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Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:07pm
The "simplicity that is in Christ", is that the message of Jesus was Love.  Plain and simple, Love... Love God above all else, and love others as you would want to be loved.

for, in that, is the entire Law.  If you learn to fulfill these two commands you will also fulfill the rest.  If you love God, and your fellow humans, you will not kill them, you will not steal from them, you will not covet their goods, you will not lust after another's wife, you will honor your mother and father, you will keep holy the sabbath... etc.
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself". - Galatians

The world is astray because the people have forgotten God... They do not love God above all else... they are lovers of selves, disobedient, and led astray by the temptations of the world.


Edited by Caringheart - 10 August 2012 at 9:41pm
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:36pm
Honest question:  How often do the people on these forums get angry at just the mention of Jesus name?
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 3:11am
Originally posted by Caringheart

The "simplicity that is in Christ", is that the message of Jesus was Love.  Plain and simple, Love... Love God above all else, and love others as you would want to be loved.

for, in that, is the entire Law.  If you learn to fulfill these two commands you will also fulfill the rest.  If you love God, and your fellow humans, you will not kill them, you will not steal from them, you will not covet their goods, you will not lust after another's wife, you will honor your mother and father, you will keep holy the sabbath... etc.
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (Matthew 22)

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself". - Galatians

The world is astray because the people have forgotten God... They do not love God above all else... they are lovers of selves, disobedient, and led astray by the temptations of the world.
 
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’
 
If Jesus (pbuh) is god why did he not say "Love me with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"?
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Abu Loren
 
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Quote Abu Loren Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 3:16am
Originally posted by Caringheart

Honest question:  How often do the people on these forums get angry at just the mention of Jesus name?
 
I'm getting tired of answering questions like this from you. We have all said previously how Muslims revere prophet Isa (pbuh) and it does not just register in your head. No true Muslim gets angry when they hear the blessed name of Isa (pbuh). We have a more thorough understanding of prophet Isa (pbuh) than the Christians or the Jews, still people does not like this.
 
When prophet Isa (pbuh) comes back to defeat the anti-Christ the Christians will say to him "lord, lord haven't we prophecied in your name?"
He will say "get away from me you work of inequity, I never knew you.".
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rememberallah
 
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 9:09am
@caringheart - brother now we are having some discussion.....
1 - yes i know the Quran as well as the bible
2 - you gave a long explanation in defense of the statement in book of jeremiah but refrained from commenting at all on the contradiction between the geneologies of jesus betweem the 2 gospels! we never asked which one is correct between the 2 but asked that have you seen the contradiction? the contradiction proves that the present gospels are not the inspired book of God but a human handy work.
3 - you also didnt comment on jesus saying "my father and your father, my God and your God"......meaning he was not a begotten son, but the one who wrote the contradicting geneology added the word begotten in the gospels.
4 - seeing the above points {and there are many more} we see that Gospels cant be trusted as an inspired book of God.
5 - You didnt comment on my asking you to show me such a contradiction in Quran......infact even after 1400yrs it is in sync with science and this thread was about that....every living thing made from water
6 - Prophet did not create confusion just as Jesus didnt, can we blame Jesus for the betrayal of his disciple?, can we say Jesus caused confusion in his heart? brother you are not sincere at all in your analysis.
7 - no muslim gets angry on the mention of any prophets name, ie we do not get angry on the mention of jesus's name but we in respect always say {pbuh} ie peace be upon him, as we do for all the prophets.
8 - and if you read your posts with sincerity you will realise who is really condescending and who is really trying to have a discussion.
your knowledge of islam is very incomplete......errrrr your knowledge of bible too is very incomplete, so how should we have discussions with you, now you wont admit to the contradiction in the geneologies, how do we have a discussion with you?
9 - the talk of bible came up as you were promoting in Jesus's name what he didnt endorse....ie the christianity of today.....he was a practising jew.
peace be on all the restless souls


7 -
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Beebok
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 10:54am
@CaringHeart,

I see that RememberAllah has already posted a response.

