reference to "clay" as a proof of Quranic science."..........i have once before answered this, but this time i answer you in yet another way,..................no, if that had been the case people like you would had pointed out that Quran's reference to clay is not clay as referred today in science ie Al2(SiO3)3, but by "clay" Quran just means simple "mud" as pointed out in 15:26, 15:28, 15:33.....you would had said so, you would had been correct in this...... but now, i say what you would had said. thus your whole aluminium silicate thing falls flat.

Right, so we both agree that the reference to clay is metaphorical, not literal.  And yes, as a scientific claim it falls flat, which is my point.

So the roof is metaphorical -- it's not really a roof, but it has (a few) qualities similar to a roof.
And falling stars are metaphorical -- they don't really fall, but if they lose their influence, that's sort of like falling, right?
And the clay and the dust are metaphorical -- not actual clay and dust but just similar properties (like elemental earth).

BUT the reference to water -- ahh, now that is literal! LOL  Not elemental water, i.e. anything having liquid properties, but actual, chemical H2O!

Don't you see?  You're just going through the Quran, finding occasional passages that were undoubtedly originally intended as metaphorical but that just happen to have turned out to be literally true in some sense, and claiming that they are amazing "scientific" discoveries.

Muhammad had no more idea of H2O than he had of Al2(SiO3)3.  He wasn't referring literally to the chemical compound we call "water" any more than he was referring to literal clay or dust.  As islamispeace said, "The Quran is not a science book."  Trying to interpret it that way is futile, and totally misses the point of the book.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2011 at 2:59pm
Originally posted by Gibbs

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by rememberallah

peace be on all
point out which point of mine, which research of mine is wrong, point out, the case is that you have your idea/belief proved wrong and you are not able to digest that. where is my research wrong? where?
you shouldnt just abuse me like that and that would be fair......even if you do i will yet not hate you but still desire good for you, for thats the sunnat of the  prophet, he still loved those who abused him and caused him hurt.
may peace be on all.
aameen.


Well said brother.  It seems some people would rather interject in these discussions with pointless chatter, not adding anything constructive or relevant.  Perhaps they are a bit insecure of themselves?  Just asking. LOL
 
Honestly, the critique is quite interesting. If The Koran is directly God's words then the information should be 100% accurate. Remember God is the author and creator of this solar system so I'm sure the information provided in the Koran is accurate and if there is criticsm that follows then Muslims should be able to explain the information. Now, if the author of this thread is unable to explain, I believe its best for discussion purposes to admit that the person has no knowledge of that kind of religious information.


Gibbs, I was not referring to the discussion between rememberallah and Ron.  I was referring to these other nitwits who don't offer any thing constructive to the issue but instead accuse people of being "pseudoscientific" or some other nonsense.  All I am saying is instead of making these meaningless remarks, why not join in on the discussion and offer a more intelligent response, as Ron is doing?  I don't agree with everything Ron or rememberallah have said, but that does not mean that I would only chime in to make a wiseguy remark. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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