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Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 04 October 2012 at 3:11am
Originally posted by bunter


6. Now as a Christian I believe certain things but I am also aware that I cannot in scientific terms prove them to be true – in simple terms I don’t argue the Bible is true because it says so. I can of course cite evidence as exemplified in say the changed lives of believers but you or anyone can challenge that. So I have no issue with Beebok or anyone saying he believes the Quran is true but have every issue with one who demands he is right and others wrong.


Bunter you are absolutely right! Nobody can convince you that the Holy Qur'an is the Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala not should it be anybody's duty. If you don't have faith then that is between you and God and you will have to answer to Him soon enough (soon being that when you die and you are resurrected it is as if you have been dead for only a short while, part of a day). Of course, it is your prerogative to question everything and in my honest opinion nobody should follow blindly what they have been presented with as evidence.

If you are constantly seeking for proof this tells me that you lack faith. It is a hard road which a person takes for his own salvation without even a mustard seed of faith. Faith is like a harvest, when planted it grows over time and ripens and the result is unimaginable. It truly is a re-birth, you will see things differently and you will surely 'open your eyes'.
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2012 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Bunter you are absolutely right! Nobody can convince you that the Holy Qur'an is the Words of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala not should it be anybody's duty. If you don't have faith then that is between you and God and you will have to answer to Him soon enough (soon being that when you die and you are resurrected it is as if you have been dead for only a short while, part of a day). Of course, it is your prerogative to question everything and in my honest opinion nobody should follow blindly what they have been presented with as evidence.

If you are constantly seeking for proof this tells me that you lack faith. It is a hard road which a person takes for his own salvation without even a mustard seed of faith. Faith is like a harvest, when planted it grows over time and ripens and the result is unimaginable. It truly is a re-birth, you will see things differently and you will surely 'open your eyes'.

Well I don't find myself ever looking for proofs and neither do I find Christians in general doing that. I have listened to many thousands of sermons and talks and I cannot recall a single instance where the speaker set out to prove anything. Indeed, for Christians the believe is that unless God through his Holy Sprit and his words recorded in the Bible draw you then nothing else will.

Seeking God does not require faith only honesty. God does not say when you have faith I will do something. But what he is to be found if someone is genuinely seeking - the man or women who says "look God I don't know if you exist or are real but I am going to look for myself" We find this in Jeremiah 29:13 "Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me [as a vital necessity] and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." God never turns anyone away no matter how small their faith, even those who are just hanging on with their finger tips so to speak. God is looking for those who seek him with an open and humble mind and heart. So its not me that opens my eyes but God. For the Christian when we seek God and he finds us it is as if scales fall from our eyes and we see for the first time. Only God can do this, this really is new birth, being born again with sins forgiven and full assurance of faith. Faith is difficult and often life's circumstance cause us to doubt but the Christian cries out to a God who listens - 'help me unbelife'

One might contrast this with Muslims (you may not be one of them) who seem forever to be offering proofs in such things as the supposed Scientific Miracles or what they call the unparalleled nature of the Quran or else trying to undermine the Bible or some other scripture. When I see this I often wonder if there is in fact any faith at all or a faith that needs to be constantly propped up.
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2012 at 8:31pm

How the Quran perfectly predicts the behavior of the disbelievers.

 

Introduction

Bunter offers us with mountains of deception (too many to point them all out).

Then, when we do point them out, he adds new deceptions on top of his older ones faster than can be exposed.

We predict that he will do that, and yet he still does it.

But, it is a good deed for us to do continue exposing Satan’s deceptions; and it further provides evidence for the Quran’s points about the hardness of heart of the disbelivers.

 

Part 1, Summary of the discussion so far

Bunter had complained that his disbelief was not his fault, as such:

Bunter: “… at Q2:26-27 we are told that Allah MAKES many go astray - so if I don't believe its not my fault its Allah's “

Note how Bunter leaves out where the same verses say that God only confounds (misleads) the evil-doers:

{ … By such comparisons God misleads (Yuzillu) many and enlightens many, but He misleads none except the rebellious (Fasiqun). } Quran, 2:26.

