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Interfaith Dialogue
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Beebok
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 07 August 2012 at 6:12pm

 Responses to CaringHeart.

“God in plurality.”

Semitic languages like Arabic have a plural of respect, or a plural of majesty in their grammars.

It is too bad that modern English doesn’t have this. Though it sounds like you might be happy if the Quran mentioned a plurality. Perhaps the idea of a plurality of God excites you.

“and who might this apply to... those who ridicule, mock, and attack the Torah and the Gospel?”

Who mock’s the original Torah and Injeel? Not us Muslims.

God teaches in the Quran that they were revelations of God before humans tampered with them. 


“Who began the argument?”

On this thread, the disbelievers began to argue after a Muslim pointed out a scientific accuracy in the Quran. 

Those who reject the Quran begin an argument in their own minds to look for excuses to disbelieve. Then the devil aids them further.


“It certainly could contain some of the word of God from the Judeo-Christian teaching...”

With the Quran, we can go back to see what the essence of the original teachings were before the Jews and Christians corrupted the scriptures.

Their own scriptures admit to corruption (book of Jeremiah).

“These are statements straight from the Bible about those who would not believe, and would not follow, God and His ways. “

The original Torah and Injeel have the same author as the Quran, God.

Some traces of the Author’s original statements may still echo in them; or they may have copied the Quran later. God knows best which way it occurred.

Now, the Bible is filled with errors and deceptions while the Quran is the only revelation of God on earth to hold to its original form.

By the way, Muhammad was illiterate and could not read or write anything, including the Jewish and Christian literature.

 

They came long before Muhammad and the Islamic idea of what made a disbeliever.

The original Torah and Injeel were Islamic ideas. All the prophets such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus were Muslims (submitted to God), regardless of their ethnicity or tribe.

While in a common sense, the word Muslim refers to people, in a broader sense it refers to anyone or anything that obeys God.

Islam existed long before Muhammad. It is submission to God. Even before humans, the angels were in submission to God, and were Muslims.

Even the planets that rotate do so at God’s will, and are Muslims.

 

“and just exactly who are the 'wrongdoers'?

Those who disbelieve in the Quran and Muhammad are tyrants to their own souls.

{ Had the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) accepted the Faith, it would surely have been better for them. Some are true believers, but mose of them are evil-doers. } (3,111)

 

“These are all just statements from the Bible... just phrased somewhat differently.”

These are all statements from God.

The Bible still has some vague echoes of the original that God revealed to His Muslim prophets like Moses and Jesus.

 

“The devil is a great deceiver... he needs only an element of truth to mislead.”

I agree. Look at the trinity. It is true that God is one; and then false that God is three. How better for Satan to divert monotheist followers of Jesus than to tell them that the one is three. Satan could not hope to tell monotheists that there are multiple Gods, but to tell them that they are still worshipping one while they mention three is the bit of truth in the wider deception.

 

“Remember the garden of Eden.”

That is an apt analogy for how the Christians bit into the apple of the trinity and so became among the lost.

 

“The devils tactic is to plant a seed of doubt and mistrust.”

That sounds like your tactic.

Who used Paul as a serpent? Giving him just enough of the truth to be tolerated by the real apostles?

 

“I see yours.  Can you see mine?”

I’ve known the view you represent for much of my life; I grew up in the so called Bible Belt. I’ve been dealing with Christian missionaries and reading Orientalists for a long time.

From your statements, though, it looks like your still a bit hazy on my view.

Otherwise, it would not have been necessary for you to ask, "and who were these "'steadfast apostles?'" For they were none other than the messengers of Allah such as Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus, peace be upon them all.

 And since you assert that the Quran copies the Bible, see if this is in your Bible,

{

The Jews say Ezra is the son of God (they did so in a debate at Medina) and the Christians say that the Messiah is the son of God. Such are the words they utter with their mouths, by which they emulate the infidels of old.

} (9,30)

Indeed, be very careful which religion you follow. There is more at stake than just your life.

