IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Every living thing made from water.

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islamispeace
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Posted: 18 December 2010 at 3:10pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by rememberallah

Quran {21:30}-"and we created every living thing out of water"
Quran {24:45}-"and the God has created every animal from water"
Quran {25:54}-"it is he who has created man from water"

And yet in {30:20}, among other passages, the Quran says "He creates you out of dust".

So is it dust, or is it water?

Hi Ron. The Quran does not say that humans were created "only" from water or "only" from dust. The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 18 December 2010 at 8:38pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things.

And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?" "A clear indication in favor of the Quran’s claim that it is a revelation from God?" LOL

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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islamispeace
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Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:11pm

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things.

And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?" "A clear indication in favor of the Quran’s claim that it is a revelation from God?" LOL

Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation. Whether you believe in creation or evolution, you would have to admit that water and earth (which contains the elements necessary for life) play a role in the development of man. Some cultures, like the ancient Greeks, seemed to believe that man was created simply by being molded from mud or earth and that was it. If you can demonstrate that humanity being created from water and other things, as the Quran says, was claimed by cultures before the coming of Islam, then you would have proven that this being mentioned in the Quran is not a scientific miracle. It would not be a miracle if it was already known. In that case, it would just be a repeat of what was known for spiritual reasons, to remind mankind of its origins.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:40pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation.

I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??

By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important. It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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rememberallah

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Posted: 19 December 2010 at 8:07am

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??

peace be on you

the point is not what all things are mentioned, the point is the wrong things are not mentioned, eg. science believed till 19th century that ether is contained in every living and nonliving body, which gives heat. only later to discover that there is no such thing as ether.

now you are trying to force contradictions, you know what you are doing................if a man says newyork and washington dc are close by, you are commenting that his knowledge is spotty as he doesnt mention america.

my brother who shares this earth with me, take out time to know yourself, your nature, or you will always be working out unfair arguments.

May God help all to realise their nature.

The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.

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islamispeace
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Posted: 19 December 2010 at 11:36am

I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??

There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation. I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water. Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make.

Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother. "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles. Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing. Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay. This goes back to my original post. Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors.

Just because it does not mention the ovum does not mean the author of the Quran did not know that both male and female factors are involved. I think it is safe to say that people in those times did know that in order to have a baby, a man needed to have sexual intercourse with a woman. Right? It was also understood that sperm was the "seed". Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum". There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop". As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum. You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Ron Webb
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Posted: 19 December 2010 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation. I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water. Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make.

In ancient times, water was considered one of the four elements (along with air, fire and earth). Anything liquid was considered a form of water: blood, urine, sweat, lymph. So yeah, anyone who ever jabbed a spear into an enemy soldier would know quite well that water is a major constituent.

Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother. "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles. Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing. Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay. This goes back to my original post. Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors.

So the reference to water is to be taken literally, but the dust and the clay are not? How do you know that? Is there some clue in the text that tells you when Allah is being literal and when He is merely being poetic or metaphorical? Or do you simply choose the interpretation that best suits your purpose?

It was (and apparently still is) commonly misunderstood. The proper analogy in the plant kingdom for sperm would be "pollen", not "seed". The seed corresponds more closely to the female ovum -- but the ancients didn't even know such a thing existed, which is why they got it wrong.

Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum". There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop". As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum. You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists.

The common word for "ovum" is "egg", and I'm quite sure there was such an Arabic word at the time.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.

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schmikbob
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Posted: 19 December 2010 at 5:54pm

Excellent critique Ron. I think you will find this is a common element in most of the "Quran does science" crowd's arguments. They choose a word or two and interpret it in a very specific way to stuff it into a modern scientific definition and another couple of words will be defined as a metaphoric phrase and, of course, is not to be taken literally.

