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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 08 August 2012 at 8:36pm
@Beebok

"Their own scriptures admit to corruption (book of Jeremiah)"

Can you elaborate please, so that I may go and read?

Thanks,
Caringheart
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 5:24am

 

“The Qur'an is incomplete because it says it relies on a scripture “

 

The Quran is complete by itself. It does not rely on any other scripture. It makes references to previous scripture, but it does not need them. The Quran provides everything you need by itself.

 

 

“Muhammad traveled extensively from a young impressionable age and in those days the Psalms were widely chanted in public places.  Children are quick to learn songs.”

 

I grew up in a Christian evangelical society. I didn’t just travel there, I grew up there (here). I watched their shows on television, etc. The children I played with were all Christians. I didn’t learn anything about Christian scripture or doctrine until I started reading about it.

Travelling as a child, he probably didn't understand the language of the foreign lands. He also probably had little chance to interact with others since he was in the protection of the caravan.

Yes, Muhammad was perfectly knowledgeable on Jewish and Christian scripture. He could tell the Jews and Christian what was in their scripture better than themselves when they debated him.

But it was not from hearing or study. It was knowledge from God.

 

 

“as long as you notice that it says most of them... not all.”

 

The Quran describes the “not all” as those who have not yet heard the revelations given to Muhammad and who do not associate others with God (like the association of the trinity).

 

 

“I am certain there are evil-doers among the Muslims as well.”

 

The Quran describes them as the hypocrites (munafiq) who pretend to be Muslim, but are secretly aligned and friends with the enemies of the Muslims.

 

 

“I can find fault in Muhammad and his teaching and life.”

 

Fault based on what? Based on the satanic modern secular Western ethics? Or based on corrupted previous scriptures?

There is no fault in his life. He obeyed the real laws and ethics that God revealed to humanity.

All the prophets, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, etc, were equally righteous.

 

 

“he left much confusion by his words, or those attributed to him”

 

The confusion among Muslims is microscopic compared to the confusion among the early Christians, the Gnostics, the Arian heresy, Athunasius, and so many others.

Muslims may have disagreed on politics or minor ritual, but Christians couldn’t even agree on the oneness of God. Even among the trinitarians, there were many interpretations of what the trinity was, and is. Will you blame that on Jesus?

When Moses left for a few days, the Jews made a gold idol. Will you blame that on Moses?

The disagreement among Muslims was miniscule compared to the confusion left by prophets before him.

 

 

“Who is the author of confusion?”

 

Well, in the case of Christianity, the main culprit is Paul, the same one to whom the quote above is attributed.

I haven’t seen an ideology as confusing as the trinity, or things like Jesus was both begotten and eternal. So, since God is not the author of confusion, by your own premise, then God is certainly not the author of Christianity.

 

Anyways, it should say, “God is not the initiator of confusion.”

God deceived the Jews who thought they had crucified Jesus because the Jews had first deceived themselves by rejecting Jesus and convincing themselves that Jesus was a false messiah.

By having knowledge of the Quran, I am able to see what the Bible originally meant before it was tampered with.

God does is not an initiator of confusion, but God does cause further confusion as a punishment upon those who have first confused themselves by committing the sin of rejecting His message.

Christians first confused themselves by worshipping an image of Jesus which is not the real Jesus. Now, Christians have rejected the prophethood of Muhammad, and are immersed in the some of most debauched, lewd, Satanic, libertine, Sodomistic, opulent, and lascivious cultures in the history of the world. Thus does God send the evil doers even further astray.

 

 

“Who came and changed the word of God?  Who came preaching a different Gospel than the one that was taught?”

 

That’s the Jews and Christians.

We Muslims have kept the Quran just as it was revealed.

 

 

the simplicity that is in Christ.”

 

And yet Christians, is he God, or the son of God, or both, or neither, or an image of God, or just a human temple where God resides, and on an on an on and on. Funny that Paul should preach simplicity while causing so much confusion.

Islam has an its appeal in its simple message: One God, Muhammad the messenger.

 

 

For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus”

 

Which is just what Christians do. They preach a false Jesus which they claim is God.

But even in that, the Christians are divided.

Islam preaches the original and true Jesus, a messenger of God.



Edited by Beebok - 09 August 2012 at 6:36am
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Quote Beebok Replybullet Posted: 09 August 2012 at 8:41pm
I had said, "Their own scriptures admit to corruption (book of Jeremiah)."

CaringHeart then said, "Can you elaborate please, so that I may go and read?"

It follows here:

“‘How can you say, “We are wise,
    for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
    has handled it falsely?

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%208&version=NIV

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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 7:11am
Originally posted by Caringheart

@Beebok

"Their own scriptures admit to corruption (book of Jeremiah)"

Can you elaborate please, so that I may go and read?