I do not wish for you to have to debate two people at once; but since I had already completed my response before I saw his, I'll post what I have and then wait until your discussion with him is finished for you to return to mine.

Take your time.
I'll post my response in a little while so I don't lose it or forget it, since I've already finished it.
No hurry to get to it.
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 11 August 2012 at 11:20am

CaringHeart:

‘The "simplicity that is in Christ", is that the message of Jesus was Love.  Plain and simple, Love... Love God above all else . . . .’ 

My response:

And yet the Christians who declare to love God above all else, have worshipped their mental image of Jesus as equal to God.

God is not “above all else” for the Christians, because they have associated other gods, besides God.

Jesus commanded them to love God, but instead they loved Jesus.

{

(On the Day of Judgment) God will say, “Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: ‘worship me and my mother as gods besides God?’”

“Glory be to You,” he will answer, “I could never have claimed what I have no right to. . . . I said, ‘Serve God, my Lord and your Lord.” . . . .

}

(Quran: 5,115-116)

 

You say, if you love God, you will obey.

I say, if you do not obey God, you do not really love God. 

And so the Christians disobeyed God by associating other gods with Him, by permitting what God had forbidden, and by forbidding what God had permitted, and by rejecting God’s final prophet, Muhammad.

So the Christians say, love, love, love, but it is similar as the love of the pagan idol worshippers: 

{

Abraham said: ‘You have chosen idols instead of God, but your love of them will last only in this lower life. On the Day of Resurrection, you shall disown one another, and you shall curse one another. The fire shall be your home and none shall help you.

}

(Quran: 29,25) 

Similar is the misplaced love of the idolatrous Christians who worship the idol that is their mental image of Jesus alongside with God.

Their love will last only in this earthly life, and has no place in heaven which is reserved for those who truly show their love of the One real God by obeying the command to accept Muhammad and the Quran. 

----------


CaringHeart:

“As for genealogies I have no aptitude for genealogies.  I leave that work to others, but I will not take one word over the other on the matter.  Who is to say which is correct?   “

My response:

It doesn’t matter which one is correct.  The point is that they contradict, which shows the New Testament’s unreliability. 

I’m surprised that you didn’t give the typical Christian response, which is that one is a maternal genealogy and the other paternal; which wouldn’t make sense anyways because of the context. Many of the names match, and they say, son of, son of, etc. 

---------

CaringHeart:


I see him (Muhammad) as self serving, “

 My response:

The Quaryish offered him leadership and vast wealth to end his message.

He responded that even if the sun and moon were given to him, he would not end his message.

He had the opportunity for wealth and power, and he turned it down and suffered assassination attempts (at least 3 I can think of off the top of my head), ridicule, insults, physical abuse, starvation, and all sorts of persecution and hardship. He gave away most of his wealth and lived in humble conditions even when the Muslims were victorious.

If you see him as self serving despite the reality, then perhaps it is a devil that has deceived you. 

---------- 

CaringHeart:

“I can not say for certain that Muhammad is entirely false either, though I fear that he is.  I can only say that I, personally, do not find him believable as prophet of God.  “

My response: 

He stood on top of the wall around the city, and asked the people, if I told you that there was an approaching army, would you believe me?

That was incredibly unlikely considering Mecca’s location and history.

The people unanimously responded, “yes” because his reputation for honesty.

Even enemies of his tribe would sometimes leave their possessions with him because of his trustworthiness. He was referred to as the “Amin,” the trustworthy. 

So what do you base your incredulity of this most excellent of humans? On the twisted and contorted propaganda of the Orientalists? 

When Muhammad arrived at Medina, one of the top Rabbi of the Jews, if not the top Rabbi, named Abdullah ibn Salam, went to question Muhammad. After Muhammad answered, Abdullah ibn Salam converted to Islam. He said, “When the Prophet arrived in Madinah, I went to see him and I immediately recognized through his countenance that he would never be a liar.”

