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Interfaith Dialogue
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nospam001
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Quote nospam001 Replybullet Posted: 17 October 2012 at 8:02pm
Originally posted by bunter

Don't like that bit do you?
Shush.. There might be agnostics watching.  By resorting to personal insults you're missing an opportunity to impress us with calm rationality.
 
Although it's probably not anyone's intention, both sides in this debate are succeeding quite well at trashing theism - of any sort.
God has the right to remain silent. For His advocates, however, each resigned shrug is a missed opportunity to win new converts.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 18 October 2012 at 2:59am
Originally posted by bunter


Therefore your contention that Jesus did not die on the cross has no foundation in history and to deny it is wilful disbelief. Your ONLY reason to not believe it appears to be Islamic writings that appeared 600 years after the Gospel events. it is also true that the Islamic writers must have been aware of the historical truths recorded in the Gospels or else they had other sources but what they were or are I have no idea.


Bunter, I don't need anything else than the Holy Qur'an which is the Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. You keep beating the same old Christian drum and you can do that if you want to. My God tells me that people like you are like cattle, deaf, dumb and blind.

If the Trinity makes sense to you and you believe in it then that is up to you and it's between you and God. For me, I can't believe in it because I know that after weighing up all the facts presented that it was a lie concocted by the enemies of Jesus (pbuh).

The Holy Qur'an makes more sense to me when it says that Jesus (pbuh) was the Messiah, a mighty prophet and messenger. He was an ordinary human being born miraculously through the virgin birth.

Luke 1:15For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

John the baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother's womb, so this means that John the Baptist is part of the Trinity too. Wait a minute, now it becomes four? What do you call that? Quadrinity?

Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospelto the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

If Jesus (pbubh) was part of the Trinity why would the Spirit anoint him and not Jesus himself being part of the Trinity?
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 19 October 2012 at 3:58am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Bunter, I don't need anything else than the Holy Qur'an which is the Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. You keep beating the same old Christian drum and you can do that if you want to. My God tells me that people like you are like cattle, deaf, dumb and blind.

I assume you mean that all you need to live a good and holy life is the Quran? It's obvious that not everything we need to know is in the Quran or Bible or indeed, any scripture. If we want to build a bridge, make penicillin, construct an aircraft and a million and one other things then we won't find those details in scripture. 

For myself, I find the Bible lays out the whole council of God focused in Jesus. What I find disturbing in your post is the arrogance implicit in your faith, according to you because others find deep faith elsewhere they are like cattle, deaf, dumb and blind. I wonder was Dante talking about Muslims like you when he said "Some have justice in their hearts, thinking before they let their judgements leave the bow, but your people keep it handy on their lips."

I wonder how you feel when you say others are cattle, deaf dumb and blind? Be honest do you feel good about that, feel superior, feel good about Islam, pleased with yourself or are you filled with sorrow? Do you know Proverbs 24:17 "Rejoice not when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles or is overthrown"

As Christians, we are taught humility as well as deep concern for others and avoid self-justification. 1 Corinthians 10:12 "Don’t be so naive and self-confident. You’re not exempt. You could fall flat on your face as easily as anyone else. Forget about self-confidence; it’s useless. Cultivate God-confidence."

You can only find the facts (about the trinity) as you call them in the Bible - if by 'make sense' you mean do I understand the Trinity then the answer is no I don't but like you, most things about God I do not understand. Let me ask you. It is said Mohammed had his heart removed and washed with snow, well I can be just like you and say "For me, I can't believe in it because I know that after weighing up all the facts presented that it was a lie concocted by Muslims" - do you see the point and do you understand what Tommy Dewar meant when he coined the aphorism "Minds are like parachutes, they only function when they're open."?

Christians believe the Holy Spirit is in EVERY believer so what you say about John the Baptist is nonsense. 
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2012 at 11:43am

The Quran predicts the deceptive mentality of the disbelievers and why they reject truth.

 

Disbelievers’ Demand Ever More Rigorous Proofs Because They Just Don’t Want to Believe.

