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Interfaith Dialogue
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Message Icon Topic: Ibn-Hazm (Khazem) and Corruption Post Reply Post New Topic
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honeto
 
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2011 at 1:50pm
Dear Eg,
I hope you benefit from the truth shown to you by all who are taking on this important issue.
I will say it is nieve of you to think say that if people will alter what is given to them in a trust from God would mean that God is incapable. Thus if it is word of God, and it is in human hands it cannot be corrupted. It is childish to think that. Read the preface to your Bible, if your Bible does not have one, let me know, I will be glad to scan that page and post it for you that states about alterations.
As for the moment, I have something to show you. It is a simple example of how when hands change, so does the interpretations and meanings.
 
The Jewish OT Isaiah chapter 9 (at Chabad.org) says something completely different than what it means in Christian Bible. It clearly shows the intention behind it.
I will not give my opinion but just what is truthfully out there as a fact and example of a transformation.
5. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
 
Now note very carefully how the Christians, after adopting the OT, modified its meaning in places to fit the new doctrine that was never there.
6 For to us a child is born,
   to us a son is given,
   and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
   Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
   Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
 
It is clear that just how altered placement of words can change the whole truth. I beleive this is the case and truth when we say that the word of God in human hands got altered by man who were supposed to be its caretakers. The above example beside numerous others shown by learned brothers and sisters on this boeard, not to mention many Biblical scholars themselves testify to the fact that alterations took palce.
Bible has testified to that fact itself:

Jeremiah 8:8 (New International Version, ©2011)

 8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
   for we have the law of the LORD,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
   has handled it falsely?

We all have presented to you the evidence and the facts, the testimony from the Bible itself.
Now here is the biggest authority and the Testimony from the Quran, the Final word from God to mankind:

Al Maidah (5):12 God did aforetime take a Covenant from the Children of Israel......(13) their hearts grew hard. They changed the words from their places and forgot a good part of the messsage that was sent them...........

14 From those who call themselves Christians we did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them.........soon will God show them what it is they have done.

15. O people of the Book (Jews and Christians) there hath come to you our Messanger, revealing to you that you used to hide in the book, and passing over much (that is now unneccessary."

There hath come to you from God a new light and a perspicuous Book.

16 Wherewith God guides all who seek His good pleasure, to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness by His will, Unto the light-guideth them to a path that is straight.

Hasan



Edited by honeto - 28 March 2011 at 1:58pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2011 at 3:49pm
Good response brother Hasan.  You have raised some valid points.  Jazak Allah Khair.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Shibboleth Replybullet Posted: 30 March 2011 at 10:12am

Originally posted by BMZ

So, naturally the New Testament is definitely not the Injeel as it was given by the Church, not the LORD Almighty … And when Qur'aan refers to the Torah and the Injeel or simply talks about the past scriptures, it refers to only the truth that went before Qur'aan …

Can you tell us who that church was? Did Moses or Jesus posses these truthful records you speak of? The truth that went before the Quran, where are those sacred writings now and can you share them with us? Is it available at all to support your premise or can you compare it to the Injeel to show what was corrupted? If not, at best it’s taken ONLY as a (false) accusation, nothing more. Did any of the other Prophets posses them? Did God have them recorded for our benefit? Or is it because Muhammad says so and not Moses or Jesus?

Originally posted by islamispeace

The Quran states very clearly that the previous revelations were corrupted ...  

Yea, yea, yea; and the Quran calls the Torah and the Injil “the Books of Enlightenment” Q 35:25 and scores of Quranic verses state that these books are from God Q 2:89 My favorite is Q 21:7 your Quran recommends seeking out those versed in the Torah and the Injil Q 21:7

*Wama arsalna qablaka illarijalan noohee ilayhim fais-aloo ahla alththikriin kuntum la taAAlamoona

Would an invitation be given to turn BACK to corrupted books Isse? What logic is behind that?

 

In any case, Jesus’ says otherwise, which I will address next despite what he claims.

Originally posted by BMZ

Thus Qur'aan does not say or verify that everything in the OT and the NT, is correct …

It doesn’t need too, Jesus already had many, many years ago and verified everything in the scriptures were absolutely correct. Remember the Holy Scriptures were already completed before there was even a Saudi Arabia.

Luke 24:25-27 So he said to them: “O senseless ones and slow in heart to believe on all the things the prophets spoke! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into his glory?” 27 And commencing at Moses and all the Prophets he interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures

Jesus verifies everything in the scriptures is correct.

44 He now said to them: “These are my words which I spoke to YOU while I was yet with YOU, that all the things written in the law of Moses and in the Prophets and Psalms about me must be fulfilled.” 45 Then he opened up their minds fully to grasp the meaning of the Scriptures.

Again - Jesus verifies everything in the scriptures is correct.

Do you believe your Prophet Jesus? Why did Jesus not say these writing were corrupt? Why only Muhammad? Did Muhammad say Jesus was wrong for not saying it?

John 14:26 “While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, that one will teach YOU ‘all’ things and bring back to YOUR minds ‘all’ the things I told YOU.

Jesus verifies and confirms everything in the scriptures is correct because it was through the Holy Spirit they wrote these things about Jesus.

