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Abu Loren
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 10:48am

Originally posted by bunter

Originally posted by Caringheart

"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:14</span>and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths. There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths. God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him. Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's... who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path.

Interesting interpretation though I have never seen it as saying there will be few in heaven - if your interpretation is correct it's profoundly sad and surely God must feel that sadness also unless he is quite happy for people to go to hell. To me the verse is saying that the way of holiness is hard to find and indeed we all know this because we all tend towards forgetting God. One must ask here does this mean unless one is super holy you cannot get into heaven - I don't think so as the Bible simply says believe in the saving power of Jesus.

Bunter as I have previously suspected you do not have enough knowledge of the Bible or the Holy Qur'an to debate here. What you say most of the time is just hot air.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 10:53am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Abu-Loren,Saying it over and over doesn't make it so. :-(Islam rejects the new covenant - Jesus, and tries to renew the old covenant... old testament.Salaam,Caringheart

Gretings Caringheart, it's not me saying it over and over so that it becomes true but my God says so in the Holy Qur'an.

Your other point is ludicrous. On the one hand Christians say that Jesus came to fuilfil the Law and on the other you say he done away with it because of his sacrifice. The thing is his sacrifice never happened and it was Paul who changed the Mosaic Law or rather abolished it.

Christians are still so confused today as they always were.

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bunter
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:11pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

One can both fulfil the law and abolish it as a way of getting to God. HOw do you know the Cross never happened? Do you not see if it never happened there would be no evidence but we have a considerable body of evidence. Muslims are still so confused today as they always were.

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bunter
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:14pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Bunter as I have previously suspected you do not have enough knowledge of the Bible or the Holy Qur'an to debate here. What you say most of the time is just hot air.

You are entitled to your opinion but in the last day it is God who will judge both you and me. Do you not know the saying "Judge not lest you be judged"?= - perhaps you can say where it comes from.

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bunter
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Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:26pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Where did I say that I believed in the Torah and the Injil?

ALL I EVER SAID WAS THAT THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPT SO WHAT YOU CALL THE BIBLE TODAY IS NOT THE SAME TORAH AND INJIL THAT WAS REVEALED.

You really have a problem understanding English and very basic at that.

But surely it is required of Muslims to believe in the Torah and Injil since the Quran refers to them. Secondly, you have a logical problem since the only way you can know that the Torah and Injil are corrupt is if you have the original - so what is it?

Just to remind you what you said - and note YOU speak of the SAME message and yet you seem now not quite to believe in the books even though according to you the message is the same

AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY COUNTLESS TIMES THE MESSAGES CONTAINED IN ALL THE REVELATIONS ARE THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLLY GIVEN, BUT BECAUSE THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED THEY ARE NO LONGER THE WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY.

Secondly, the Holy Qur'an is an oral tradition that was given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). What happened when they decided to write it down in book form was that they brought together everyone who has ever memorised the Holy Qur'an and them complied it from those sources. It was meticulously checked with many people getting involved in the process and verifying the final book form.

There are reckoned to be over 20 different traditions of the compilation of the Quran. You appear to be referring to the collection made by Uthman but seem unaware of an earlier collection under Abu Bakr. Do you also know the Uthman burned thousands of copies, many of which were the very same copies your own prophet is supposed to have checked.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:37am

Originally posted by bunter

One can both fulfil the law and abolish it as a way of getting to God. HOw do you know the Cross never happened? Do you not see if it never happened there would be no evidence but we have a considerable body of evidence. Muslims are still so confused today as they always were.

Christians only claim that Jesus (pbuh) fulfilled the Law but this is was in fact a lie to promote the teachings of Paul. It was he who abolished it not Jesus (pbuh). The cross never happened because God Almighty tells us so. What evidence do yo have that Jesus (pbuh) was crucified?

Muslims are in fact clear in what they see because God Almighty Himself lifted the veils off our eyes. Islam has the clearest picture.

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Abu Loren
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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:50am

Originally posted by bunter

But surely it is required of Muslims to believe in the Torah and Injil since the Quran refers to them. Secondly, you have a logical problem since the only way you can know that the Torah and Injil are corrupt is if you have the original - so what is it?

Muslims are not required to believe in the Torah and the Injil as they are both corrupt.

THE HOLY QUR'AN ONLY CONFIRMS THAT THE TORAH AND THE INJIL WERE GIVEN TO PROPHET (MUSA) AND PROPHET JESUS (PBUH).

The only way to know that they are both corrupt is because God Almighty tells us in the Holy Qur'an and by reading the Bible. All Prophets were pious and righteous individuals, but when you read the Bible it says that Prophet Nuh (pbuh) was a drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) had sexual relations with his daughters. So it doesn't take a genius to deduce that these falsehoods were added.

Originally posted by bunter

Just to remind you what you said - and note YOU speak of the SAME message and yet you seem now not quite to believe in the books even though according to you the message is the same

What I mean when I say that the message is the same is that there is only One God and not to associate any partners to Him. To give in charity and pray and perform pilgrimage etc.

