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rememberallah
 
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2010 at 8:42am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

My house is made of wood.  The frame, the flooring, the beams of the roof, all are made of wood.  It does have a brick fireplace, but surely no one would consider it to be a true statement if I claimed to live in a house made of bricks.  Even if I pointed out that the the fireplace is essential in heating the house, or that the whole architectural or aesthetic design of the house was centred around the brick fireplace, still it would be wrong to describe it as a brick house.

it might not be a brick house but it is made up of bricks too.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I do get your point, and your point is simply wrong.  The analogy is backwards.  It is the woman who provides the seed, not the man.  The man simply fertilizes it, much as a plant seed is fertilized to begin its development.

no you missed it, this way or that way there is no replacement of sperm.

 

Originally posted by REMEMBERALLAH

Thats what we are trying to show you that it has not diverged from scientific facts, you say other civilisations believed that things were created from water, we say they also believed in wrong things, like even till 19 th century even scientists believed that ether is contained in every body {right, i want your comment on this}, which later researches proved doesnt even exist.......why hasnt such a thing happened to Kuran,

why didnt you comment on my above point? is there something you dont want to see.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

But it has, many times.  This (the process of human reproduction) is just one example, but there are many others.  The whole Quranic depiction of cosmology is equally nonsensical (e.g., references in the Quran to the sky as a "roof" or "canopy", stars falling from the sky, a flat earth "spread out like a carpet" with the sun and moon revolving around it).

sorry your research on Quranic cosmology is anything but good. what are you talking of Quran even science describes atmosphere as a protective roof.!!!! infact leave Quran first research science/cosmology and what is science's stand then come to Quran.

where does Quran talk of stars falling tell me??? it will show how good a research you have of Quran. the earth is circular but for us it is flat......thats the point. moreover Quran points at earth being circular.

if you take Quranic verses on sun moon etc and analyse it carefully enough you will realise the stand of Quran is that earth is not at centre, it doesnt say what is at centre but the sentence building shows it says earth is not at centre.  update yourself and come up with some proper research my brother.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

The reason you don't see these as contradictions is that every time science disproves something in the Quran (or the Bible, or any other religious text) the believers simply abandon the literal interpretation and retreat into metaphor or abstraction.  If science had found that the human body was made of aluminum silicate, you would have been trumpeting the Quran's reference to "clay" as a proof of Quranic science.  Instead, the clay is metaphorical, or just a vague or poetic reference to elemental "earth", while water (dihydrogen oxide) is literal and precise.  Believers always celebrate any minor confirmations of their beliefs, and completely ignore or explain away any disconfirming evidence.

where have i gone into metaphor leaving literal interpretation please point out, please do. it might be said for other people whose research was weak but not to me or show me without misquoting me like all athiests do when they dont have anyother way out.

you are saying had science found out about aluminium we would be saying so n so......this is what athiest do,,,,,,,brother this is what happens when one speaks without proper research...science tells we have calcium, phosphorous, magnesium, sodium, pottasium, chlorine, sulphur, iron, copper, magnese, iodine, zinc, selenium, cobolt, fluorine, molybdenum, chromium, lead, nickel, silicon, vanadium etc,......tell me which metal have we been shouting Quran claims that we are made of tell me which have we been shouting???? this shows what kinda attitude you have and how you have been forming your beliefs, i too was athiest type but was true to myself and my opponents. its sad to see how you form opinions, you will never be able to see the truth this way.

i have already commented on water and soil issue in my previous posts, perhaps you need to go through them regarding Quran's stand.


Originally posted by Ron Webb


But you do, don't you?  Aren't you just as skeptical about Hinduism and Mormonism and Zoroastrianism all the the other religions?  How else can we know the truth, if not by questioning?.

no i am not about other religions, i have researched well about other religions and my stand for them is anything but skeptical.....i know a lot of ignorant religous people are.

my brother questioning is different and unreasonable questioning is different, this particularly refers to your comment on questioning in last to last post.

keep questioning it is good, but be reasonable and true to your nature. Quran says "one who purifies it {nature} is sure to triumph, one who corrupts it is sure to fail"



Edited by rememberallah - 26 December 2010 at 8:46am
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2010 at 9:06am

Originally posted by islamispeace

As I said before, dust does not refer to the stuff you find in your home.  It refers to "earth".  What does "earth" contain?  It contains, among other things, the elements (such as carbon) necessary for life to exist.  So in that sense, Adam was created from "dust" or "earth" and so were we.

