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Interfaith Dialogue
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 1:34pm
Originally posted by Beebok

The Quran is complete by itself. It does not rely on any other scripture. It makes references to previous scripture, but it does not need them. The Quran provides everything you need by itself.
What a pity that most Muslims don't believe this!  I have opened a separate topic to discuss this:
Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2012 at 4:28pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Sorry, Beebok, a debate is not possible. My reply got deleted.



Matt,
I know the feeling.
Nothing like the feeling of having wasted lots of time.  Unhappy
Funny thing is, I don't want debate, only conversation, to better know one another.


Edited by Caringheart - 13 August 2012 at 4:31pm
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2012 at 8:22am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2012 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Abu Loren

All Christians please watch this.
 


Ok.  I will.  As soon as I can get to another computer.
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2012 at 7:18pm
CaringHeart:
"which I can't do, due to health, energy and time reasons. "

Okay.

I can sympathize with that.

I also have health, energy, and time constraints.

------------------

CaringHeart, ". . . have conversation, which is what I want . . . ."

Okay. I'll assume that your statement is sincere and that you really want an educational discussion.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, unless I see too many reasons to see it otherwise.

--------------


CaringHeart, "The confusion among Christians does not remain."

On the contrary, get a Jehova's Witness and a Southern Baptist in a room and see how they can not agree on the nature of Jesus.

Indeed, look at a Southern Baptist convention and see how often you get disagreements.

One type of Christianity did become predominant after others like the Arians and Cathars were wiped out.

But in the early days, there were many conflicting understandings of Jesus, and there are such conflicts even today, despite the efforts of the various inquisitions to maintain uniformity.


---------

CaringHeart, "as long as his (Muhammad's) message contains prejudice"

Muhammad once said (I paraphrase),

"An Arab is not superior to a Persian, nor vice versa,
A red man (European) is not superior to a black man, nor vice versa,
All humans are equal, and it is their faith that makes them better or worse in the sight of God
."

On another instance he said,
"All people are equal before God like the teeth of a comb, only their piety differentiates them."

What had happened in that situation was that a wealthy, powerful Quarysh man named Ummayah had asked Muhammad about some messages of Islam and Muhammad had mentioned that statement above.

Ummayah mocked and pointed at a slave of his from Africa and said, "you mean that slave is equal to me?"

Muhammad said, yes.

Ummayah had his slave, Bilal, beaten, and said, "do you still say he is equal to me?"

Muhammad said, yes.

Bilal then converted to Islam.
Ummayah, infuriated, had Bilal tortured, but Bilal refused to give up.

Muhammad's friend, Abu Bakr, then purchased Bilal and set him free.
Bilal became the ummah's first muezzin (Muslim community's first prayer caller).

You say Islam teaches prejudice; but Islam forbids racism, or tribal supremicism, or geographic supremecism.

If you mean religious supremicism then remember that Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, devils, etc.
Besides, if a religion does turn out to be the only correct one, then it will not have been prejudiced to have noted the others as wrong.

----------

CaringHeart, ". . . killing and hate, . . . ."

If God commands you to kill for His sake or hate for His sake, or do something else for His sake which you do not like, will you say that you have better ethics and wisdom than God?

If you thaink that you know which direction to take as well as God knows, and your conjecture will match His Wisdom, then you might want to remember your limitations as a human, and His Omnipotence.

Islam commands fighting against those who commit oppression and persecution. This is a great virtue and a great benefit for the world.
Jihad is a blessing for the world.

Why does Christianity not have Jihad if it is truly an ethical religion?
Why does Christianity allow the oppressors to have their way and not be challenged and fought?
Christianity's defeciency of this blessing to humanity is a serious and glaring flaw and shows that another revelation was necessary.
Jihad is a blessing to humanity which Christianity sorely lacks.
Christians have had crusades into the holy lands for loot and power, but not for justice.
Fighting for justice and ending oppression are not part of Christianity. Islam is clearly morrally superior in this respect.

----------------

CaringHeart, "Muhammad did his murdering, pillaging, and taking of slaves . . . ."

Who do you think Muhammad killed wrongly (murder)?
Paul killed God's true followers (followers of Jesus then were Muslims).