 Bunter’s insincerity is typical of the insincerity we see frequently in those who refuse to accept the obvious truth that Islam is the true religion of God. Bunter makes for a good case study to understand and see examples of what the Quran predicts in their mentality and behavior because of the extremely large number of deceptive arguments he makes that, while time consuming to expose, are obvious in their insincerity and deception.

Previously, I showed how he kept changing the criteria for belief. First he had demanded that the hadith show that others saw the angels also. Then when it was shown that Muslims and non-Muslims had also seen the angels, he then changed his criteria and stated that something had to be in the Bible for him to believe it. Then later when we showed him things in his own Bible, he pretended that those things weren’t there.

So, when the disbelievers like Bunter complain that there isn’t proof for something, it isn’t because there isn’t really proof for it (and doesn’t even really know what proof is since I’ve shown repeatedly that he doesn’t understand logic or the scientific method), rather they only make that complaint because they are just looking for excuses to not believe.

The rhetoric and verbiage from the disbelievers demanding proof is empty and insincere. They have already been shown sufficient evidence, and they denied it.

We have exposed their insincerity in these many pages by pointing out their contradictions and fallacies.

 

The Quran even says that the believers will, believe in none of God’s signs, even if they see the signs, one and all. (6,26).

The Quran goes on to explain that even if the disbelievers were given an outlandish miracle such as being lifted up to the heavens, the disbelievers who just look for excuses to not believe would say something like they must have just hallucinated:

{

If We open for the unbelievers a gate in heaven and they ascended through it higher and higher, still they would say, “our eyes were only dazzled; surely we must have been bewitched.

} (Quran,  15:17

So, no matter what proofs you show them, they will eternally ask for more rigorous proofs because they are not sincerely looking for the truth. Rather, they are just looking for excuses to disbelieve. This is similar to how the Pharoah was shown the miracles of Moses, but just claimed that Moses’ staff was just some technology rather than believe that it was from God.

Now, in addition to changing criteria, let’s also look at the multiple levels of deception.

 

Multiple Layers of Deception from disbelievers:

 The Quran discusses the multiple levels of darkness in disbelief.

Honeto had quoted from their Bible:

{

Acts 7:41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars.

}

 Now, let’s look at the multiple levels of deception in Bunter’s response:

1. Changing the subject

2. Falsely claiming that Honeto can’t think for himself.

3. Denying that the verse proves Honeto’s point. By claiming that we reject the Bible when in fact, he has rejected it even more by denying verses such as the one above.

4. Illogically claiming that because the verse refers to those who have rejected God, and since Honeto has rejected the Bible, therefore the verse refers to Honeto.

5. Ignoring the fact that the verse refers to those like himself since just as the people in the verse had committed the sin of worshipping an idol (in the form of a calf), Bunter has also committed the sin of worshipping an idol (in the form of the prophet Jesus).

6. Implies that he can read Honeto’s mind.

7. Contradicts whether or not Honeto can think for himself.

Here was Bunter’s response: { Do you know what these verses refer too? Your problem is you think you and only you are right so automatically everyone else is wrong. You simply cannot think for yourself and neither can you see that the event that these verses recount is about those who rejected God and went their own way - since you reject the Bible, they refer to you not me. }

1. Changing the subject:

Honeto presented the verse to point out that the Bible also shows how God caused disbelievers to go even further astray (from the worship of just a calf to also stellar objects). Discussing to whom the verse changed the subject.

2. Falsely claiming that Honeto can’t think for himself.

That’s just an ad hominem fallacy and an insult. Also, it contradicts Bunter’s earlier assertion that Honeto thinks that only he is right. Obviously Honeto can think for himself. (although Bunter’s tortured logic in #4 casts serious doubts on Bunter’s thinking).

3. Denying that the verse proves Honeto’s point.

The verse proved Honeto’s point (and mine). But Bunter denied that the verse said what it said (even though everyone can clearly see it). As such, Bunter also ended up rejecting his own Bible, and then claimed that we had rejected it. Actually, since we Muslims have the Quran, we can see what parts of the Bible match it, and thus be able to make a good determination as to what parts of the Bible are probably close to what God originally revealed to Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them).