If by "earth" you mean one of the four ancient elements, then I agree; but if that is the case, then obviously the words "dust" and "clay" represents a whole category of substances having earth-like characteristics.  They don't literally mean dust and clay.  So why would anyone assume that "water" literally meant H2O?


And what's your point?  I already acknowledged that ancient people believed that water was a component of the body, but there is no indication that they believed that mankind was created from water.  For God's sake, they also believed that fire was one of the components!  Was this literal fire?  According to the link you provided, "fire lights up the Sun, Moon, and stars in the celestial firmament.  Fire has brilliance and spirit, and symbolizes the Life Force within us."  Did they believe that man was created from fire as well?  And if so, why didn't the Quran, which you believe is wrong on the matter, not repeat this error?

The four ancient elements of earth, water, air and fire represent the four physical states of matter -- solid, liquid, gas, and energy (which we now know is a form of matter, and it's interesting that the Greeks beat us to this by a couple of thousand years!).  The body contains energy, so it would not have been wrong to list it as a component.

But I'm not saying that the Quran is wrong in mentioning (elemental) water.  I'm just saying that it's not much of a scientific revelation, or a confirmation of the authenticity of the Quran, as the opening post suggests.  They knew that liquids were (apparently) involved in conception, were a major component of the body and were essential to life in general.

On the other hand, if the argument is that the Quran is literally referring to H2O and making a scientific statement describing the chemical constituents of the human body, then you need to explain why that reference is literal but similar references to dust and clay are not.
 

Originally posted by Ron

But you just agreed with my statement that "Any description of reproduction that claims we are formed from sperm, without even mentioning the ovum, is just plain wrong."

When did I say that?

Well, I said "Any description of reproduction that claims we are formed from sperm, without even mentioning the ovum, is just plain wrong;" and you responded, "Sure it is."  Does that not indicate agreement?


You still have not demonstrated that the Arabs and other societies had a word for "ovum" as it is understood in embryology.  Therefore, your insistence that they should have been able to mention it is simply absurd.  They already knew that male and female components were involved.  But, they did not know what the female component was (since it had not yet been discovered) and hence, no word existed which could properly identify it.  As such, there was no reason for Allah to mention something that the Arabic language did not have a word for.  To say otherwise is just as absurd as saying that the Quran should have mentioned computers.

God does not run out of words, as I'm sure you know.  If He had intended to reveal a scientific truth about the creation of human life He could certainly have done so using the words available.  It's certainly no excuse to leave out the most important part.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2010 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Ron

If by "earth" you mean one of the four ancient elements, then I agree; but if that is the case, then obviously the words "dust" and "clay" represents a whole category of substances having earth-like characteristics.  They don't literally mean dust and clay.  So why would anyone assume that "water" literally meant H2O?


Words like "dust" and "clay" can be interpreted differently, as they were by the early Muslims.  "Water" was actually not interpreted by them literally as the water they drank, but what I am saying is that in the light of modern science, it would not be incorrect to interpret it literally as H2O. 

Originally posted by Ron

But I'm not saying that the Quran is wrong in mentioning (elemental) water.  I'm just saying that it's not much of a scientific revelation, or a confirmation of the authenticity of the Quran, as the opening post suggests.  They knew that liquids were (apparently) involved in conception, were a major component of the body and were essential to life in general.
 

But again, they never said that man was created from water or that all life came from water. 

Originally posted by Ron

Well, I said "Any description of reproduction that claims we are formed from sperm, without even mentioning the ovum, is just plain wrong;" and you responded, "Sure it is."  Does that not indicate agreement?