Muhammad waged war and killed those who had waged war on Muslims. There is no injustice there.
Islam commanded killing murderers and adulterers. These were accordig to the revealed laws of God.

Paul's killings were extra-judicial, and so were murderous.

When did Muhammad take spoils of war or slaves from those nations who had attacked Muslims (pillaging as you call it) outside the laws that God had commanded?
Those who had oppressed the Muslims were defeated, and most often shown forgiveness.

{
A prophet may not take captives until he has fought and triumphed in the land.
}
(Quran: 8,67)

Even so, they are often given freedom later.

{
When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take a ransom from them, until war shall lay down her burden.
}
(Quran: 4,4)

The commands on the spoils of war and how they are to be divided are clear.
Muslims are forbidden to fight merely for loot and spoils, but are permitted to take them from those who have first waged war on the Muslims.
The details of the rules are given elsewhere, but Muhammad followed them according to God's instructions.

Muhammad had a slave who was taken captive  for having waged war against Muslims. The family of that slave of Muhammad came back to claim him, and Muhammad offered the slave his freedom to go back to his family.
The slave chose to stay due to the kindness that Muhammad had shown him. Such was the extraordinary character and behavior of God's prophet.
Islam made the freeing of slaves a good deed.

{
Prophet, say to those you have taken captive, "If God finds goodness in your hearts, He will give you that which is better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you. God is forgiving and merciful."
But if they (the captives) seek to betray you,, know they have already betrayed God. Therefore He has made you triumph over them. God is the All-Knowing, the All-Understanding
.

}
(Quran, 8:71)

Muhammad did not kill unjustly, nor did he take spoils or captives unjustly.
All was done according to the revealed commands of God.

Paul's killings were done on innocents who were spreading God's truth.
Paul's killings were outside the commands and so were a form of persecution.

So, Paul cannot be trusted since he was an oppressor. His character is shown to be flawed.
Muhammad was never an oppressor; but rather always a humble slave of God. His character was pristine, compassionate, just, and obedient, in an extraordinary and exemplar fashion.

-----------

CaringHeart:" I defer to the original followers of the one God."

Followers of monotheism existed long before the Jews, going back even before Noah and Abraham, and even back to Adam.

Anyways, ever since they rejected the prophethood of Jesus, they have no religious credibility.
I think they are telling you what you want to hear to win favors from you, like more military support for their stolen territory on Palestine.

I defer to the final prophet of God.
Worship of any other than God is idol worship.
The trinity is polytheism, through and through.

-------

CaringHeart:
". . . he knew that greater things were possible... he knew that the way to the future was in following their way. "

As leader, he could have changed the behavior of the Quarysh.

The pagan Quarysh used to abandon their infant daughters in the desert out of shame.
Islam forbade such things.

If all Muhammad wanted was to improve their behavior, he could have accepted their leadership.
All he had to do was to stop renouncing their Gods.

I renounce two of your gods.
You have an idol in your mind which is your mental concept of Jesus.

I accept the real Jesus as prophet, but the real Jesus and the Jesus idol in your mind are two completely different things.

As Muhammad renounced the idols of the Quarysh, and Abrham renounced the idols of his tribe, I renounce your mental image of Jesus and the holy spirit, which you have made into idols.

--------

Ron Webb said, "Is the Quran complete, or does it need hadith," after I had written, "It (the Quran) does not rely on any other scripture."

What a waste of time.
The hadith is not a scripture (not a revelation).

I had said that it does not need other scripture.

Also, many text books come with study guides and study aids, that does not make the text book incomplete.
The text books were complete as the author intended them.

Likewise, the Quran is complete as its Author intended.
The existence of the sunnah does not change that.

I hope someone will copy and post what I wrote above to the new thread.










Edited by Beebok - 15 August 2012 at 8:55pm
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2012 at 4:20am
CaringHeart said, "Matt, I know the feeling.
Nothing like the feeling of having wasted lots of time. "

Don't worry about him. I repeatedly exposed his lack of sincerity and the hypocrisy in his statements. It is astonishing to me that after being exposed so frequently, he lacked such shame to run away, and that he was not embarressed and kept posting.

As for the feeling of wasting time,

{
But the unbelievers shall be consigned to perdition.
He will bring their deeds to nothing. Because they have abhored His revelations, He will frustrate their works.
}
(Quran: 47, 8-9)

So, for the disbelievers, their whole lives are in vain and fruitless.