(narrated by Tirmizi, ibn Majah, and Darimi) 

---------------

CaringHeart: 

He left too much confusion behind even among his own closest followers when he left this world.  It seems that without him all others became lost with no clear understandable teaching to follow.  Everyone seemed to have a different idea about what was taught.

 

My response:

I’ve already responded to this in a previous post with the following:

The confusion among Muslims is microscopic compared to the confusion among the early Christians, the Gnostics, the Arian heresy, Athunasius, and so many others.

Muslims may have disagreed on politics or minor ritual, but Christians couldn’t even agree on the oneness of God. Even among the trinitarians, there were many interpretations of what the trinity was, and is. Will you blame that on Jesus?

When Moses left for a few days, the Jews made a gold idol. Will you blame that on Moses?

The disagreement among Muslims was miniscule compared to the confusion left by prophets before him.

It seems that CaringHeart doesn’t care to read my responses.  I’ll add this. Muslims agree on the basics and fundamentals. We agree on the unity of God. The Christians can’t even agree on that most basic of points as I’ve demonstrated above. The Muslims only disagree on minor points of some of the rituals, leadership after Muhammad, and application of some laws. Your point is mute.

--------------

CaringHeart:

“I find Jesus and Paul believable because there were outside witnesses in both cases.  Those with no investiture in supporting false stories.” 

My response:

Paul was an oppressor. He was out murdering the followers of Jesus until he claimed to have had a vision. His background eliminates his reliability. 

Obviously Jesus is reliable. The Quran confirms his authenticity.

But the synoptic gospels of the New Testament were probably not recorded by the people to whom they are attributed.

Even the book of John states,

“Now this was John’s testimony when the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem.” (1,19)

So, someone else is writing about John.

Also, the rigor the Muslims used in authenticating hadith of Muhammad were not used in authenticating hadith of Jesus.

As RememberAllah pointed out, they contradict, such as the genealogies in Mathew and Luke. 

----- 

CaringHeart:

The scripture that you quoted is an improper translation of Jeremiah 8:8
Here is the proper translation of Jeremiah 8:8 from KJV

 My response:

You’re putting the King James Version as higher than the New International Version?

You’re putting the stylized 16xx and 17xx translations as higher. Very strange.

Here it is from the Complete Jewish Bible translation, 

“‘How can you say, “We are wise;
Adonai’s Torah is with us,”
when in fact the lying pen of the scribes
has turned it into falsehood? 

The Geneva Bible notation does not fit the context of the King James translation, even if you do use the word “vain.”

The Jews first said that they were wise because they possessed the Torah.

Jeremiah does not then criticize their understanding, their reading, their possession, or their comprehension as he would have if he were criticizing their learning or wisdom. He also did not criticize their possession of it as being in “vain,” as you choose. Rather, he criticizes the pens of the scribes, meaning he is criticizing the very writings, that is, the very thing which they call the Torah. 

The Lexham English version states,

the lying stylus of the scribes has made it a lie.” 

A stylus is a pointed writing instrument.

The footnote for the Lexham English version states,

Jeremiah 8:8 Literally “stylus of lie of scribes” 

So, it is “pen of lie of copiers.”

The direct word for word translation, according to Lexham, is, “stylus of lie of scribes.”

And note what the Quran states about things that might apply here also,

{

And there are some among them (Jews and Christians) who twist their tongues when quoting the scriptures, so that you may think it is from the scriptures, whereas it is not from the scriptures.

They say, “this is from God,” whereas it is not from God. Thus they knowingly ascribe falsehood to God.

}

(Quran: 3,78) 

---------

CaringHeart: 

“I have also put in a question to the Rabbi's to clarify the meaning of Jeremiah 8:8 from the Hebrew scripture.”

 My response:

And you’re going to trust him after you’ve already stated that you understand your own scriptures to mean that the Jews have rejected the meaning of the scriptures. Yet you will ask him.

Then, maybe you don’t understand your scriptures as you claim you understand them.

 

 



Edited by Beebok - 11 August 2012 at 11:34am
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2012 at 4:14am
Sorry, Beebok, a debate is not possible. My reply got deleted.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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