Originally posted by bunter

There are reckoned to be over 20 different traditions of the compilation of the Quran. You appear to be referring to the collection made by Uthman but seem unaware of an earlier collection under Abu Bakr. Do you also know the Uthman burned thousands of copies, many of which were the very same copies your own prophet is supposed to have checked.

RECKONED is the correct word here, and whoever reckoned it is an ***** without knowledge.

Of course Abu Bakr would have copies of the Holy Qur'an as he was the first Caliph and soon after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) they tried to write down the complete Qur'an. It wasn't until the Caliphate of Uthman that this task was completed.

Everyone who has memorised the Holy Qur'an was brought in to confirm and double check the final outcome so that there were no discrepancies not error. Very logical process.

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Beebok
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Posted: 14 October 2012 at 9:40am

Abu Loren said to Bunter:
"What you say most of the time is just hot air."

From me to Abu Loren now:
What Bunter posts does qualify as spam and sabotage.

After someone disproves an assertion of his in clear, simple, honest, and direct means, he just repeats his same original assertion that got disproved.

Maybe his aim is to exhaust the other people by repeating the same thing over and over again.

It appears like his tactic is that when he can’t stand against logic and reason, to then just hammer and pound the same assertions over and over again, no matter how many times those are shown to be wrong, in the hopes that dull repetition will overcome detailed reason and thought.

It is a technique of brainwashing to overcome logic through dull repetition, which he appears to be employing.

The only benefit I see of tolerating his presence here is to expose the dishonest tactics of the disbelievers which the Quran so accurately explains.

But since that has been done ad nauseum, his tactics (whether intentionally or inadvertently), do prevent progress and meaningful learning.

Predictably, he may respond by unabashedly accusing us of doing what he is actually doing, but the evidence speaks for itself.

Dear brother Abu Loren, maybe it is time to protect this site by banning one who causes harm to it.

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IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue

Topic: Every living thing made from water.
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Author	Message
Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 11 October 2012 at 10:48am
	*Originally posted by bunter* *Originally posted by Caringheart* "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7:14</span>and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths. There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths. God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him. Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's... who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path. Interesting interpretation though I have never seen it as saying there will be few in heaven - if your interpretation is correct it's profoundly sad and surely God must feel that sadness also unless he is quite happy for people to go to hell. To me the verse is saying that the way of holiness is hard to find and indeed we all know this because we all tend towards forgetting God. One must ask here does this mean unless one is super holy you cannot get into heaven - I don't think so as the Bible simply says believe in the saving power of Jesus. Bunter as I have previously suspected you do not have enough knowledge of the Bible or the Holy Qur'an to debate here. What you say most of the time is just hot air.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 11 October 2012 at 10:53am
	*Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Abu-Loren,Saying it over and over doesn't make it so. :-(Islam rejects the new covenant - Jesus, and tries to renew the old covenant... old testament.Salaam,Caringheart Gretings Caringheart, it's not me saying it over and over so that it becomes true but my God says so in the Holy Qur'an. Your other point is ludicrous. On the one hand Christians say that Jesus came to fuilfil the Law and on the other you say he done away with it because of his sacrifice. The thing is his sacrifice never happened and it was Paul who changed the Mosaic Law or rather abolished it. Christians are still so confused today as they always were.
	IP Logged

bunter Male Senior Member Joined: 28 March 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 123	Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:11pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* *Originally posted by Caringheart* Greetings Abu-Loren,Saying it over and over doesn't make it so. :-(Islam rejects the new covenant - Jesus, and tries to renew the old covenant... old testament.Salaam,Caringheart Gretings Caringheart, it's not me saying it over and over so that it becomes true but my God says so in the Holy Qur'an. Your other point is ludicrous. On the one hand Christians say that Jesus came to fuilfil the Law and on the other you say he done away with it because of his sacrifice. The thing is his sacrifice never happened and it was Paul who changed the Mosaic Law or rather abolished it. Christians are still so confused today as they always were. One can both fulfil the law and abolish it as a way of getting to God. HOw do you know the Cross never happened? Do you not see if it never happened there would be no evidence but we have a considerable body of evidence. Muslims are still so confused today as they always were.
	IP Logged

bunter Male Senior Member Joined: 28 March 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 123	Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:14pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* Bunter as I have previously suspected you do not have enough knowledge of the Bible or the Holy Qur'an to debate here. What you say most of the time is just hot air. You are entitled to your opinion but in the last day it is God who will judge both you and me. Do you not know the saying "Judge not lest you be judged"?= - perhaps you can say where it comes from.
	IP Logged