Fasiqun, means rebellious, disobedient, evil-doers. It refers to those who have already committed the evil by rebelling and disobeying the command to believe.

Notice how Bunter misrepresents the Quran by complaining about God misleading many, but Bunter leaves out the very next part of the verse where the Quran explains that God misleads those who have already disobeyed and rebelled against Him.

The Quran clearly explains in the verse above that the very same signs of God that should have brought the disbelievers back to truth instead cause the disbelievers to go further astray because of their own evil.

This should have been obvious to Bunter considering that the Quran had, a few verses earlier, elaborated and explained this concept:

{ In their hearts there is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. … } Quran, 2:10

So, Bunter had no excuse to blame God for his disbelief since the Quran had already explained the concept in verse 10 which was later discussed in verse 26.

The Quran later elaborates in many verses how the signs God revealed to increase the good faith in the hearts of people cause the hearts of the disbelievers to get even more hardened. For example:

{ As for those whose hearts are tainted, it will add uncleanness to their uncleanness, so that they shall die while still in unbelief. } (Quran, 9:124)

What is very interesting to notice is how Bunter’s deceptiveness adds evidence that the Quran is right: In excluding from his reference to the Quran how God only further misleads those who have already gone astray because of corruption already in their hearts when God reveals signs that should have guided them to the truth, Bunter actually demonstrates that the corruption in the hearts of disbelievers the Quran describes is real.

In other words, the deceptiveness in Bunter’s argument provides further evidence that the Quran speaks the truth.

So, yes, Bunter’s disbelief is his fault.

 Now, look at his response:

“ . . . what now puzzles me is how can God lead astray someone who has already gone astray? “

 I had just explained and stated, “then God punishes him by leading him further astray

So, I had just elaborated that God leads FURTHER astray as a punishment on those who had already gone astray.

But, look at what his response was:

“ . . . what now puzzles me is how can God lead astray someone who has already gone astray? “

Isn’t that amazing?

He can’t understand how someone lost can become more lost and further from the correct destination?

Such is the confusion in the minds of the disbelievers that the Quran predicts, and that we can see plainly before our eyes to better believe that the Quran is indeed true.

The Quran predicts their confusion (incapable of understanding):

{ … Can you make the deaf to hear you, incapable as they are of understanding ? } Quran, 10:42.

 Bunter says that this behavior makes God malevolent.

He says, “But you here turn God into a malevolent individual” (page 21)

and later:

I can understand Satan leading you astray but having Allah endorse it seems to make Allah vindictive (page 21).

 God miraculously anticipated this argument 1400 years ago and stated:

{ … God did not wrong them, but they wronged themselves: the evil which they did recoiled upon themselves …. } Quran, 16:34.

and

{ Truly, in no way does God wrong mankind, but men wrong themselves. } (Quran, 10:44)

 

Part 2, Honeto tries to explain it to Bunter:

 Honeto then came in and pointed out that even according to Bunter’s own Bible, God does indeed turn people over into disbelief:

Honeto says (page 22):

Let me help you with this bunter, . . . :

Acts 7:41 That was the time they made an idol in the form of a calf. They brought sacrifices to it and reveled in what their own hands had made. 42 But God turned away from them and gave them over to the worship of the sun, moon and stars.

 What does it mean to “give something over” to something else?

For example, when a guard gives a prisoner over to a jailer, the guard is taking an action upon that prisoner. The guard is causing something to happen to the prisoner (being given over to the jailer).

So, when God “gave them over to” the worship of the sun and moon, God was causing something to happen to them.

 How does Bunter respond?

Deceptively, as usual, Bunter changes the subject and claims that the Biblical verse is actually referring to Honeto.

 He insults Honeto’s thinking skills and says to Honeto that the Biblical verses, “refer to you not me.”