I apologize for the confusion.  When I said "Sure it is..." it was in response to your claim "This is not a matter of different connotations of a word."  Sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by Ron

God does not run out of words, as I'm sure you know.  If He had intended to reveal a scientific truth about the creation of human life He could certainly have done so using the words available.  It's certainly no excuse to leave out the most important part.


My point is that it was not a matter of the utmost importance.  And it would not have been a major revelation anyway, as all societies knew that male and female components were involved in procreation.         
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 26 December 2010 at 10:02pm

Originally posted by rememberallah


Originally posted by REMEMBERALLAH

Thats what we are trying to show you that it has not diverged from scientific facts, you say other civilisations believed that things were created from water, we say they also believed in wrong things, like even till 19 th century even scientists believed that ether is contained in every body {right, i want your comment on this}, which later researches proved doesnt even exist.......why hasnt such a thing happened to Kuran,

why didnt you comment on my above point? is there something you dont want to see.

But I just commented on it in my last post, and you even quoted my comment.  What are you talking about? 


sorry your research on Quranic cosmology is anything but good. what are you talking of Quran even science describes atmosphere as a protective roof.!!!!

Nonsense.  Show me the evidence.

where does Quran talk of stars falling tell me??? it will show how good a research you have of Quran.

the earth is circular but for us it is flat......thats the point.

So for you, the earth is flat?  I think that says it all.

moreover Quran points at earth being circular.

If it did it would contradict itself, but it doesn't.  Again, show me the evidence.


if you take Quranic verses on sun moon etc and analyse it carefully enough you will realise the stand of Quran is that earth is not at centre, it doesnt say what is at centre but the sentence building shows it says earth is not at centre.  update yourself and come up with some proper research my brother.

It's your claim.  Prove it (i.e. show me the evidence) if you can.  I'm not going to do your research for you.

where have i gone into metaphor leaving literal interpretation please point out, please do.

Not you.  The Quran -- in many, many places, but in particular when describing humankind as being made from clay and/or dust.


science tells we have calcium, phosphorous, magnesium, sodium, pottasium, chlorine, sulphur, iron, copper, magnese, iodine, zinc, selenium, cobolt, fluorine, molybdenum, chromium, lead, nickel, silicon, vanadium etc,......tell me which metal have we been shouting Quran claims that we are made of tell me which have we been shouting????

Clay is aluminum silicate.  It is not part of the human body.

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Quote Gibbs Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2010 at 9:39am
Well the Bible said dust, doesn't clay have the same (or similar)  properties as dirt?
 
"The earth is circular?"
 
I thought the earth was spherical?


Edited by Gibbs - 27 December 2010 at 9:40am
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Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 27 December 2010 at 11:23am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by rememberallah


Originally posted by REMEMBERALLAH

Thats what we are trying to show you that it has not diverged from scientific facts, you say other civilisations believed that things were created from water, we say they also believed in wrong things, like even till 19 th century even scientists believed that ether is contained in every body {right, i want your comment on this}, which later researches proved doesnt even exist.......why hasnt such a thing happened to Kuran,

why didnt you comment on my above point? is there something you dont want to see.

But I just commented on it in my last post, and you even quoted my comment.  What are you talking about? 

no you commented nothing about ether, and i know well why you have not been commenting about it.

Originally posted by Ron Webb


Nonsense.  Show me the evidence.


http://www.blurtit.com/q9458411.html        you will say who is he? the point is he is correct. scientists describe atmosphere as blanket {keeping us warm} to shield {protects us from meteors} to a screen {protecting us from harmful rays}.......brother you seem to be more for Qutran bashing rather than true research, as your researches on topics you are discussing is very weak.

where does Quran talk of stars falling tell me??? it will show how good a research you have of Quran.