Everything they do their whole lives will have been a waste of time for themselves.

Every college degree they get, every job they get, every dollar they earn, every dollar they give in charity, every parent they make proud, every home repair they make, every child they raise, every journey they make, every invention they make, every relationship they have, every book they write, every work of art they make, every game they play, every meal they prepare, everything; it will all have been for nothing.


You have before you the Quran, a book filled with miracles, and you have before you Muhammad, the most pristine, pure, transcendant, and exemplary of personalities and characters, though the insincerity and self-corrupted hearts of the disbelievers have blinded them.

So, there is no excuse for a person to disbelieve; and so the disbelievers will have nothing to say on the Day of Judgment other than that they have wronged themselves.




Edited by Beebok - 16 August 2012 at 4:27am
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2012 at 11:30am
Muhammad governed as a man.  He always tried to regulate things as a man would.  This is why we find so much contradiction in Muhammad's words.
Jesus spoke with wisdom beyond that of man.  There is no contradiction in what Jesus taught.  Jesus' message never needs to be 'adjusted' to fit the one he is talking to, or the circumstance in which it finds itself.

"If you mean religious supremicism then remember that Jesus called the Pharisees vipers, devils, etc."
Yes, but He did not say to 'slay them'.

"Besides, if a religion does turn out to be the only correct one, then it will not have been prejudiced to have noted the others as wrong."
Flip that to the other side of the coin... and if it does turn out to be wrong?  
Would any word from God pit His creation one against another.  I do not think so.  Jesus message to love one another... now that is a Word from God.  Love will lead others to God, not the putting to death of His creature.

"If God commands you to kill for His sake or hate for His sake, or do something else for His sake which you do not like, will you say that you have better ethics and wisdom than God?"
I will say, "that is not a Word from God, but a trick of the devil to destroy God's creation."

I can not account for the killing that went on during old testament times, but I know that prophet Isaiah tells us, "thus saith the Lord... See I am doing a new thing, can you not perceive it?"  I believe that new thing was, and is, Jesus.  A new message to love, not kill.
18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it?
________________________________

"If you think that you know which direction to take as well as God knows, and your conjecture will match His Wisdom, then you might want to remember your limitations as a human, and His Omnipotence."
I, all the time do, but I know that God allows us to question Him... just as Job did... and just as Jacob wrestled with Him and ended up with his leg out of joint, and later was able to say, "I have seen God face to face".  I do not fear to wrestle with God.  It is how I come to know Him better.



Christianity does fight for the souls of the world, why do you think there is evangelism.  It was what the Apostles and followers of Christ were told to do... to go and spread the Word... to share the good news... to bring souls to salvation.  As the Qur'an is wont to say, 'fight in the way of Allah'
but what is fighting in the way of God?
Muhammad misunderstood what this fight is... Jesus never meant a battle with swords and killing.  In fact He said to lay down the sword.  The fight is meant to be with the Word of God, and with Love... showing people the Love of God through His Son Jesus Christ, and through His Word, the 'shield of armor'.
How did Muhammad achieve his goal?  Did his followers just get it wrong?  What example did Muhammad set when he began?  He did not win the people with love.  He did it with money and power.


"Why does Christianity allow the oppressors to have their way and not be challenged and fought?"
Who are the oppressors?  Are they not being fought?  Have they not been fought?  How has the entire western world become established as free nations?

"Christians have had crusades into the holy lands for loot and power, but not for justice."
Muhammad used the same methods to further his cause.  The difference is, oppression continues to exist in his lands, while it does not in the western world.
Islam does nothing to end oppression... it does not treat people equally within its own societies.  It treats those it does not approve of as subservient, less than citizens.  It does not allow them to be citizens.


By your own quotes, Muhammad says all are to be treated equally, no master greater than even a slave.

yet by his very words he has created an attitude of superiority among his people so that all people are not considered equally.  He defies his own words.  This is the work of another... not God.  He tries to apply the Word of Jesus, but he fails.  It is Jesus who taught us that God shall raise the meek and the humble.  It was Jesus who taught us that no master was greater than any slave.

Jesus showed us what it is to be a slave.  He did not come as a master, but as a slave to show us the way.