 That’s not the point. The point is that the Bible is showing that God takes action that gives some people over further to worse disbelief.

The disbelieving Israelites started off with just the worship of an idol of a calf, and God extended it into the worship of the sun, moon, and stars.

 We see this again starting in the Bible’s Romans 1:18:

{

The Wrath of God is being revealed . . . .

. . .

. . . and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images

. . .

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity . . . .

}

 So, the wrath of God was such to punish the disbelievers’ idol worship by making them into sexual perverts also.

 But Bunter did not respond to the actual point Honeto was making.

Instead of acknowledging Honeto’s point that the Bible had God doing similar things as God’s action in the Quran that Bunter had complained about, Bunter insults Honeto and then changes the subject and talks about something different.

That is a deceptive tactic, indeed, which the Quran predicts:

{ . . . And so the devils teach their followers to argue with you . . . . } (Quran, 7:121) and,

{ . . . Those who disbelieve dispute with false arguments in order to confute the truth . . . . } Quran, 18:56

 And just as the Quran predicted, when Honeto showed Bunter that the Bible contained the samething that the Quran criticized, Bunter responded with false arguments.

 

Part 3, then I added some Biblical verses to further Honeto’s point.

 I said (page 22), here is another bit from the Bible that also shows  God barring knowledge from disbelievers in order to punish them:

Mark,
4:11 { . . . But to those on the outside, everything is said in parables so that they may see but not perceive, hear but never understand, otherwise they might convert and be forgiven. }

 God’s prophet, Jesus, is taking measures to prevent the disbelievers from understanding and converting to be forgiven.

 Then I pointed out,
There, Jesus is paraphrasing Isiah 6, 10-11 where it also adds
{ Make the hearts of the people calloused . . . otherwise they might understand and convert.}

 But it is interesting to view how if the Quran says something, then the Christians say it is terrible, even when it confirms that part of their own scriptures. Thus do we see how the hearts of the disbelievers are corrupted.

 The proofs above would have humbled the hearts of all but the most extremely hard hearted, deceptive, disbelievers; but Bunter was not in the least deterred.

As his custom, he tried to cover his previous deception by adding new deception on top of it.

Instead of apologizing for his previous deception which we had exposed, Bunter shamelessly says, “There is a world of difference between God hiding something that only he knows in scripture and a Scripture you can understand but not accept.”

The verse I quoted stated that Jesus spoke in parables so that the disbelievers would, “never understand,” so that they will never “convert and be forgiven.”

This is not a communication that was understood but not accept as Bunter claims; it is one that, as the Bible states, the disbelievers will “never understand.” 

I also quoted another verse from Isaiah explaining that God would make the hearts of the disbelievers callous so that they would not understand. 

Bunter twists “not understand” into “you can understand but not accept.”

The Quran predicts the Christian disbelievers twisting their own books:

{ And there are some among them (Jews and Christians) who twist their tongues when quoting the scriptures, so that you may think it is from the scriptures, whereas it is not from the scriptures.

They say, “this is from God,” whereas it is not from God. Thus they knowingly ascribe falsehood to God. } Quran, 3:78

 

The Quran commands the Muslims to ask the Christians:

{ . . . why do bar believers from the path of God and seek to make it crooked when you have witnessed it . . . } Quran, 3:99.

 

So, when the Bible discusses God hardening hearts, preventing disbelievers from understanding, leading into temptation, giving ambiguous communications, then the disbelievers pretend that it is not there (or that it is okay for the Bible). But for the Quran, it is terrible.

 


Part 4, Bunter just repeats the same arguments we previously had proved to be false and deceptive:

 

So then what is Bunter’s response to the fact that his own Bible states that Jesus did things so that the disbelievers would not understand?

Bunter says in response that the parables, “. . . convey a clear message but some refuse to accept it.” (page 25)

So, he just repeated the same argument we just refuted, even though I had pointed out in detail.

