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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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bunter
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2012 at 4:54am
For me the question is not did Mohammed see an angel but instead it is did anyone else see the angel. The point is that revelations if they occur at all are private affairs so that means whatever is reported that a prophet saw or heard is hearsay - it cannot be anything else because the prophet is the sole witness.
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bunter
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 24 August 2012 at 5:15am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

All Christians please watch this [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA&feature=relmfu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA&feature=relmfu
This is the usual misinformed stuff that you can find everywhere recycled on Islamic web sites. But just a few points.

1. He starts by reminding us that Allah leads people astray so if Christians are led astray it's not their fault, it's Allah's so if this is correct Allah seems to be both unjust and vindictive.

2. If we look in the Quran and Hadith for the teaching of Jesus then we would be very hard pressed to be able to construct more than a few sentences.

3. Is it not odd how Green says the core is crucifixion and Eucharist but either does not know about or forgets or deliberately omits to tell us the centrality of the reserrection in his introduction.

4. He mentions Christian scholars but almost never by name and only very rarely does he give any references.

I will write a fuller review later but when I see this kind of cherry picking from the Bible and shoddy logic - surely, Muslims are not taken in by this kind of presentation?

Edited by bunter - 24 August 2012 at 5:18am
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2012 at 3:29am
Originally posted by bunter

For me the question is not did Mohammed see an angel but instead it is did anyone else see the angel. The point is that revelations if they occur at all are private affairs so that means whatever is reported that a prophet saw or heard is hearsay - it cannot be anything else because the prophet is the sole witness.


As'alaamu Alaikkum bunter

This is also true of all the prophets of God, there were no eye witnesses when they revealed their revelations from God so do you disbelieve them?

By the way, there were occasion when the companions of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) were present when he received his revelations. They describe how the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) went into a sort of trance and he would sweat a lot and it would appear that he was in some form of difficulty. When this happens the companions usually cover him with a blanket so that he has a 'private' moment with the Archangel Gabriel (AS).
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2012 at 4:16am
Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by Abu Loren

All Christians please watch this [URL=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA&feature=relmfu]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_Kbgdf-TLA&feature=relmfu
This is the usual misinformed stuff that you can find everywhere recycled on Islamic web sites. But just a few points.

1. He starts by reminding us that Allah leads people astray so if Christians are led astray it's not their fault, it's Allah's so if this is correct Allah seems to be both unjust and vindictive.

2. If we look in the Quran and Hadith for the teaching of Jesus then we would be very hard pressed to be able to construct more than a few sentences.

3. Is it not odd how Green says the core is crucifixion and Eucharist but either does not know about or forgets or deliberately omits to tell us the centrality of the reserrection in his introduction.

4. He mentions Christian scholars but almost never by name and only very rarely does he give any references.

I will write a fuller review later but when I see this kind of cherry picking from the Bible and shoddy logic - surely, Muslims are not taken in by this kind of presentation?


As'alaamu Alaikkum

1. You seem to not know Christianity that well to comment. First of all, there is pre-destination which all three Abrahamaic faiths believe in, this is fundamental in believing in a God. All human beings are pre-destined to do certain things, however we are also given free will from His Mercy which encompasses all things. Therefore if you put this logic into practice then what happens is that somebody who is a disbeliever in God are not given any guidance, that person is so far from God that it would be very difficult for him to even understand God. Then humanity is sent messengers and prophets to guide them, again we have a choice of either believing in these messengers and prophets of God or not believing in them and we are given clear verses to indicate where we will end up depending on the choices that we make.

You seem to be highlighting Allah as something other than God or your God.

2. We do not need an in depth story or the teachings of Jesus (pbuh)it is all recorded in the Gospels albeit tainted and mirepresented in parts. What the Holy Qur'an does do in fact is gives us a very clear picture of who Jesus (pbuh) was and is. It confirms that Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously and without a father and that he is indeed the Messiah and that he will come again to destroy the Anti-Chirst, Ad Dajjal.

3. It is not odd when the crucifixion and the eucharist is only core in Christinanity. He does know a lot about it (more than you probably) as he was educated in a monastic boarding school where he spent a lot of years learning with monks.

4. I don't he is deliberately omitting mentioning the scholars and references because I know that he does mention these at other lectures.

Finally, this is not cherry picking nor shoddy logic. As I am also from a Roman Catholic background I too was lost in the Trinitarian logic from an early age. The mix of pagan worship confirms the suspicion I had about Christianity way before we actually started talking about it. I was also not very impressed with the whole man-god scenario in Christianity.

To me Islam and the Holy Qur'an and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) fills in the gaps. The answers that are so missing in the Bible is in the Holy Qur'an and I ask every Christian to read the English translation of the Holy Qur'an for a life changing experience.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2012 at 8:58pm
Originally posted by bunter


 
I had the same reaction.  The guy is a false teacher and doesn't know what he's talking about.  I was able to shoot down nearly everything that he presented.  I posted my comments on the video(@youtube) but they were never posted.  Big surprise.


Edited by Caringheart - 03 September 2012 at 4:55pm
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2012 at 1:44pm

Originally posted by Beebok


Here follows an event from another time in Muhammad’s life to illustrate his veracity from which we can add to other events to form a foundation for determining Muhammad’s reliability.

The event of the battle in Badr valley:

Beebok, the history of warfare is filled with examples of battles won against vastly superior forces.  If that is your standard for miracles, then you must see miracles everywhere.