 

 

 



Edited by Beebok - 07 August 2012 at 8:32pm
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Abu Loren
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 2:25am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Beebok

< id="clsid:38481807-CA0E-42D2-BF39-B33AF135CC4D" id=ieooui> <> st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) }  


I agree that mocking is inappropriate and no way to have an intelligent discussion in love.

I will offer the following though as a comparative study(another view);
{ Bear up then with patience, as did the steadfast apostles before you, and do not seek to hurry on their doom. }
and who were these "steadfast apostles"?

God will sustain the believers against the ridicule and mockery of the disbelievers.

{ . . . We will Ourself sustain you against those that mock you . . . .
God in plurality.

"The disbelievers only have ridicule and mockery and deception, for they learn their arguments from devils."
and who might this apply to... those who ridicule, mock, and attack the Torah and the Gospel?
{ The devils will teach their followers to argue with you. . . . } (6,121)
Who began the argument?
{ This Quran could not have been devised by any but God. } (10,38)
Hmmm, I wonder... an element of truth... just enough to deceive?  It certainly could contain some of the word of God from the Judeo-Christian teaching...
Who else could have devised the Qur'an?
{ It is God who has sealed their hearts on account of their unbelief. } (4,156)

{ We have cast veils over their hearts and made them hard of hearing lest they understand your words. They will believe in none of Our proofs, even if they see them, one and all. } (6,25)
These are statements straight from the Bible about those who would not believe, and would not follow, God and His ways.   They came long before Muhammad and the Islamic idea of what made a disbeliever.
{ . . . a scourge awaits the wrongdoers, though most of them do not know it. Therefore wait for the judgment of your Lord} (52,48)
and just exactly who are the 'wrongdoers'?... Yes, you are correct, God will be the judge.
He who follows wrongly will pay a high price.  So be careful who you follow.
{ Deaf and dumb are those that deny Our revelations: they blunder about in darkness. . . . . } (6,39)
These are all just statements from the Bible... just phrased somewhat differently.

{ If they say, "He has invented it himself," say to them, "Bring me one chapter like it. Call on whom you may besides God to help you, if what you say be true." } (10:38)
The devil is a great deceiver... he needs only an element of truth to mislead.  Remember the garden of Eden.  The devils tactic is to plant a seed of doubt and mistrust.  Who planted the seed of doubt and mistrust about God's Word revealed before Muhammad?  Who used Muhammad (as a serpent) to accomplish his own ends?  giving him just enough of the truth to be accepted.  Be sure you are not misled.

Judge carefully.

Just another view of the matter.
I see yours.  Can you see mine?
Heart

 
As'alaamu Alaikkum Caringheart,
 
We muslims here on this forum have been very patient with you so far and tried to counteract your points in concern but you have this pre-conception of Islam and it looks like you will never change your mind regarding. it.
 
To say that Islam is from satan is the last straw, now you are venturing into dangerous territory, I have told you you before to use words carefully.
 
It is true when you say that there are no eye witnesses to the meeting between prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and Archangel Jibril (AS) inside the caves of Hira, however all belief in God is through faith and not by proofs. Apart from what all the prophets of God (peace and blessings of God be upon them) tells us, there is no concret proof in all of the three Abrahamaic faiths about God. Either you believe the prophets in faith or you don't. What you say about prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is also true of all of the other prophets of God.
 
I suspect you are a Christian missionary trying to lead people away from the truth with your poison. Please refrain and debate sensibly.
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:10pm
Dear Brother Abu Loren, please let the disbelievers say whatever they wish.
This helps me in my debate against them.

When they they say silly things like, "talking about scientific explanations in Islam is an insult to religion and mythology," then that makes no sense and it is like gripping jello.

Disbelievers' arguments that are like pale smoke and wispy fog are aggravating.

I know it sounds counterintuitive, but my arguments are aided when they make the brazen but solid and clear statements.

I can make a home run against a fast ball; but a slow thrown ball bores me into dullness.

Please detach your emotions from their words, and allow them to set themselves up to get their rhetoric knocked out of the park.

Please let them say what they want.