 So, here is a summarized version of the discussion:

Beebok: the Bible says in Mark 4:11, “never understand.”

Bunter: No, it says, “you can understand but not accept.”

Beebok: it’s right there in plain sight: “never understand.

Bunter: The parablesconvey a clear message but some refuse to accept it.”

 So, even when the Bible is quoted directly and repeatedly, he refuses to acknowledge it and repeats the same argument that everyone saw was refuted.

That level of audacity is incredible!

 He knows we can see the verses right there in front of us, yet he has the audacity to pretend that they are not there.

 It is as if the disbelievers like Bunter are pointing to a mountain that they know that we can see, and they are telling us, “nope, there is no mountain there.”

 

Part 5, Bunter rejects his own Bible:

 So, although in the Bible Jesus clearly says, and I quote:

 Mark, 4:11 { . . . But to those on the outside, everything is said in parables so that they may see but not perceive, hear but never understand, otherwise they might convert and be forgiven. }

and  Isiah 6, 10-11 where it also adds
{ Make the hearts of the people calloused . . . otherwise they might understand and convert.}

And Acts 7:14 where God gives the disbelievers over to further and worse disbelief, and Romans 1:18 where God punishes disbelievers by also making them into sexual perverts and the Lords Prayer where they pray to not be led into temptation.

 Bunter says that the Bible says that the people can understand, but won’t accept it.

 So, his Bible is clearly saying one thing, and he is saying the opposite. He has not only rejected the Quran, he has even rejected his own Bible.

Yet he has the nerve to accuse me of being hard hearted:

 Bunter says to me, “…the more I speak to you about them the harder your heart becomes….”

 Wow! How hard-hearted is the disbeliever, Bunter, that the verses of the Bible can be put in front of his own eyes, and yet he can say that the opposite is there, and then accuse me of being hard-hearted?

After so much hard-heartedness that he rejects what is directly in front of him, he is even more hard-hearted and accuses me of doing the very thing that everyone can plainly see that he is doing.

 This is much like the miracles of the Quran that are right there in front of their eyes, but they pretend that they are not there, as if we can’t see them there right in front of us.

 So, they deny the verses in their own book that we point out, and they deny the verses in our own book that we point out.

 What does the Quran say about such people:

{…We have cast veils over their hearts lest they understand Our words . . . . }

 

Part 6, God punishes the Biblical Paul into worse disbelief.

 Bunter says, “God never turns anyone away and we have examples such as the apostle Paul who was viciously anti Christian, with no faith yet God still called him.”

Actually, Paul is a great example of God leading someone astray. God was a monotheist Jew who sinfully murdered Christians and rejected the true prophet Jesus.

So, as a punishment, God confused Paul into a polytheist worshipping Jesus as an idol, and so, Paul went even further astray into worse disbelief.

Paul went from murder and rejecting a prophet to full blown pagan idol worship by elevating a prophet to the status of a god.

So, the example that Bunter gives of God guiding a hardened sinner is actually an example of God punishing someone with worse disbelief.

 Bunter says, “otherwise surely he would try again to help somone towards belief not make it progressively worse.” (page 21).

He is assuming that God does no such thing. Actually, God does make many signs to the disbelievers to bring them back.

Look at for example all of the miracles of the Quran which we are showing them; and so many of their deceptions that we are pointing out.

These are all means for them to realize their error and see that Islam is the truth. But look how they respond with even more audacious deceptions. Thus do we see the verses of the Quran come true before our very eyes.

 Bunter had said, “otherwise surely he would try again to help somone towards belief not make it progressively worse.”

And as the Quran explains, God does send repeated signs to guide the disbelieving rebels back. Over and over again He sends them signs and warnings.

But when the disbelieving rebels twist the meanings of the signs into excuses for further rebellion, then at some point the punishment must descend upon them.

