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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:33am
Originally posted by bunter


If we think of the Old Testament concerning these prophets then we are talking about writings that are possibly 1,500 years older than the Quran, these are the first records. So you have to explain why you see these records as wrong - its because you BRING an Islamic notion of prophets (do you know where the notion comes from?) to the text and just assume the text is wrong not because of what it says but because of a preconceived notion. You must also explain why these stories are there if they are untrue, who in their right mind would sully their Religeon by adding stories of sin if they are not true.


As'alaamu Alaikkum

You still do not understand.

The Torah was revealed to Prophet Musa (pbuh) at least two thousand years before the birth of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and the Injil was revealed to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) about six hundred years before the birth of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). So what?

Let me write the following in caps.

THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED BY THE HAND OF MEN.
THEREFORE GOD ALMIGHTY SENT THE FINAL TESTAMENT TO MANKIND THROUGH HIS FINAL MESSENGER WHO IS THE SEAL OF ALL PROPHETS MEANING THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WILL NOT SEND ANY FURTHER MESSENGERS TO WARN MANKIND.

AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY COUNTLESS TIMES THE MESSAGES CONTAINED IN ALL THE REVELATIONS ARE THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLLY GIVEN, BUT BECAUSE THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED THEY ARE NO LONGER THE WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

Only the Holy Qur'an is the unaltered, uncorrupted and original revelation that is in existance today.
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bunter
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 6:11am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Torah was revealed to Prophet Musa (pbuh) at least two thousand years before the birth of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and the Injil was revealed to Prophet Jesus (pbuh) about six hundred years before the birth of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). So what?Let me write the following in caps.

THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED BY THE HAND OF MEN. THEREFORE GOD ALMIGHTY SENT THE FINAL TESTAMENT TO MANKIND THROUGH HIS FINAL MESSENGER WHO IS THE SEAL OF ALL PROPHETS MEANING THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WILL NOT SEND ANY FURTHER MESSENGERS TO WARN MANKIND.

AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY COUNTLESS TIMES THE MESSAGES CONTAINED IN ALL THE REVELATIONS ARE THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLLY GIVEN, BUT BECAUSE THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED THEY ARE NO LONGER THE WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY.Only the Holy Qur'an is the unaltered, uncorrupted and original revelation that is in existance today.

Let me do it in caps - WHERE IS YOU EVIDENCE PLUS YOU APPEAR TO BELIVE IN BOOKS (the original Torah and Injil) WHICH YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN - how logical is that.

Secondly, there are NO early Quran manuscripts, they were all burned it is said by Uthman. You are simply repeating what others have told you blindly

Edited by bunter - 09 October 2012 at 6:12am
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Caringheart

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Matthew 7:14</span>and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths. There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths. God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him.  Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's...  who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path.

Interesting interpretation though I have never seen it as saying there will be few in heaven - if your interpretation is correct it's profoundly sad and surely God must feel that sadness also unless he is quite happy for people to go to hell. To me the verse is saying that the way of holiness is hard to find and indeed we all know this because we all tend towards forgetting God. One must ask here does this mean unless one is super holy you cannot get into heaven - I don't think so as the Bible simply says believe in the saving power of Jesus.
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by bunter


 Where in the Bible does it say that most will end up in hell - I cannot recall any such verse?
<span>"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Matthew 7:14</span>and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths.  There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths.  God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him.  Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's...  who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path.


Caringheart,
there is not two gods but one God, and the path that leads to Him is One and always has been one since Adam. It is men who from that straight path makes branches, ways that are crocked and calls them new ways to God.
God made for mankind one belief, belief of service and worship to Him with the way of Submission. Any other way leads us into error and away from our service to God.

Again, there is no such thing as our god and their god. There is only One God.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren



Let me write the following in caps.

THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED BY THE HAND OF MEN.
THEREFORE GOD ALMIGHTY SENT THE FINAL TESTAMENT TO MANKIND THROUGH HIS FINAL MESSENGER WHO IS THE SEAL OF ALL PROPHETS MEANING THAT GOD ALMIGHTY WILL NOT SEND ANY FURTHER MESSENGERS TO WARN MANKIND.

AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY COUNTLESS TIMES THE MESSAGES CONTAINED IN ALL THE REVELATIONS ARE THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLLY GIVEN, BUT BECAUSE THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED THEY ARE NO LONGER THE WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

Only the Holy Qur'an is the unaltered, uncorrupted and original revelation that is in existance today.


Greetings Abu-Loren,

Saying it over and over doesn't make it so.  :-(

Islam rejects the new covenant - Jesus, and tries to renew the old covenant... old testament.

Salaam,
Caringheart
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:14pm
Originally posted by honeto



Caringheart,
there is not two gods but one God, and the path that leads to Him is One and always has been one since Adam. It is men who from that straight path makes branches, ways that are crocked and calls them new ways to God.
God made for mankind one belief, belief of service and worship to Him with the way of Submission. Any other way leads us into error and away from our service to God.

Again, there is no such thing as our god and their god. There is only One God.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

How do you know?
I'm not saying I disagree, but how do you know that there is only one god?

There is one God that called Abraham to follow Him and who made the Israelites His people.  If others choose not to believe in Him and choose to go their own way who is to say they should not?  It is God who calls people to Him, and if they are not called they are free to go to whatever destination does call them.  Those of us who do follow and belong to God should share the good news of Him in the hopes of leading other people to Him, but what more can we do?  They must be called by God Himself.

22 And ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. (Jeremiah 30)

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jeremiah 31)

37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:

38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:

39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:
40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
41 Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul.
42 For thus saith the Lord; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.  (Jeremiah 32)
_____________

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?
21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.
23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.

24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.  (John, the beloved Apostle, 10)
________________


37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60 Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

61 When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.  (John, the beloved Apostle, 6)
___________________

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.  (John, the beloved Apostle, 8)
_____________________

15 The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,

16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.  (Ezekiel 37)

Salaam,
Caringheart


We can not insist of a certainty that there is one God, just because we believe in one God.  We know of, and believe in, the one God who called to Abraham and His children, and those who choose to believe in Him through Jesus. 
Who is to say of a certainty that others do not go to other gods when they die... as well as to satan, who is sort of a god in his own right... god, i.e, ruler, of this world for now... later to be condemned to the netherworld.


Edited by Caringheart - 09 October 2012 at 3:48pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2012 at 8:47pm
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by Caringheart

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Matthew 7:14</span>and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths. There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths. God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him.  Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's...  who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path.

Interesting interpretation though I have never seen it as saying there will be few in heaven - if your interpretation is correct it's profoundly sad and surely God must feel that sadness also unless he is quite happy for people to go to hell. To me the verse is saying that the way of holiness is hard to find and indeed we all know this because we all tend towards forgetting God. One must ask here does this mean unless one is super holy you cannot get into heaven - I don't think so as the Bible simply says believe in the saving power of Jesus.
 
Jesus is the way.  Smile
and yes, I imagine God experiences profound sadness. Cry
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2012 at 10:46am
Originally posted by bunter


Let me do it in caps - WHERE IS YOU EVIDENCE PLUS YOU APPEAR TO BELIVE IN BOOKS (the original Torah and Injil) WHICH YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN - how logical is that.

Secondly, there are NO early Quran manuscripts, they were all burned it is said by Uthman. You are simply repeating what others have told you blindly


Where did I say that I believed in the Torah and the Injil?

ALL I EVER SAID WAS THAT THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPT SO WHAT YOU CALL THE BIBLE TODAY IS NOT THE SAME TORAH AND INJIL THAT WAS REVEALED.

You really have a problem understanding English and very basic at that.

Secondly, the Holy Qur'an is an oral tradition that was given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). What happened when they decided to write it down in book form was that they brought together everyone who has ever memorised the Holy Qur'an and them complied it from those sources. It was meticulously checked with many people getting involved in the process and verifying the final book form.
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