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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


10:24


Greetings Abu Loren,

Thank you and I appreciate your reply very much.

The way I am seeing it, Muhammad's 'hadiths and sayings' that 'are full of wisdom' , come from the Judeo-Christian religion... yes, from above, to the Jews and through Jesus.

"You have to open your heart and get rid of your pre-conceptions taught to you by Christian priests, preachers and missionaries. "

This is a misconception.  This is not the way I have gained my belief.  I was not taught by priests, preachers, or missionaries.  I read the Bible.  Now I am reading the Qur'an.

Why do Muslims discount the fact that Muhammad was traveling since the time he was a young child, exposed to many things, including the religion in other parts?  Where was Jesus as a child?  Sitting in the synagogues, listening to the teachers there.  Why not Muhammad?  Muhammad also had a much older wife who was very familiar with Christian teaching.  Muhammad had had a lifetime of exposure to learning by the time he made his 'revelations'.  I do not discount that Muhammad was a great leader for his people. 

Regarding the first verse(10:22-23)... it reminds me of when Jesus' disciples were in the boat crossing the sea of Galilee and a storm blew up and they were afraid, and Jesus rebuked them for their disbelief, and calmed the storms, and they said who is this that even calms the seas.(Mark 4:35-41, Luke 8:22-25 and Matthew 8:23-27)  Yes, it is perfectly possible for Muhammad to retell the story in his own words.  Yes, I believe both verses are perfectly capable of being spoken by a human with knowledge.  This is my opinion as I read, and I am reading with an open mind... but I have read the Bible first... the Bible came first.  What no one realizes is that I actually began in defense against the accusations brought against the Qur'an.  This is what has brought me into deeper study of Islam.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart
[/QUOTE]
 
Yes you keep saying that Muhammed (pbuh) copied parts from the Bible and that he made up the Holy Qur'an. You still cannot see the divine wisdom contained within the Holy Qur'an. Shame though.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 2:24pm
Greetings Abu Loren,

I don't know that I say Muhammad made up the Qur'an.  He may very well have believed he was Divinely inspired.  The supposed beauty of the poetry of the Qur'an, which has been attested too, is certainly unaccountable.  I can't comment on that because I would not understand it in Arabic.  What I say is that any wisdom that I do see in the Qur'an is first seen in the Bible, and that since there is so much that does not make sense, or have any meaning, in the Qur'an, I can not believe it is the thing it is claimed to be, but rather Muhammad sharing what he understood from other sources.  He very well may have thought it was God revealing it to him.


Edited by Caringheart - 29 September 2012 at 2:29pm
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

I cannot help you understand the Holy Qur'an as you will need faith and then guidance from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. I believe in Muhammed (pbuh) because what he says a mere human being cannot say. His hadiths and sayings are full of wisdom that it can only come from above. Contrary to what you Christians believe Muhammed (pbuh0 advocated love between human beings not hatred nor death. I have read the Holy Qur'an in the English translation as I do not know Arabic ( I can read the Holy Qur'an in Arabic but do not understand what I am reading, one will still receive blessing for every Arabic letter that is read from the Holy Qur'an). You have to open your heart and get rid of your pre-conceptions taught to you by Christian priests, preachers and missionaries.

Read the Holy Qur'an properly and you will see that it is impossible for an Arab living in Mecca in the seventh century AD to know what is in the Holy Qur'an. He relates stories from the Bible with crystal clarity, not humanly possible.

Muhsin Khan

He it is Who enables you to travel through land and sea, till when you are in the ships and they sail with them with a favourable wind, and they are glad therein, then comes a stormy wind and the waves come to them from all sides, and they think that they are encircled therein, they invoke Allah, making their Faith pure for Him Alone, saying: "If You (Allah) deliver us from this, we shall truly be of the grateful.
But when He delivered them, behold! They rebel (disobey Allah) in the earth wrongfully. O mankind! Your rebellion (disobedience to Allah) is only against your ownselves, - a brief enjoyment of this worldly life, then (in the end) unto Us is your return, and We shall inform you that which you used to do.
10:22-23

Do you think a human being is capable of such simplicity as the above quoted verses? Or the one below...

Sahih International
The example of [this] worldly life is but like rain which We have sent down from the sky that the plants of the earth absorb - [those] from which men and livestock eat - until, when the earth has taken on its adornment and is beautified and its people suppose that they have capability over it, there comes to it Our command by night or by day, and We make it as a harvest, as if it had not flourished yesterday. Thus do We explain in detail the signs for a people who give thought.
10:24
Greetings Abu Loren,Thank you and I appreciate your reply very much.The way I am seeing it, Muhammad's 'hadiths and sayings' that 'are full of wisdom' , come from the Judeo-Christian religion... yes, from above, to the Jews and through Jesus."You have to open your heart and get rid of your pre-conceptions taught to you by Christian priests, preachers and missionaries. "This is a misconception. This is not the way I have gained my belief. I was not taught by priests, preachers, or missionaries. I read the Bible. Now I am reading the Qur'an.Why do Muslims discount the fact that Muhammad was traveling since the time he was a young child, exposed to many things, including the religion in other parts? Where was Jesus as a child? Sitting in the synagogues, listening to the teachers there. Why not Muhammad? Muhammad also had a much older wife who was very familiar with Christian teaching. Muhammad had had a lifetime of exposure to learning by the time he made his 'revelations'. I do not discount that Muhammad was a great leader for his people. Regarding the first verse(10:22-23)... it reminds me of when Jesus' disciples were in the boat crossing the sea of Galilee and a storm blew up and they were afraid, and Jesus rebuked them for their disbelief, and calmed the storms, and they said who is this that even calms the seas.(Mark 4:35-41, Luke 8:22-25 and Matthew 8:23-27) Yes, it is perfectly possible for Muhammad to retell the story in his own words. Yes, I believe both verses are perfectly capable of being spoken by a human with knowledge. This is my opinion as I read, and I am reading with an open mind... but I have read the Bible first... the Bible came first. What no one realizes is that I actually began in defense against the accusations brought against the Qur'an. This is what has brought me into deeper study of Islam.Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart


Caringheart,
you are reading the Quran with the idea that the Porphet (pbuh) has somehow copied it from other sources. I am not sure how much benefit you will have with that mind set but I hope and pray that you still benefit from it.

I do not know of any man, who on his own without divine help could write a book that could shape and move as many lives as the Quran did and does and will do till the end. Can you name any?

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 29 September 2012 at 3:10pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 29 September 2012 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by honeto



Caringheart,
you are reading the Quran with the idea that the Porphet (pbuh) has somehow copied it from other sources. I am not sure how much benefit you will have with that mind set but I hope and pray that you still benefit from it.

I do not know of any man, who on his own without divine help could write a book that could shape and move as many lives as the Quran did and does and will do till the end. Can you name any?

Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

I am not reading the Qur'an with the mind set that it was copied.  That is not how I began at all.  I began reading to understand... to understand Islam.  It is just that from the beginning of my exposure to the Qur'an I have seen similarities... to what is in the Bible.

"Can you name any?"

Yes.  The Bible. Smile


I would like to know the poetry of the Qur'an since that is what is considered so special about it, but will never have that experience because I will never know arabic.  Unhappy

Caringheart
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2012 at 4:05am
Originally posted by bunter


What an odd idea, surely God made the Universe and so Ohms law is part of his creation? Your idea that the Bible has been abrogated is very odd - for example it has the ten commandments which include love God, do not steal, do not tell lies - are you saying these basic morality laws have been done away with something else?


There are no instructions either in the Torah, Injil or the Holy Qur'an in how to fit an electric plug. Now we are getting into silliness.

The Ten Commandments are still there in the Holy Qur'an, it tells you what to do with a murderer, adulterer etc etc. It just does not begin with...
1) Thou shall not kill
2) Thou shall not commit adultery....

It would really help if you just read the Holy Qur'an in it's entirety and the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) so you will know what you are talking about. It's pointless debating with somebody who hasn't got a clue about what Islam is all about.
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2012 at 4:09am
Originally posted by bunter


Thank you, but are you not able to see that a Christian will say the words of Jesus cannot be those of a mere human being. I cannot help you understand the Bible, you must read it for yourself because nothing I say will convince you if the Bible does not. Try starting with the Gospel of Mark.

I think if you want to see if the Quran relates Bible stories with crystal clarity you must read those stories for yourself in the Bible. If you do you will find that what the Quran relates always differs in some way from the Bible accounts so one or other is wrong.


I have read the Bible countless times as I used to be Christian :) In fact the Bible makes more sense after you read the Holy Qur'an because you will discern truth from fiction. The Qur'an differs in some ways because the falsehood is taken away and replaced with the truth, so actually the Qur'an makes more sense than the Bible.
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2012 at 7:29am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

I have read the Bible countless times as I used to be Christian :) In fact the Bible makes more sense after you read the Holy Qur'an because you will discern truth from fiction. The Qur'an differs in some ways because the falsehood is taken away and replaced with the truth, so actually the Qur'an makes more sense than the Bible.
I think you greatly exaggerate when you say you have read the Bible 'countless times' no matter some questions.

1. give me an example of a truth we might find in the Quran that is not in the Bible?

2. Tell me something in the Bible that makes more sense after reading the Quran?

3. The ten commandments are in the Bible, please explain how they are falsehoods or fiction?

Edited by bunter - 30 September 2012 at 7:29am
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Quote bunter Replybullet Posted: 30 September 2012 at 7:38am
Originally posted by Abu Loren

There are no instructions either in the Torah, Injil or the Holy Qur'an in how to fit an electric plug. Now we are getting into silliness.
And who suggested they were? If this is about silliness then recall it was you who suggested that it was only the Quran that contained truth and that God was not concerned with Ohms law.
The Ten Commandments are still there in the Holy Qur'an, it tells you what to do with a murderer, adulterer etc etc. It just does not begin with...1) Thou shall not kill 2) Thou shall not commit adultery....

It would really help if you just read the Holy Qur'an in it's entirety and the hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh) so you will know what you are talking about. It's pointless debating with somebody who hasn't got a clue about what Islam is all about.


So the Quran only contains what was in the Bible? I have read the Quran and Hadith (not all of them) so presumably I do know at least a little of what I am talking about.


Edited by bunter - 30 September 2012 at 7:40am
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