 The disbelieving rebels then have the nerve to say that they were wronged. God gives them this response:

{ Truly, in no way does God wrong mankind, but men wrong themselves. } (Quran, 10:44)

and

{ … God did not wrong them, but they wronged themselves: the evil which they did recoiled upon themselves …. } Quran, 16:34.

 Bunter says that God surely “would try again to help someone towards belief.”

As if Bunter knows what God would do !

 The Quran goes on to explain that even if the disbelievers were given an outlandish miracle such as being lifted up to the heavens, the disbelievers who just look for excuses to not believe would say something like they must have just hallucinated:

{ If We open for the unbelievers a gate in heaven and they ascended through it higher and higher, still they would say, “our eyes were only dazzled; surely we must have been bewitched.} Quran,  15:17 

So, no matter what proofs God shows them, the corruption and hardness in the hearts of the disbelievers will twist the meaning of those proofs into further excuses to go FURTHER astray, as the Quran already described.

But Bunter thinks that he knows what God would do: surely God, “would try again to . . . .”

 Bunter says, “Bible teaches that God seeks after us and we can seek after him - we can even start from total unbelief but we are taught that if we seek God he will be found.” (page 21)

As if the Quran doesn’t teach that also !

What deception.

Of course, the Quran teaches that also. But the Quran and the Bible also teach that those who disbelieve can be turned further away.

When we point out such verses in the Bible, Bunter pretends that such verses say something other than they clearly state.

 “Bunter says, “God never turns anyone away,”

Note the deception in his argument.

The Quran does not say that God turns someone away the way the Bunter claims.

The Quran says that God sends FURTHER astray those who already rebelled.

Bunter twists and confuses sending someone who has already gone away being pushed further away with turning someone away who has come looking for God.

What deception !

 but then when we point out in his own Bible that has prayers to, “lead us not into temptation,” and Isiah which says that God hardens the hearts of the unbelievers, and Jesus putting things in parables so that the unbelievers will never believe, he pretends that such verses are not there, as if we can’t see them.

 

Part 7, Satan’s initial disbelief is like Bunter’s disbelief.

 The Quran provides a template on how disbelief starts with the example of Satan:

 When God commands all in heaven to bow respectfully before Adam, Satan pridefully refuses, and God banishes Satan.

 Satan defiantly says to God,  { Because you have sent me astray, I will ambush your servants as they walk on the straight path. } Quran, 7:16

 Thus does the Quran say that Satan became an unbeliever, Quran, 2:34.

 How does that relate to Bunter?

 Just as Satan falsely claims that God had wronged him, Bunter also states that God’s misleading the arrogant and prideful disbelievers into worse disbelief can be “malevolent,” and “vindictive.” They both claim that God has done wrong.

 Then, like Satan who sets out to ambush true believers with false arguments, so does Bunter.

 

Part 8, Finally, the incredible miracles of the Quran just in this discussion:

 

This particular discussion started with Bunter complaining about this verse of the Quran:

 { … By such comparisons God misleads many and enlightens many, but He misleads none except the rebellious . } Quran, 2:26.

 Bunter complains that this makes God “malevolent,” and “vindicative.”

 Here are some of the miracles covered in this post:

1. The very verse of the Quran that states that some verses of the Quran will cause the rebellious to go further astray, causes the rebellious Bunter to go further astray, right before our eyes

2. The template that the Quran shows for disbelief with the example of Satan is the same blueprint for Bunter’s disbelief. Thus did the Quran understand the disbelievers better than they understand themselves.

3. The Quran predicts that the disbelieving Christians will alter their own scriptures in order to deceive the Muslims, and indeed we see that when the Bible says, “not understand,” the disbeliever Bunter claims that it says that it says, understand but not accept.

4. The Quran predicts that the disbelievers will argue with deception, and indeed, when we point out to them what is in their own book, they repeatedly deny it.