81:2
you say 81:2......i knew it, this is how good your Quranic research is......have you even cared to read verses around it??? it is talking of how God will end this universe, why didnt you say "mountains dont vanish" as next verse says that......i know whats in your heart....you are anything but close to your nature......brother be true to yourself if not to us and the world.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So for you, the earth is flat?  I think that says it all.

yes for me the earth is flat as i can not walk on circular thing, earth for itself is circular/spherical/ostrich egg shaped, but it is mercy of God that for the context of my feet it is flat.............a few airport construction engineers were talking that they have a very flat piece of land to construct airstrip....go argue with them that you are fools....you know how they will react to you.....i react to you the same way.........go and argue with the wolrds greatest engineers those who every year break land speed records at bonville flats that you people are fools unscientific, this land is not flat......the way they will brush you off, satan asks me to brush you off but my brother i will yet try to make you see your nature for our creator wants you to be on your nature. be true to yourself my brother be true to yourself if not to us. what to say my brother you are very dissapointing, you want to discuss such big issues but you dont even have the concept of context/relativity clear!!!!! thats why i from almost an athiest became an ardent believer ...i was true to myself.

refrain from making such comments, for God said "their claims will be put on record and they will be questioned about it" {23:19]

moreover Quran points at earth being circular.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

If it did it would contradict itself, but it doesn't.  Again, show me the evidence.

i have shown you how it doesnt contradict itself above, if you look at 21:33 - "it is he who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all swim along in its rounded course"

how can the night and day swim along around the earth in a rounded course if the earth is not round??? if earth was flat the night and day will have a flat course and not rounded course.

i am no more in the discussion with you because i can see that had you realised it you would not had counted it as miracle of Quran but said even earlier people knew it.....this way or that way you are just there to pump your false notions, i am in discussion with you as other people cant see through you like i can, so that they may see the truth. Inshallah they will see the truth.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

It's your claim.  Prove it (i.e. show me the evidence) if you can.  I'm not going to do your research for you.

i have done my research my brother, i dont want you to do my research i want you to do yours....anyways i will do it for you.......

fine for the sake of the argument lets believe for a moment that Quran talks of earth being at centre, Quran says {36:40} - "sun can not catch the moon" Now knowing Quran talks of orbits, just atleast draw a diagtam {which i cant here for otherwise i swear i would had for you} a diagram of solar system in which sun can not catch the moon, and yet you have to consider that solar eclipse do happen. ...ypu can not.....you can not have in any way have a solar system diagram of earth at centre, with moon and sun going around earth, and yet sun can not catch the moon but solar eclipse happen. Quran is pointing at earth not being at centre of orbits.


Originally posted by Ron Webb

The Quran -- in many, many places, but in particular when describing humankind as being made from clay and/or dust.

it is not a metaphor.....i have cleared this point before, please go through my earlier posts.


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Clay is aluminum silicate.  It is not part of the human body.



Aluminium Silicate
is light weight and superwhite in colour. please go and ask a potter what color is clay of, Depending on the content of the soil, clay can appear in various colors, from a dull gray to a deep orange-red, what color is a tennis clay court??? . brother what to say of your research.........you yourself are saying "aluminiumSILICATE", go through my previous post and read we humans have silicon....wait......,do  you even know what silicate means???......or you don't??.....i doubt.........infact i am sure you dont or you wouldnt had said this......your research is so so so weak, you are not even fit for a proper discussion and you are talking as if you know what you are saying.....you dont even know what you are saying my brother...... also an average human body contains 35mg to 50 mg of aluminium in lungs, soft tissues and bones...... i know what all things you will say, so i preemptively answer them,,,, aluminium in its natural form is not harmful to humans, moreover silica does not let body absorb aluminium and makes it through kidneys expel the nonpermissible amount.................huff......now even if we agree clay is almunium silicate, it also has other elements, right.....you will agree......but when it comes to Quran you just hold some sentences and are not willing to leave them......if i hold this statement of yours that clay is almunium silicate like you hold verses of Quran, you will be most unscientific person. but unlike you i will be realistic,,,,,,i will be true to myself, my nature....i am aware of my own self, the nature on which God has made us.   my only effortg is to make you see your nature, for then you will indeed be successful.
never let ego come between truth.
may peace be on you.
brother do charity so that God may have mercy on you.