4. Illogical claim:


a. “ . . . about those who rejected God . . . .”

b. “ . . . - since you reject the Bible, they refer to you . . . .” 

Bunter’s first premise is that the verse refers to those who refer reject God. Then Bunter claims that therefore, it refers to those who reject the Bible.

But, we can forgive deception # 4 since it looks like it was an accident. Bunter has shown that he has trouble understanding logic, so logical fallacies like this were probably not done intentionally.

Ironically, based on Bunter’s own reasoning, since Bunter has rejected the Bible, the verse refers to him also.

 

5. Ignoring that the verse refers to those like him


Even without Bunter’s twisted and contorted reasoning that the verse refers to those who reject the Bible, the verse still refers to him since Bunter has resorted to idol worship (he has imagined Jesus as a god in his mind, and that concept in his imagination is his idol).

Since we Muslims have the Quran, we can see that God probably did reveal something similar to the verse above. Those who rebel and worship idols do get sent further astray. Not only does the verse refer to those like Bunter who worship idols instead of worshipping God, but Bunter’s further diversion from the truth and going even further astray shows the point to be true.

 

6. Implying he can read Honeto’s mind:


When Bunter states, “Your problem is you think . . . ,” Bunter is implying that he can read minds. He is asserting a claim about Honeto’s inner cognitions. Bunter makes the same implication in the next statement, lest someone object that Bunter had only made a one time mistake there which did not really reflect his actual views.

 

7. Contradicts whether or not Honeto can think for himself.


First Bunter states to Honeto, “Your problem is you think you and only you are right  . . . .”

Next Bunter states to Honeto, “You simply cannot think for yourself . . . .”

Bunter first says to Honeto, “Your problem is you think….”

Then he says to Honeto, “You simply cannot think….”

So, Bunter is first claiming that Honeto has thought for himself that only Honeto is correct. After all, who else is thinking for Honeto, if not himself?

Then, Bunter says, “You simply cannot think for yourself . . . .”

That’s a clear contradiction.

 Those are only some of the layers of darkness (deception) in Bunter’s response, and that’s only one of his responses.

The Quran predicts multiple levels of darkness in the behavior of the disbelievers:

{

As for the unbelievers, their works are like . . . .

. . .

Or like the darkness on a bottomless ocean spread with clashing billows and overcast with clouds: darkness upon darkness. If he stretches out his hand he can scarcely see it. Indeed the man from whom God withholds His light shall find no light at all.


} Quran, chapter 24 (chapter of Light), verses 39-40.

The Quran says that after the disbelievers arrogantly chose to disbelieve, and then God casts veils over their hearts and make them unreceptive to reason, you will see how they will deceive themselves over and over again. (6:24 to 6:26)

Amazingly, even though the Quran predicts their deceptiveness, and even though their deceptions get caught, they continue on by adding new deceptions on top of the old ones. Even though they know that they are proving the Quran to be true, they can’t help it. That is the power of the predictions of the Quran: Even though the disbelievers can see that their behavior is proving the Quran to be true, they can’t help but to do it.

The Quran predicts the deception to expect from the disbelievers:

{

The Devils will teach their followers to argue with you.

} Quran (chapter of cattle), 6:121.

It is just as the Quran fortells.



Edited by Beebok - 21 October 2012 at 12:19pm
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 21 October 2012 at 1:55pm

How we Muslims can know that we have preserved the wording of the original Quran

 

My previous promise to talk about this topic:

 Previously, I had written about how a Bible scholar had discovered that the original tests of the New Testament are so fragmented and different that there is no way to reproduce the original. That scholar had written that there were “ not many evangelicals among the (secular) highly educated scholars ….” of the Bible, and so his view is probably in the majority of the top Bible scholars (unlike top Quran scholars). I had mentioned that I would, God willing, demonstrate how we Muslims can reconstruct the original Quran since we have preserved its original wording:

{

Ehrman’s explanation begins on the previous page where he writes:

“It is one thing to say that the originals were inspired, but the reality is that we don’t have the originals – so saying they were inspired doesn’t help me much, unless I can reconstruct the originals.