5. The Quran’s pattern of further disbelief is seen by Paul.

 Indeed, even if I had see Moses’ staff eat the snakes of the Pharoah’s magicians, or if I had seen Jesus turn a clay bird into a real bird, it would not have been as impressive as seeing the verses of the Quran written 1400 years ago, predicting the behavior of the disbelievers exactly, and showing a better understanding of their minds than they understand of themselves.



Edited by Beebok - 06 October 2012 at 8:37pm
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 5:27am
Originally posted by bunter



One might contrast this with Muslims (you may not be one of them) who seem forever to be offering proofs in such things as the supposed Scientific Miracles or what they call the unparalleled nature of the Quran or else trying to undermine the Bible or some other scripture. When I see this I often wonder if there is in fact any faith at all or a faith that needs to be constantly propped up.


Mr. Bunter we are not here to convince anybody. As muslims we don't give one iota of what people think or believe '..to you your religion and to me mine...'. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Holy Qur'an that we should not worry about the unbelievers because He will eventually deal with them. We cannot burden your sins nor can you burden mine. We will all be judged individually according to our deeds as recorded in the 'book'.

But having said all that Muslims do not want anybody to go to hell and thus this is the reason that we engage with non-believers in the faint hope that they will see the light and have the tiniest chance of salvation.

If it makes anybody happy, it says in the Bible and the Holy Qur'an that the majority of human beings are going to hell.
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 8:17am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

Mr. Bunter we are not here to convince anybody. As muslims we don't give one iota of what people think or believe '..to you your religion and to me mine...'. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala tells us in the Holy Qur'an that we should not worry about the unbelievers because He will eventually deal with them. We cannot burden your sins nor can you burden mine. We will all be judged individually according to our deeds as recorded in the 'book'.

But having said all that Muslims do not want anybody to go to hell and thus this is the reason that we engage with non-believers in the faint hope that they will see the light and have the tiniest chance of salvation.

If it makes anybody happy, it says in the Bible and the Holy Qur'an that the majority of human beings are going to hell.


Well that perhaps is different from the Bible where believers are encourage to spread the good news. Where in the Bible does it say that most will end up in hell - I cannot recall any such verse?

Edited by bunter - 07 October 2012 at 8:18am
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 07 October 2012 at 9:47am
Originally posted by Beebok

I do wish Beebok would just reply simply without endless lines of HTML.

Firstly, I am not complaining about anything, just recording what the Quran seems to be saying. Beebok quotes Q2:26 “… By such comparisons God misleads (Yuzillu) many and enlightens many, but He misleads none except the rebellious (Fasiqun).” My point has always been that it is God who deliberately misleads and in what sense can God mislead those who are already rebellions, that is, already misled? What purpose can God have by deliberately making people even worse than they already are? If you say its punishment then punishment is supposed to bring us back on track not sent us even further off it.

Beebok then quotes Q2:10 “In their hearts there is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease….” Here we have the same idea of Allah deliberately making these worse. One has to ask of course where did the unbelief and hypocrisy originate? But then Beebok suggests that Allah increases the faith of some so that the unbelievers get even worse in their unbelief. This does not sound like God, my heart and the Bible tells me that God always wants to forgive not act vindictively. We find in Jeremiah 29:13 "Then you will seek Me, inquire for, and require Me [as a vital necessity] and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." God never turns anyone away no matter how small their faith, even those who are just hanging on with their fingertips so to speak.

Beebok then makes a rather odd argument, citing Q16:34 “… God did not wrong them, but they wronged themselves: the evil which they did recoiled upon themselves …. “ So now it’s not Allah leading them astray but they are doing it themselves, which of course makes more sense. Can’t you see that IF Allah causes people to go astray then that is an evil thing to do. In fact Q10:44 says “Truly, in no way does God wrong mankind, but men wrong themselves. So either these verses are contradictory or Beebok is not interpreting them aright.