Edited by rememberallah - 27 December 2010 at 12:21pm
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 28 December 2010 at 7:31am
Webb and Gibbs, give it up.  This guy is not going to be deterred from his pseudoscientific preaching.  You could be making perfect sense and he'll still invent new "research".  A better course might be to point out the logical fallacies in his arguments. 
 
Nah, never mind.  This is a religious argument.  Where logical discussion ends, religion begins.
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 29 December 2010 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by rememberallah

no you commented nothing about ether, and i know well why you have not been commenting about it.

I didn't comment on ether because I don't see how it is relevant.  What is it you want me to say?  Ether was a hypothesis that some scientists proposed to explain how light waves could propagate in a vacuum.  It was never more than a hypothesis, with no experimental evidence to support it, and it was eventually proven to be false.  What does that have to do with all living things being made of water?



http://www.blurtit.com/q9458411.html        you will say who is he? the point is he is correct. scientists describe atmosphere as blanket {keeping us warm} to shield {protects us from meteors} to a screen {protecting us from harmful rays}.......brother you seem to be more for Qutran bashing rather than true research, as your researches on topics you are discussing is very weak.

No, the point is he is not a scientist, nor does he use the word "roof" or anything similar.

you say 81:2......i knew it, this is how good your Quranic research is......have you even cared to read verses around it??? it is talking of how God will end this universe, why didnt you say "mountains dont vanish" as next verse says that......i know whats in your heart....you are anything but close to your nature......brother be true to yourself if not to us and the world.

I didn't say "mountains don't vanish" because that would not relate to cosmology, which is the category of errors I was discussing.  I mentioned the stars falling because meteors were commonly thought to be "falling stars", and the Quran clearly repeats that error.  We now know that stars are thousands or millions of times bigger than the earth, which makes it absurd to speak of them falling onto the earth (if anything it would be the other way around), even supposing they weren't thousands of light-years away to begin with.

yes for me the earth is flat as i can not walk on circular thing, earth for itself is circular/spherical/ostrich egg shaped, but it is mercy of God that for the context of my feet it is flat.............a few airport construction engineers were talking that they have a very flat piece of land to construct airstrip....go argue with them that you are fools....you know how they will react to you.....i react to you the same way.........go and argue with the wolrds greatest engineers those who every year break land speed records at bonville flats that you people are fools unscientific, this land is not flat......

An airstrip can be flat.  The Bonneville Salt Flats are (approximately) flat, although it is described as "an area so flat that from certain perspectives the curvature of the earth can actually be seen." (http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/the_land/bonnevillesaltflats.html) But the earth itself is not flat.  (I can't believe I even have to explain this!)

how can the night and day swim along around the earth in a rounded course if the earth is not round??? if earth was flat the night and day will have a flat course and not rounded course.

Just because the earth is flat, doesn't mean that the dome of the sky cannot be curved:

fine for the sake of the argument lets believe for a moment that Quran talks of earth being at centre, Quran says {36:40} - "sun can not catch the moon" Now knowing Quran talks of orbits, just atleast draw a diagtam {which i cant here for otherwise i swear i would had for you} a diagram of solar system in which sun can not catch the moon, and yet you have to consider that solar eclipse do happen. ...ypu can not.....you can not have in any way have a solar system diagram of earth at centre, with moon and sun going around earth, and yet sun can not catch the moon but solar eclipse happen. Quran is pointing at earth not being at centre of orbits.

All that is required is for the sun's orbit to be higher than the moon's.

Aluminium Silicate is light weight and superwhite in colour. please go and ask a potter what color is clay of, Depending on the content of the soil, clay can appear in various colors, from a dull gray to a deep orange-red, what color is a tennis clay court??? . brother what to say of your research.........you yourself are saying "aluminiumSILICATE", go through my previous post and read we humans have silicon....wait......,do  you even know what silicate means???...

Clay is aluminum silicate, Al2(SiO3)3.  You won't find that compound anywhere in the human body.  Yes, you will find traces of silicon, but that's not the same thing at all.  Hopefully you will not find aluminum because it has no physiological function and can be toxic.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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