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Author	Message
islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 18 December 2010 at 3:10pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by rememberallah* Quran {21:30}-"and we created every living thing out of water" Quran {24:45}-"and the God has created every animal from water" Quran {25:54}-"it is he who has created man from water" And yet in {30:20}, among other passages, the Quran says "He creates you out of dust". So is it dust, or is it water? Hi Ron. The Quran does not say that humans were created "only" from water or "only" from dust. The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 18 December 2010 at 8:38pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things. And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?" "A clear indication in favor of the Quran’s claim that it is a revelation from God?"
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:11pm
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* *Originally posted by islamispeace* The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things. And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?" "A clear indication in favor of the Quran’s claim that it is a revelation from God?" Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation. Whether you believe in creation or evolution, you would have to admit that water and earth (which contains the elements necessary for life) play a role in the development of man. Some cultures, like the ancient Greeks, seemed to believe that man was created simply by being molded from mud or earth and that was it. If you can demonstrate that humanity being created from water and other things, as the Quran says, was claimed by cultures before the coming of Islam, then you would have proven that this being mentioned in the Quran is not a scientific miracle. It would not be a miracle if it was already known. In that case, it would just be a repeat of what was known for spiritual reasons, to remind mankind of its origins.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
	IP Logged

Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:40pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation. I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust?? By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important. It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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rememberallah Senior Member Joined: 08 November 2010 Online Status: Offline Posts: 158	Posted: 19 December 2010 at 8:07am
	*Originally posted by Ron Webb* I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust?? By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important. It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best. peace be on you the point is not what all things are mentioned, the point is the wrong things are not mentioned, eg. science believed till 19th century that ether is contained in every living and nonliving body, which gives heat. only later to discover that there is no such thing as ether. now you are trying to force contradictions, you know what you are doing................if a man says newyork and washington dc are close by, you are commenting that his knowledge is spotty as he doesnt mention america. my brother who shares this earth with me, take out time to know yourself, your nature, or you will always be working out unfair arguments. May God help all to realise their nature.
	The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
	IP Logged

islamispeace Islam Senior Member Joined: 01 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1417	Posted: 19 December 2010 at 11:36am
	I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life. And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust?? There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation. I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water. Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make. Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother. "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles. Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing. Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay. This goes back to my original post. Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors. By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important. It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best. Just because it does not mention the ovum does not mean the author of the Quran did not know that both male and female factors are involved. I think it is safe to say that people in those times did know that in order to have a baby, a man needed to have sexual intercourse with a woman. Right? It was also understood that sperm was the "seed". Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum". There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop". As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum. You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists.
	Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)
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Ron Webb Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1401	Posted: 19 December 2010 at 4:15pm
	*Originally posted by islamispeace* There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation. I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water. Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make. In ancient times, water was considered one of the four elements (along with air, fire and earth). Anything liquid was considered a form of water: blood, urine, sweat, lymph. So yeah, anyone who ever jabbed a spear into an enemy soldier would know quite well that water is a major constituent. Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother. "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles. Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing. Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay. This goes back to my original post. Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors. So the reference to water is to be taken literally, but the dust and the clay are not? How do you know that? Is there some clue in the text that tells you when Allah is being literal and when He is merely being poetic or metaphorical? Or do you simply choose the interpretation that best suits your purpose? Just because it does not mention the ovum does not mean the author of the Quran did not know that both male and female factors are involved. I think it is safe to say that people in those times did know that in order to have a baby, a man needed to have sexual intercourse with a woman. Right? It was also understood that sperm was the "seed". It was (and apparently still is) commonly misunderstood. The proper analogy in the plant kingdom for sperm would be "pollen", not "seed". The seed corresponds more closely to the female ovum -- but the ancients didn't even know such a thing existed, which is why they got it wrong. Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum". There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop". As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum. You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists. The common word for "ovum" is "egg", and I'm quite sure there was such an Arabic word at the time.
	Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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schmikbob Male Agnostic Senior Member Joined: 27 June 2010 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 422	Posted: 19 December 2010 at 5:54pm
	Excellent critique Ron. I think you will find this is a common element in most of the "Quran does science" crowd's arguments. They choose a word or two and interpret it in a very specific way to stuff it into a modern scientific definition and another couple of words will be defined as a metaphoric phrase and, of course, is not to be taken literally.
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