If we look at Acts 7:41-42 we have God turning away from the evildoers, he does not step in and make it worse. If we now look at Mark 4:11 (and Isaiah 6:10-11) it is clear the verses mean that there are those who will effectively refuse to listen and understand. What the verses refers to is willful rejection of the truth, there is no hint that God steps in and deliberately makes it worse. By way of illustration the Bible says John 11:25-26 (AMP) "Jesus said to her, I am [Myself] the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on) Me, although he may die, yet he shall live; And whoever continues to live and believes in (has faith in, cleaves to, and relies on) Me shall never [actually] die at all." Do you believe this? If not then Mark 4:11 is talking about you because the meaning in these words is plain yet you reject it? You also have clearly not read Isaiah 1:18 which says, “Come let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be a white as snow, though they are red like crimson, they shall be like wool.” – does that sound like a God who leads people astray, no it sounds like a God who is looking for the very worst to bring then back?

With regard to twisting scriptures then any one may do that with any scripture, neither the Bible nor Quran are immune from reading meaning into them instead of from them. If Q3:78 is saying that Muslims cannot twist scriptures then it is obviously wrong. Even what we do here illustrates that the Bible is correct because Beebok’s charge is that I am an unbeliever that I can’t see the truth yet the Quran is clear. So which is it; that God deliberately does this or is it my own heart and selfishness that blocks out God message?

Then we have the unbelievable and totally scandalous and an insult to God’s in that God deliberately according to Beebok “Paul is a great example of God leading someone astray.” Why don’t I just say “Muhammad is a great example of God leading someone astray” – that makes perfect sense does it not from Jewish or Christian perspective? With silly arguments like this we can make anything appear to be true.

One final word about proofs and miracles. Now there are plenty of miracles in the Bible but that does not stop unbelief. There is a telling story, rather like a parable in Luke 16 about a beggar called Lazarus who sat at a rich man’s gate. Eventually, in the story, Lazarus goes to heaven and this rich man to hell. This rich man in his suffering sees Abraham and Lazarus in heaven and calls out to them to send Lazarus back to warn his brothers so that they will not end up like him – he wanted a kind of proof for his brothers. But Abraham calls back and says “They (the brothers) have Moses and the prophets..” meaning if they reject God’s revealed word then nothing, no miracles or proof will convince them.

So we have a kind of impasse – you reject the Bible, Moses and the prophets so you are on your way to hell. No doubt you say I reject the Quran so I am heading in the same direction. Well it comes down now to examining the evidence and listening to the Sprit of God, not me or Beebok, but listening to God.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by bunter



 Where in the Bible does it say that most will end up in hell - I cannot recall any such verse?


"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."  Matthew 7:14

and I believe this is true and applies to people of all faiths.  There are those who are on a right path, and there are those who are astray, in all faiths.  God knows who among them are on a right path, of those who seek to belong to Him.  Granted there are those... polytheists... hindu's or Buddhist's.. or atheist's...  who do not seek to belong to our God, but who seek a different path.


Edited by Caringheart - 08 October 2012 at 12:51pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by bunter




What I see as the problem is that those who follow Islam have not accepted the new covenant... the one that Jesus brought.  What Islam does is try to renew the old covenant... the old testament ways of God.  But God decided to "do a new thing".. to bring a new covenant for the people to follow. 

“Forget the former things;
    do not dwell on the past.
19 Behold, I am doing a new thing!
    Now it springs up; do you not perceive it?
I am making a way in the wilderness
    and streams in the wasteland. - Isaiah 43

God decides to show us His Love in Jesus, rather than the wrath He had previously shown to try to bring His people in line.  It is through Love that we will be saved.  But it is love that is missing from the Islamic faith.  They have duty, obligation, rules... but they do not have Love.

If I speak with human eloquence and angelic ecstasy but don't love, I'm nothing but the creaking of a rusty gate.
If I speak God's Word with power, revealing all his mysteries and making everything plain as day, and if I have faith that says to a mountain, "Jump," and it jumps, but I don't love, I am nothing.
If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere.
So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love. (1 Corinthians 13:1-7, The Message)


Just my humble opinion.
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