Edited by Beebok - 08 August 2012 at 7:37pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:18pm
@Abu Loren

I believe I do debate sensibly.
"Just another view of the matter.
I see yours.  Can you see mine?"
and no, I am no missionary, just your common everyday person who loves God.

Beebok knows how to have a dialogue.  He does not have to agree with me.  I do not have to agree with him, but I do see why he sees things the way he does, since he is able to elaborate.  I ask others if they can do the same... see things the way others see them.
Heart

I am actually hurt by your words Abu.


Edited by Caringheart - 08 August 2012 at 7:50pm
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:27pm
Dear Brother Abu Loren,

You say, "however all belief in God is through faith and not by proofs."

I suggest considering that knowledge of God does come by the proofs; however, only God can guide a sincere person to comprehend the proofs. For the corrupt at heart, God has placed a confusion in their minds which blocks them from understanding and appreciating the proofs.

To say that belief comes merely from faith and not by "concrete proofs" plays into the hands of Matt Browne who asserts that there is no point in stating that one religion is right or wrong since there is no proof.

Abu Loren, don't you think that Allah is compassionate enough to give us the proofs?
With sincerity and pure intentions we ponder on the proofs (signs) and then God, in His compassion turns the light on in our minds, and the thoughts we pondered sprout forth knowledge.

Please go back and reread what I had previously written a few times if you do not believe me. I can bring other verses of the Quran to support this epistimology of transcendent knowledge.

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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:34pm
Dear Brother Abu Loren,

Note how Matt Browne stated,
"The search for Qur'anic references to and prophecies of modern scientific discoveries has become a popular trend in some Muslim societies. Thousands of zealous people are wasting their time with this kind of pseudoscientific nonsense."

If he a disbeliever is asserting that we are wasting our time, then that shows he is in a panic because he fears that we are on to something important.

If he really thought that there was nothing to the Quran's descriptions of natural phenomenon just recently discovered, then he would not care and he would go elsewhere; but he comes here to dissuade us.
Why?
Subconsciously he is hoping that if he can get us to doubt the Quran's hitherto's unknown descriptions of nature, then he can repress his knowledge of truth even further down into his subconcious.
There, he will be able to ignore the contrast between what he feels is the truth and what he hates to admit to.

So, when the disbelievers tell us that this is a waste of time, then that shows that we are winning.



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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:35pm
CaringHeart,
"and no, I am no missionary, just your common everyday person who loves God."

Don't worry. I never thought that you were a professional missionary.
My meaning is that I'm familiar with the view of Islam that you and they have in common.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 7:45pm
@Beebok

The Qur'an is incomplete because it says it relies on a scripture which it does not even have if it rejects the Torah and the Injil as they are.  How can anyone follow an incomplete teaching?
"By the way, Muhammad was illiterate and could not read or write anything, including the Jewish and Christian literature."
No, but I have shared this before... Muhammad traveled extensively from a young impressionable age and in those days the Psalms were widely chanted in public places.  Children are quick to learn songs.
"but most of them are evil-doers. } (3,111)"
as long as you notice that it says most of them... not all.  I am certain there are evil-doers among the Muslims as well.

I see your other points, but do you see mine?  That they may apply in both directions?  You have just as much chance of being wrong as I do.

I however, can find no fault in Jesus and His teaching and life, whereas, I can find fault in Muhammad and his teaching and life.  I am not saying that he did not accomplish good things, but when he left, he left much confusion by his words, or those attributed to him, in his wake, among his people.  Is God the author of confusion?  Who is the author of confusion?
"see if this is in your Bible,"
Who came and changed the word of God?  Who came preaching a different Gospel than the one that was taught?

1 Corinthians 14:33  For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace

This is the Word of the Lord as it has always stood since before Muhammad.

Isn't Islam always proclaiming that it was the Qur'an that brought simplicity?  Here are the words from before Muhammad.

2 Corinthians 11:3  But I fear, lest by any means, ... your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Who came preaching another Jesus?
Heart


Edited by Caringheart - 08 August 2012 at 8:28pm
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