 I had to stop and emphasize, “…unless I can reconstruct the originals,” because while we Muslims don’t have the originals either, we are able to reconstruct them, as I will show in a future post, God willing.

}

 And then I had gone on to write:

{

Ehrman’s next line, however, shows that Muslims don’t have anything to worry about. Ehrman continues to write about the New Testament:

“In some places, as we will see, we simply can not be sure that we have reconstructed the original test accurately.”

 That is the second place, then, that Ehrman implies that the problem can be solved if the original can be reconstructed, which is not a problem for us Muslims.

 And Ehrman writes on:

“It’s a bit hard to know what the words of the Bible mean if we don’t even know what the words are!

    “This became a problem for my view of inspiration, for I came to realize that it would have been no more difficult for God to preserve the words of scripture than it would have been for him to inspire them in the first place.

}

 I’ve emphasized the words “reconstruct” and “preserve” because we Muslims have the ability to reconstruct the Quran since we have preserved the original wording of the Quran.

 So, as I promised, I will write about how we Muslims can know that we have preserved the wording of the original Quran.

 

 Memorization

 The Quran is of such a high quality of poetic eloquence, that it is not rare for 10 or 11 children to memorize it, even among non-native Arab speaking children. These are not specially gifted children, but usually just regular kids.

 For example, this following link discusses an HBO documentary about Muslim children in a Muslim memorization contest.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/27/koran-by-heart_n_911454.html

It is about 3 of the 100 children who memorized “… every word of the Quran -- even though they do not speak or understand Arabic,….”

 They memorized every word of the Quran.

There are about 77,500 words in the Quran, depending on what gets counted as a word.

There are only about 32,250 words in Hamlet, considered to be one of the most poetically eloquent pieces of literature in the English language.

 So, the Quran is over twice as long as Shakespeare’s Hamlet, but there are non-Arab speaking children who can memorize every word of it.

At only less than half the length of the Quran., how many native-English speaking adults can memorize all of Hamlet?

Even those native-English speaking adults who are seasoned actors and have practiced memorization since high-school and who only have to memorize the lines of one of the main characters in the play have a difficult time.

So, Hamlet, one of the most poetically eloquent pieces of literature in the English language, still gives difficulty in the memorization of the lines of just one of the main characters to educated adults who are practiced in memorization for the theater.

Think how much more difficult it would be for those seasoned actors to memorize the whole play.

Think how much more difficult it would be for a native English speaking adult who was not practiced in theatrical memorization.

Think how much more difficult than that it would be for a non-native English speaker.

Think then how much more difficult it would be for a total non-English speaking adult.

Think then how much more difficult than that it would be for a non-English speaking child!

 But the Quran, which is at more than twice the length, is not uncommonly memorized by non-Arab speaking children, and more frequently memorized by Arab speaking children.

Here is a link to a video showing a three year old child reciting the Quran:

 Three year old child memorized Quran,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-UbSnjvUGA

When we Muslims say that the Quran is extremely eloquent, the disbelievers think that we’re just kidding around. I remember one mocked our statement by saying that if the Quran can be said to be from God because of its eloquence, then so can the Iliad. So little did he understand.

When we Muslims talk about the poetic quality of the Quran, we’re not talking about normal, human, poetic quality like the Iliad or Hamlet.

We’re talking about a poetic quality of such a high nature that humans are incapable of it. As just one evidence, can non-English speaking children frequently memorize Hamlet? Think about the vast difference between what Hamlet is to English and the Quran is to Arabic. English just doesn’t have something of such a high poetically eloquent quality to compare it to, so we Muslims can only give examples to try to get them to understand such as the relative ease with which even children can memorize it.

Quran, 7:204

{

This book is evidences from your lord.

}

 

Of course, the disbelievers will dismiss such evidence with some glib, contrived, excuses.

Quran, 6:39

{

Those that deny Our evidences are deaf and dumb in the darkness.

}

 

Quran, 7:186

{

None can guide those whom God confounds. He leaves them blundering about in their sinful ways.