Actually, your description bears a curious resemblance to Hannibal's attack on Cannae:

"So, at Cannae, Hannibal led an army of something in the region of 30,000 men, perhaps, against something in the region of 100,000 Romans, or ten legions and their support. There are many stories told about Cannae and it is even thought that Hannibal arranged matters so that the wind blew dust into the faces of the advancing Romans, to give himself every single advantage possible."
http://phoenicia.org/hannibal.html

I was curious about this motif of the wind blowing dust into the faces of one's enemies, so I did a bit of surfing and found that it was a frequent military tactic in ancient warfare. (http://www.historynet.com/military-technology-using-a-cloud-of-dust-in-ancient-warfare.htm) I have to wonder if this actually happened at Basr, or if it was simply added to the story as a routine embellishment to show Allah's support.  (I also have to wonder why Allah would support an unprovoked attack on a commercial caravan in the first place, but that's another topic.)



Edited by Ron Webb - 26 August 2012 at 1:49pm
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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rememberallah
 
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 02 September 2012 at 9:27am
cannibals men were soldiers....he had elephants.....over here one side was a proper army with horses camels and proper weapons whereas on the other were old people, freed slaves and only some young men etc. There was no comparison.....to compare it in modern times it would had been similar had iraqi army defeated NATO forces.....and if they would had then indeed it would had been a miracle.

as for you saying that "a commercial caravan was attacked".....you are saying things which osama bin laden would had liked you to say and extremist scholars of islam say.....i would prophet send 2-3 men to attack a well guarded caravan? they were sent to see if meccans were preparing for attack as it was rumored that they were purchasing camels and weapons....moreover it was a lie said by Abu Sufyan to meccans that the caravan was under attack whereas it was not.

Quran in full of miracles......which you are not willing to see intentionally.
"it is Allah who created every living thing out of water".......Indeed O God you have.
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 03 September 2012 at 3:41pm
Here is a much better argument, that I have found, to go with the topic of this thread.  I found it in answer to this question asked on another forum,
 "i was wondering how did adam and eve's children have children if they were the only ones?",
Enjoy reading.  I know I did.  Smile

Adam is generally taken to be the first man, but nowhere in the Quran is it said that Adam was the first man or that there was no creation before him. The Quran only speaks of Adam as being the first human given the ability of vicegerency on Earth.

When the Quran speaks of the creation of the human race, it speaks of a gradual process originating with an extract/sulala of earthly elements 15:26,23:12,37:11,55:14 and water 21:30,24:45,25:54 fashionned and formed 40:64,64:3 before man was made complete and assigned his role of vicegerency 20:55,22:5,7:11"And certainly We created you, then We fashioned you, then We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam". This verse does not negate the possibility that the whole human race went through a process of evolution from basic earthly elements, that then became capable of reproduction through procreation and that at one point, one individual (Adam) was fully, physically evolved and was consequently made complete with a spirit from God becoming the first vicegerent:
40:67-8,35:11,32:7-9"and He began the creation of man from dust.
Then He made his progeny of an extract, of water held in light estimation.
Then He made him complete and breathed into him of His spirit, and made for you the ears and the eyes and the hearts; little is it that you give thanks".

In 71:17 the Quran parallels the growth of man out of the earth like a plant does.

As said in 38:71-2, Allah announces to the angels that He will create a mortal, and that when this mortal becomes complete with the spirit from God, to prostrate before him. The last step of human evolution is thus linked in the Quran not only to its physical completion but also to mankind having being filled with a spirit to become God's vicegerent 2:30. It is to be noted that just as the first man was created out of earth, then passing through various stages of creation, the clay model adopted the shape of a living man of flesh and blood, and then his progeny spread by means of the sperm-drop, so was the first jinn created from a pure flame of fire, or a fire free of smoke, and then the species of jinn spread from his progeny 55:14-15,15:26-27. Though even now our body is entirely a compound of the earthly substances, these substances have taken the from of flesh and blood and after being made a living body it has become quite a different thing from a mere lump of clay. The same also is true of the jinn. Their being also is essentially fiery. But just as we are not a mere lump of earth, so also they are not a mere flame of fire.

Just as Adam was created through the word "BE", the Quran speaks of the entire universe having originated with the creative word "be" 2:117 meaning without resistance and in total submission 41:11, but this does not preclude process, just as Jesus, Yahya or Adam's creations with "be" do not exclude a gradual process 3:47,59.

The primary opposition to the theory of evolution, from both Muslim and Christian dogmatists, is that they hold that it challenges the dignity of man. The proponents of this idea fail to recognize that both their scriptures hold that man was created from dust, and other earthly insignifant lifeless materials whose combination by the Best and Wise Creator resulted in a wonderful being endowed with consciousness, and the Quran in multiple places argues how man was created from sticky fluid, i.e. semen, 76:1"a thing not worth mentioning" 19:67,18:32-7,36:77,16:4"He created man from a small seed and lo! he is an open contender" .
When Satan argued against God regarding man, he stated that he was better because man was created from mud, and he, from fire 7:12.

Man is ultimately defined by his will and desire. It is not the origin of a thing that matters per the Quran, but the final reach of a thing. As John the Baptist said in the NT, when rebuking the Rabbis and Pharisees, God can create children of Abraham out of stone.

Heart

[Note:  I have yet to look up the Quran'ic references, but I plan to, as I of course would recommend that all do.  :-)]


Edited by Caringheart - 03 September 2012 at 3:47pm
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