Thanks,
Caringheart


@caringheart - had you read the book of jeremiah you would had known....
it comes in book of jeremiah - "the false pen of the false scribe certainly works falsehood"
go read book of heremiah and find it there.
prophet jeremiah is pointing out that the false scribes have written/added falsehood in the scriptures.

Jeremiah is counted as one of the most orignally preserved books in the bible.....bible researches done in west itself point out on the basis of analysis of language/words/sentence structuring that many of the booka have some parts of it written at a lmuch later time.

Also have you ever counted the generations in the geneology of jesus in new testament {mark and mathew}?? why dont you tell us sincerely that such a contradiction that is there in newtestament gospels in geneology of jesus is not there in Quran??
did God tell 2 geneologies that contradict each other?

leave the contradictions....God never became man, man can never be God, God creates but doesnt procreate...leave the roman religion where Gods used to wed and have sons.....and Jesus himself said as comes in the godpel "my father and your father, my God and your God"
Do not be lost my brother, when the day of judgement comes, surely truth shall stand clear from error.
may God guide you.


The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 2:50pm
@rememberallah

Condescending attitudes do nothing to promote peace and understanding.  I have read Jeremiah, but thanks for the information.
Jeremiah 8 - I will go and read it again today.

As for genealogies I have no aptitude for genealogies.  I leave that work to others, but I will not take one word over the other on the matter.  Who is to say which is correct?  I do not believe there is any man who can say.  We have what we have, and we must make of it, what we make of it.  Can you answer every question asked of the Qur'an?  And before you give a knee jerk response in defense of your religion I ask that you take the time to give serious and honest consideration to the question.  It is a personal question I ask of everyone whatever their religion not requiring anything more than an inner reflection.  How well do you know the Qur'an?  Or do you just think you know it?

[note:  a difference between us(some, not all) is when asked a question about the Bible I don't attack the Qur'an in response.  I try to answer the question about the Bible... for my own self... for my own clarity... for my own edification.]

Who is to say there is full truth in any of the stories?  They were recorded by fallible man.
I find Jesus and Paul believable because there were outside witnesses in both cases.  Those with no investiture in supporting false stories.
I can not say for certain that Muhammad is entirely false either, though I fear that he is.  I can only say that I, personally, do not find him believable as prophet of God.  I see him as self serving, even though he also served a greater purpose.  He left too much confusion behind even among his own closest followers when he left this world.  It seems that without him all others became lost with no clear understandable teaching to follow.  Everyone seemed to have a different idea about what was taught.

Salaam,
Caringheart
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 8:45pm
I have taken the time today to read Jeremiah 8 and found, at just the line which you quoted, I had made a notation in my NIV version of the Bible that it is not an accurate translation.  Therefore, I went then to the original source... the KJV, and from there to the Geneva Bible.

The scripture that you quoted is an improper translation of Jeremiah 8:8

Here is the proper translation of Jeremiah 8:8 from KJV
8 How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.
to do something in vain means you have done it but it has served no purpose.  (It does not mean to lie or falsify)

I will tell you what this passage means to me.

the pen of the scribes is in vain
when the people,
even though they have been given the law
they do not follow the law
when they reject it

read the passage Jeremiah 8:9 which follows the one you quoted.
9 The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the Lord; and what wisdom is in them?
The notations in the Geneva Bible for the passage of Jeremiah 8:8 are:
The Law doth not profit you, neither need it to have been written for ought that you have learned by it.
translation:
The Law does not help you, and may as well not to have been written, for all the good it has done... you have learned nothing by it.

This was the message being given by Jeremiah.  The Jews, though they had the Law, still did not follow the Law.

There are many who do not understand their own scriptures because they have not taken the time to read them, to study them, to question them, and to make comparisons.

I have also put in a question to the Rabbi's to clarify the meaning of Jeremiah 8:8 from the Hebrew scripture.

Salaam

and may knowledge and enlightenment come to all.



Edited by Caringheart - 10 August 2012 at 8:50pm
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 8:57pm
@Beebok

"The Quran describes the “not all” as those who have not yet heard the revelations given to Muhammad"

Can you please tell me where in the Qur'an so I may go look it up?

Thanks.
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Caringheart
 
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Quote Caringheart Replybullet Posted: 10 August 2012 at 9:00pm
"The Quran describes them[evil-doers] as the hypocrites (munafiq) who pretend to be Muslim, but are secretly aligned and friends with the enemies of the Muslims."

I wonder how many Muslims who have committed sins would say they are just pretending to be Muslims, or that they are secretly aligned with enemies of Muslims.  Is it just possible that they are just human and fallible?
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