I will need to take this in parts, since it is so long.  This is as far as I care to go for now.

We also should probably create a new thread for this conversation. Wink

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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2012 at 8:54pm

Matt Browne asked how we can know that Muhammad really saw the angel Gabriel.

Matt Browne was so sad about not debating, I’ll give one piece of the puzzle of how we can know that Muhammad’s sight of Gabriel was real.

 

Here follows an event from another time in Muhammad’s life to illustrate his veracity from which we can add to other events to form a foundation for determining Muhammad’s reliability.

 

The event of the battle in Badr valley:

 

Just the facts,

 

  1. The army of the Quraysh pagans was about 1000 strong.
  2. The Muslim army had about 300 to 315 fighters.
  3. As the Quraysh pagan army was winning, they suddenly turned around and fled in chaos.
  4. The Badr valley is surrounded by mountains on all sides. There are only three narrow ways in and out of the valley.
  5. The night before the battle, there had been a substantial rain and the ground was damp on the day of the battle.

 

The Battle of Badr, a quick summary,

 

After losing some man to man duels against the Muslims, the pagan Quraysh descended on the Muslims with a fury and the Muslims were hard pressed to defend their line.

 

Muhammad was commanding from behind the Muslims, and the following verse of the Quran was then revealed from God to Muhammad,

{

I will help you with a thousand angels in succession, one following behind the other.

}

(Quran: 8,9)

 

Muhammad then said to his friend, Abu Bakr, “. . . I can see the angel Gabriel on his mare in the thick of a sand storm.”

But there was no sand storm that anyone else could see, . . . yet.

 

Then the following verse of the Quran was revealed,

{

Their (the pagan’s) multitude will be put to flight, and they will show their backs.”

}

(Quran: 54:45)

 

Then Muhammad picked up a handful of gravel and threw it in the direction of the pagans and said, “confusion seize their faces!”

Just as he threw the gravel, a violent sandstorm blew into the faces of the enemies.

This was very strange since it was difficult for any strong wind to blow into the valley, and the ground was wet from the rain the night before.

 

As the pagans were blinded by the sand storm, the Muslims immediately regained the upper hand and the pagans were thrown into confusion. They turned around and fled in disorder and panic as the Muslim army gave pursuit.

 

After the battle was over, the following verse was revealed by God to Muhammad,

{

And you (Muhammad) did not throw when you threw, but it was God who threw.

}

(Quran: 8:17)

 

Before the pagans fled, the Muslims were busy fighting and had not heard Muhammad say that he saw Gabriel, nor had the Muslims heard the verse in which God promised the help of angels.

But the Muslims later reported various sightings. Some said that they saw unknown horsemen whose horses’ hoofs did not touch the ground.

Some Muslims did not see the angels directly, but saw the effects of the angels such as one Muslim named Hazuim who reported seeing the head of a fleeing pagan get mysteriously cut off before he could reach him. Hazuim had been giving chase and he heard a swashing of a horse whip and then a detached voice say, “forward Hazuim!”

When he reported the incident to Muhammad, he said to Hazuim, “You have said the truth. This was help from the third heaven.”

Even one of the captured pagan disbelievers named Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib reported, “this man did not capture me. I was captured by a different man who was bald and handsome and who was riding a piebald horse. I do not see him here among the people.” The Muslim holding Abbas captive then interrupted Abbas and proclaimed to Muhammad, “I captured him, O Messenger of Allah.”

Muhammad then said to him, “Be quiet, God the All-Mighty strengthened you with the help of a noble angel.”

Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib had brought 100 gold coins with him, and had left a secret savings with his wife in Mecca.

When the time for ransom came, Abbas said that he had no other wealth than what he had brought, and then Muhammad asked Abbas about the gold that he had left with his wife. Abbas was stunned and asked Muhammad how he knew about that, and Muhammad responded that the angel Gabriel had told him.

 

The above is only one event from the life of Muhammad. There were others. The combination of such incidents along with the miracles of the Quran, the excellence of the personality of Muhammad, and many other things attest that Muhammad was indeed telling the truth when he spoke of having seen the angel Gabriel in the night of the first revelation, as Matt Browne has asked about.



Edited by Beebok - 16 August 2012 at 9:08pm
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