Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Every living thing made from water. Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 36 Next >>
Author Message
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1633
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2010 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by rememberallah

Quran {21:30}-"and we created every living thing out of water"
Quran {24:45}-"and the God has created every animal from water"
Quran {25:54}-"it is he who has created man from water"
 
And yet in {30:20}, among other passages, the Quran says "He creates you out of dust". 
 
So is it dust, or is it water?


Hi Ron.  The Quran does not say that humans were created "only" from water or "only" from dust.  The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things.       
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1496
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2010 at 8:38pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

  The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things. 
 
And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?"  "A clear indication in favor of the Qurans claim that it is a revelation from God?"  LOL
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1633
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:11pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by islamispeace

  The obvious conclusion is that humans are created from water and dust, among other things. 
 
And according to rememberallah, this is the "scientific fact which could not had been known 1400 yrs ago?"  "A clear indication in favor of the Qurans claim that it is a revelation from God?"  LOL


Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation.  Whether you believe in creation or evolution, you would have to admit that water and earth (which contains the elements necessary for life) play a role in the development of man.  Some cultures, like the ancient Greeks, seemed to believe that man was created simply by being molded from mud or earth and that was it.  If you can demonstrate that humanity being created from water and other things, as the Quran says, was claimed by cultures before the coming of Islam, then you would have proven that this being mentioned in the Quran is not a scientific miracle.  It would not be a miracle if it was already known.  In that case, it would just be a repeat of what was known for spiritual reasons, to remind mankind of its origins.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1496
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 18 December 2010 at 9:40pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

Well, that would depend on whether people in that time period knew if water was an essential part of the human body and that it was one of the factors involved in creation.

I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life.  And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??

By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important.  It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best.

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
rememberallah
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 08 November 2010
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 158
Quote rememberallah Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2010 at 8:07am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life.  And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??

By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important.  It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best.

 
peace be on you
the point is not what all things are mentioned, the point is the wrong things are not mentioned, eg. science believed till 19th century that ether is contained in every living and nonliving body, which gives heat. only later to discover that there is no such thing as ether.
 
now you are trying to force contradictions, you know what you are doing................if a man says newyork and washington dc are close by, you are commenting that his knowledge is spotty as he doesnt mention america.
my brother who shares this earth with me, take out time to know yourself, your nature, or you will always be working out unfair arguments.
May God help all to realise their nature.
 
The whole world is like Hazrat Umar but no one is like his sister and brother in law.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1633
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2010 at 11:36am
I think I would find it harder to believe that there was ever a society that didn't know that water is essential to life.  And in what sense is it a scientific fact that we are made from dust??


There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation.  I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water.  Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make. 

Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother.  "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles.  Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing.  Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay.  This goes back to my original post.  Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors.

By the way, in several other places the Quran says that we are made from male sperm -- but it never mentions the female ovum, which is at least as important.  It seems to me that the Quran's knowledge of human origins is spotty at best.


Just because it does not mention the ovum does not mean the author of the Quran did not know that both male and female factors are involved.  I think it is safe to say that people in those times did know that in order to have a baby, a man needed to have sexual intercourse with a woman.  Right?  It was also understood that sperm was the "seed".  Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum".  There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop".  As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum.  You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Ron Webb
Male Humanism
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 30 January 2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1496
Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2010 at 4:15pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

There is a big difference in knowing that water is essential for life and survival and in knowing that water was essential to man's creation.  I doubt that many people in those days knew, for instance, that the human body is almost 60% water.  Like I said, if you can demonstrate that people knew that man was created from water (amongst other things), then you would have a point to make.

In ancient times, water was considered one of the four elements (along with air, fire and earth).  Anything liquid was considered a form of water: blood, urine, sweat, lymph.  So yeah, anyone who ever jabbed a spear into an enemy soldier would know quite well that water is a major constituent.

Man's creation from dust refers to the creation of Adam, who had no father or mother.  "Dust" does not mean the stuff you find in your house containing random particles.  Rather, it is a reference to man's origins from almost nothing.  Furthermore, the Quran states that Adam was also created from clay.  This goes back to my original post.  Just because the Quran says that man was created from water or dust or clay in one verse, does not mean that man's creation did not involve other elements or factors.

So the reference to water is to be taken literally, but the dust and the clay are not?  How do you know that?  Is there some clue in the text that tells you when Allah is being literal and when He is merely being poetic or metaphorical?  Or do you simply choose the interpretation that best suits your purpose?

Just because it does not mention the ovum does not mean the author of the Quran did not know that both male and female factors are involved.  I think it is safe to say that people in those times did know that in order to have a baby, a man needed to have sexual intercourse with a woman.  Right?  It was also understood that sperm was the "seed".

It was (and apparently still is) commonly misunderstood.  The proper analogy in the plant kingdom for sperm would be "pollen", not "seed".  The seed corresponds more closely to the female ovum -- but the ancients didn't even know such a thing existed, which is why they got it wrong.

Furthermore, I am not sure if there was even an Arabic word in those times that could be used to refer to the "ovum".  There was a word, however, for sperm or semen which is "nut-fatan" or "semen-drop".  As you can see, there was a practical reason the Quran does not mention the ovum.  You also have to keep in mind that the first audience to hear the Quran were the Arabs, who were not exactly biologists. 

The common word for "ovum" is "egg", and I'm quite sure there was such an Arabic word at the time. 

Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
IP IP Logged
schmikbob
Male Agnostic
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 27 June 2010
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 459
Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 19 December 2010 at 5:54pm
Excellent critique Ron.  I think you will find this is a common element in most of the "Quran does science" crowd's arguments.  They choose a word or two and interpret it in a very specific way to stuff it into a modern scientific definition and another couple of words will be defined as a metaphoric phrase and, of course, is not to be taken literally. 
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 36 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com