}

 

Quran, 7:179 – 180

{

They have hearts they cannot comprehend with; they have eyes they cannot see with; and they have ears they cannot hear with. They are like beasts – indeed, they are more astray. Such are the heedless.

}

 

But even if they can not understand that no mortals and jinn combined could create something like the Quran, then let them at least think this:

Because of the extreme ease with which the Quran can be memorized, it was easy to preserve its original wording, especially when many were together to help each other remember. So, if among say ten Muslims, if one made a mistake as they practiced reciting, the other nine could set him straight.

In addition, it was written down as the blessed prophet Muhammad recited it.

After Muhammad died, the earliest Muslim government created an official written Quran and burned all the earlier ones so that no one could complain that some disorganized, unofficial groups had put it together and there could then be no doubt that the Quran had been written correctly.

 

Because of such things, we Muslims can reconstruct the original since we have preserved the exact wording.

 

For the Christians however, their earliest manuscripts are mostly written in a language that Jesus did not teach in, so right there it is impossible to recreate the original. Those manuscripts are also from fragments that were written long after Jesus by people who had probably never met Jesus, and those fragments differ widely. Then, competing factions altered the teachings to match their ideology, and the later Christian church of Rome in the fourth century pick and chose which manuscripts it liked.

 

The Bible was canonized 325 AD in the council of Nicea.

The Quran was collected by those who lived and knew Muhammad.

 

The Bible was probably written by people who had not known Jesus.

The Quran was written and memorized by people who knew Muhammad.

 

The Bible’s earliest writings are in a language that Jesus did not teach in.

The Quran was written and preserved in the same language that Muhammad spoke.

 

The differences go on an on, but it is noteworthy to remember what Ehrman wrote about this:

“It’s a bit hard to know what the words of the Bible mean if we don’t even know what the words are!

    “This became a problem for my view of inspiration, for I came to realize that it would have been no more difficult for God to preserve the words of scripture than it would have been for him to inspire them in the first place. If he wanted his people to have his words, surely he would have given them to them (and possibly even given them the words in a language they could understand, rather than Greek and Hebrew).”

 

I had promised to write, if God willed, how we Muslims can know that we can reconstruct the original Quran.

This is something that Ehrman said would have been a miracle for the Bible:

“The fact that we don’t have the words surely must show, I reasoned, that he [God] did not preserve them for us. And if he didn’t perform that miracle, there seemed to be no reason to think that he performed the earlier miracle of inspiring those words.”

 

So, in addition to the miracle of the Quran’s super-human eloquence, its perfect predictions of scientific discoveries, future events, the behavior of the disbelievers, etc, and many other miracles, we also have the miracle of its perfect preservation, which even according to the disbelievers is a miracle for an ancient manuscript to have been so preserved.

 

Those who have rejected the Quran will be blinded to its miracles; but those who are sincere of heart and searching for the truth with self-honesty will be able to see the miracles and know that it is the actual words of God Almighty Himself..

 

Even our hadith our better preserved than the Bible where we not only kept track of the people who transmitted it, but also their lives are studied and their reputations scrutinized such that if one was known to have given questionable testimony, the status of the hadith is downgraded as a result.

But that is a discussion for another time, God willing.

 

Next, I need to briefly talk about a related topic: How one can judge the quality of literature or any other thing?

 

 Judging the Quality of a thing:

 Humans do have the ability to differentiate between a Stradivarius violin and a cheap one. The majority of film scholars can agree that Citizen Kane is the best American movie ever made, and lists of the top 100 English novels show a great deal of overlap.

To say that we can not know that one thing is better than another because no scientific standard exists is to deceptively use the wrong standard to the thing being judged.

The standard for judging quality is based on the knowledge of the experts, and the experts of Arabic are in agreement as to the superior standing of the Quran.

The Arabs of Muhammad’s time were the top generation of poets in Arabic history, and they could not even come close to it.

Those who read it with honesty will know that human hands are incapable of it.

 

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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 22 October 2012 at 9:15am
Beebok - Deviant Readings?
Can you now tell us about Deviant readings for the Quran?