bunter Male Senior Member Joined: 28 March 2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 123	Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:26pm
	*Originally posted by Abu Loren* Where did I say that I believed in the Torah and the Injil? ALL I EVER SAID WAS THAT THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPT SO WHAT YOU CALL THE BIBLE TODAY IS NOT THE SAME TORAH AND INJIL THAT WAS REVEALED. You really have a problem understanding English and very basic at that. But surely it is required of Muslims to believe in the Torah and Injil since the Quran refers to them. Secondly, you have a logical problem since the only way you can know that the Torah and Injil are corrupt is if you have the original - so what is it? Just to remind you what you said - and note YOU speak of the SAME message and yet you seem now not quite to believe in the books even though according to you the message is the same AS I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO SAY COUNTLESS TIMES THE MESSAGES CONTAINED IN ALL THE REVELATIONS ARE THE SAME MESSAGE WHEN IT WAS ORIGINALLLY GIVEN, BUT BECAUSE THE TORAH AND THE INJIL ARE CORRUPTED THEY ARE NO LONGER THE WORDS OF GOD ALMIGHTY. Secondly, the Holy Qur'an is an oral tradition that was given to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). What happened when they decided to write it down in book form was that they brought together everyone who has ever memorised the Holy Qur'an and them complied it from those sources. It was meticulously checked with many people getting involved in the process and verifying the final book form. There are reckoned to be over 20 different traditions of the compilation of the Quran. You appear to be referring to the collection made by Uthman but seem unaware of an earlier collection under Abu Bakr. Do you also know the Uthman burned thousands of copies, many of which were the very same copies your own prophet is supposed to have checked.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:37am
	*Originally posted by bunter* One can both fulfil the law and abolish it as a way of getting to God. HOw do you know the Cross never happened? Do you not see if it never happened there would be no evidence but we have a considerable body of evidence. Muslims are still so confused today as they always were. Christians only claim that Jesus (pbuh) fulfilled the Law but this is was in fact a lie to promote the teachings of Paul. It was he who abolished it not Jesus (pbuh). The cross never happened because God Almighty tells us so. What evidence do yo have that Jesus (pbuh) was crucified? Muslims are in fact clear in what they see because God Almighty Himself lifted the veils off our eyes. Islam has the clearest picture.
	IP Logged

Abu Loren Male Islam Senior Member Joined: 29 June 2012 Location: United Arab Emirates Online Status: Offline Posts: 568	Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:50am
	*Originally posted by bunter* But surely it is required of Muslims to believe in the Torah and Injil since the Quran refers to them. Secondly, you have a logical problem since the only way you can know that the Torah and Injil are corrupt is if you have the original - so what is it? Muslims are not required to believe in the Torah and the Injil as they are both corrupt. THE HOLY QUR'AN ONLY CONFIRMS THAT THE TORAH AND THE INJIL WERE GIVEN TO PROPHET (MUSA) AND PROPHET JESUS (PBUH). The only way to know that they are both corrupt is because God Almighty tells us in the Holy Qur'an and by reading the Bible. All Prophets were pious and righteous individuals, but when you read the Bible it says that Prophet Nuh (pbuh) was a drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) had sexual relations with his daughters. So it doesn't take a genius to deduce that these falsehoods were added. *Originally posted by bunter* Just to remind you what you said - and note YOU speak of the SAME message and yet you seem now not quite to believe in the books even though according to you the message is the same What I mean when I say that the message is the same is that there is only One God and not to associate any partners to Him. To give in charity and pray and perform pilgrimage etc. *Originally posted by bunter* There are reckoned to be over 20 different traditions of the compilation of the Quran. You appear to be referring to the collection made by Uthman but seem unaware of an earlier collection under Abu Bakr. Do you also know the Uthman burned thousands of copies, many of which were the very same copies your own prophet is supposed to have checked. RECKONED is the correct word here, and whoever reckoned it is an ***** without knowledge. Of course Abu Bakr would have copies of the Holy Qur'an as he was the first Caliph and soon after the death of the Prophet (pbuh) they tried to write down the complete Qur'an. It wasn't until the Caliphate of Uthman that this task was completed. Everyone who has memorised the Holy Qur'an was brought in to confirm and double check the final outcome so that there were no discrepancies not error. Very logical process.
	IP Logged

Beebok Male Islam Groupie Joined: 12 May 2012 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 72	Posted: 14 October 2012 at 9:40am
	Abu Loren said to Bunter: "What you say most of the time is just hot air." From me to Abu Loren now: What Bunter posts does qualify as spam and sabotage. After someone disproves an assertion of his in clear, simple, honest, and direct means, he just repeats his same original assertion that got disproved. Maybe his aim is to exhaust the other people by repeating the same thing over and over again. It appears like his tactic is that when he can’t stand against logic and reason, to then just hammer and pound the same assertions over and over again, no matter how many times those are shown to be wrong, in the hopes that dull repetition will overcome detailed reason and thought. It is a technique of brainwashing to overcome logic through dull repetition, which he appears to be employing. The only benefit I see of tolerating his presence here is to expose the dishonest tactics of the disbelievers which the Quran so accurately explains. But since that has been done ad nauseum, his tactics (whether intentionally or inadvertently), do prevent progress and meaningful learning. Predictably, he may respond by unabashedly accusing us of doing what he is actually doing, but the evidence speaks for itself. Dear brother Abu Loren, maybe it is time to protect this site by banning one who causes harm to it.
	IP Logged