I suppose you know about the 7 readings but there are outside the seven Ten or the Fourteen readlngs.

Footnote. Scholars tell us there are ONLY three tiny section of the Greek NT text that are still in doubt.



Edited by bunter - 22 October 2012 at 9:27am
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 2:20pm
Muslims established not only memorization of the word, but proper readings such as where to pause to inhale. If someone memorized the Quran without this proper education, it would not be accepted by the scholarly community as a correct reading, even though the words were perfect.
The fact that we have even deviant readings of the same words shows even more thoroughly how carefully and perfectly we preserved the Quran.

Actually, a real example of what a real scholar says include:
"And these copies all differ from one another, in many thousands of places."
and
"...these copies differ from one another in so many places that we don't even know how many difference there are."
and
"there are more differences  among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament."
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 11 November 2012 at 2:29pm

Muslim point out that the Quran states that God created life from water, and that this is knowledge that was unknown at the time of Muhammad, 1400 years ago.

The disbelievers in Islam criticize this assertion of the Muslims by trying to say that it was indeed obvious that life was mostly made of water at the time of Muhammad.

As part of debunking the claim of the disbelievers, I will point out several arguments, as I have done in the past. Even in modern times when the knowledge of life arising from water is known, it is still not obvious to scientists and not always fresh on their minds even when it is known as a fact.

This particular argument came to my mind as I was watching a science documentary on cable television’s Science channel.

That television show was part of a series called “The Planets” that came out in the year 2004. The episode I was watching was about life on other planets and was titled, “Life.”

It can be found here:

http://www.cornel1801.com/bbc/PLANETS/7-Life.html#

About between 15 to 20 minutes into it, the documentary stated that the tests that NASA had used in the Viking explorers to find life on Mars had failed, and it later occurred to the NASA scientists that to look for life, one should look for water.

This is an amazing confirmation of the Quran’s significance in mentioning water as the source of life.

Even though it was known to scientists in the 1970’s that living things were composed mostly of water, that knowledge hadn’t sunk in deep enough (no pun intended) to look for water on Mars when trying to find signs of life. That realization only came after the Mars’ Viking missions.

The 1976 Mars explorers, according to the science documentary, looked for gasses like the ones that bacteria would give off on earth, and for signs of microbes in the soil.

The show said that after the failure of the Mars’ Viking explorations to find proof of life, scientists started to look for life on earth in more extreme environments to help them understand how to look for it in Mars or other planets.

The show stated that a NASA scientist named Chris McCay, started to look for life in California’s Death Valley, and found blue-green algae about a millimeter under the soil where it was deep enough under the surface to get moisture from the earth, but close enough to the surface to get sunlight for photosynthesis.

I tried my best to write down exactly what the science documentary said.

The NASA scientist, Chris McCay stated:

What we found, looking at life on earth in very harsh environments, dry, cold, hot, environments, is that wherever there is water, wherever there is some mechanism for trapping water, life can flourish.

And that's the key.

If an alien civilization called and asked us what kind of life do you have on your planet, my answer would be, water based life, what kind to you have?”

The narrator of the science documentary then stated, “If water was the key to life, the search for life in the solar system suddenly became a search for water.

Allow me to repeat this for emphasis. After the 1976 Viking probes to Mars, NASA scientists discovered, in their own words, “. . . wherever there is water . . .  life can flourish.

Discovering that water was the “key to life” came after the Mars’ Viking mission.

Although some of the importance of water to life was known before the 1976 mission, it hadn’t sunk in enough for NASA scientists to look for water. It only struck them to do so after the Viking missions, according to this show.

I did some further research into this and found this:

“The primary mission of the Viking probes of the mid-1970s was to carry out experiments designed to detect microorganisms in Martian soil . . . .”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_on_Mars

But it was after the 1976 probes that it occurred to them to look for water. So, if it wasn't obvious to those scientists in the early 1970's that life came from water even though they had the scientifically proven knowledge, then it was not at all obvious to people in the time of Muhammad when the knowledge was not known.

So much for the excuses of the disbelievers?



Edited by Beebok - 11 November 2012 at 4:41pm
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