Now, I know Muslims would like this to fit Muhammad’s case, who wouldn’t want this to fit their spiritual leader but it doesn’t, direct evidence simply proves otherwise. The Holy Spirit help the Apostle’s in their writings of the Gospel. Do you have a Holy Book before the Quran to show and prove otherwise, that these were not Jesus’ words? I would love to read it, because if you’re comparing them to your Quran and what it has to say about the scriptures before it, you are the one that have misinterpreted them. If you have a Holy book that proves the “Dead Sea Scrolls” to be incorrect or inaccurate, produce the facts? Or again, is it Muhammad’s words and the Jinn?   

Originally posted by MANSOOR ALI

Well if you read Surah 4:157 it clearly denies any crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Which I’m not surprised at, why wouldn’t it, remember who is behind it all, the Jinn; besides, most if not all ‘sacred’ writings talk against other so called sacred writings, but the Old and New Testament are the oldest books that ever existed that is still around today. All other such books are simply out dated starting with the Quran first!

Interestingly enough the crucifixion or sacrifice of Jesus as the ‘Lamb of God that takes sin away from the world’ is the pillar to the Old and New Testament, it wouldn’t survive without it. Obviously Muslims have no clue WHY sacrifices in earlier times HAD to be offered in the first place. Why Cain and Able had to offer up a sacrifice to God? Why Abraham’s faith was tested to offer his son up as a sacrifice. For the Quran to deny the sacrifice of Jesus and as Muslims say “their” Prophet is to deny Almighty God, his Holy writings and Jesus as the ‘TRUE’ Prophet of God although the whole world knows Jesus to be more than just a Prophet.

Nonetheless, it clearly shows why Muhammad was coerce to recite or die, he had no other choice I guess but to do what the jinn had threaten him to do! In the Muslim community it is the world best kept secret! This ploy would then divert Muslims attention from Jesus being the savior of the world to an imperfect man name Muhammad, no different from when some of the Jews attention was miss-directed from Jesus as he came to the lost sheep of Israel. However, Revelations only come from God and Jesus, not Gabriel or any other angel.

Therefore the birth of Islam the Quran and Muhammad was born. Muhammad was Devil-handled unlike Jesus who Then said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah (YHWH) your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (MATT 4:10)

Jesus did not in any way, shape or form fall for the bait as did Muhammad. What was the bait you ask? (Matt. 4:8) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

The Jinn/Devil/Satan wanted to be worshipped! Jesus did not fall for the bait but Muhammad did. And from a human standpoint Muhammad was rewarded for worshipping him. All the riches, power, glory, women and the list go on.

It was the oldest trick in the book, really! In the first book of Geneses, it happened in the Garden of Eden, they fell for it and it happened to Muhammad and he fell for it and here we are at this juncture.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Would this include Jesus disciples, Muhammad! and every man, women and child who came AFTER Jesus? Yes. Why? Man is too sinful (Muhammad displayed that all too well) he needs a redeemer, a mediator to get to God. Much like the ‘Nation of Israel needed Moses as a mediator.  

(John 1:29) The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Originally posted by honeto

I have something to show you. It is a simple example of how when hands change, so does the interpretations and meanings …. For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace." … It is clear that just how altered placement of words can change the whole truth …

In Isaiah 9:6 that you quoted what truth was changed and what new doctrine or meaning are you referring too?

 

“If you doubt what we have revealed to you, ask those who have read the Scriptures before you.” (Sura 10, Yunis [Jonah], verse 94) & (Surah Al ‘Imran: 84-85)
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:07am

 To Shibb

 If your Bible is so reliable then provide satisfactory response to chronological contradiction in Mark 4:39-40 and Matthew 8:26??
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:49am

Originally posted by MANSOOR ALI

Well if you read Surah 4:157 it clearly denies any crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Shibboleth

Which I’m not surprised at, why wouldn’t it, remember who is behind it all, the Jinn; besides, most if not all ‘sacred’ writings talk against other so called sacred writings, but the Old and New Testament are the oldest books that ever existed that is still around today. All other such books are simply out dated starting with the Quran first!

Interestingly enough the crucifixion or sacrifice of Jesus as the ‘Lamb of God that takes sin away from the world’ is the pillar to the Old and New Testament, it wouldn’t survive without it. Obviously Muslims have no clue WHY sacrifices in earlier times HAD to be offered in the first place. Why Cain and Able had to offer up a sacrifice to God? Why Abraham’s faith was tested to offer his son up as a sacrifice. For the Quran to deny the sacrifice of Jesus and as Muslims say “their” Prophet is to deny Almighty God, his Holy writings and Jesus as the ‘TRUE’ Prophet of God although the whole world knows Jesus to be more than just a Prophet.

Nonetheless, it clearly shows why Muhammad was coerce to recite or die, he had no other choice I guess but to do what the jinn had threaten him to do! In the Muslim community it is the world best kept secret! This ploy would then divert Muslims attention from Jesus being the savior of the world to an imperfect man name Muhammad, no different from when some of the Jews attention was miss-directed from Jesus as he came to the lost sheep of Israel. However, Revelations only come from God and Jesus, not Gabriel or any other angel.

Therefore the birth of Islam the Quran and Muhammad was born. Muhammad was Devil-handled unlike Jesus who Then said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah (YHWH) your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (MATT 4:10)

Jesus did not in any way, shape or form fall for the bait as did Muhammad. What was the bait you ask? (Matt. 4:8) Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, 9 and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”

The Jinn/Devil/Satan wanted to be worshipped! Jesus did not fall for the bait but Muhammad did. And from a human standpoint Muhammad was rewarded for worshipping him. All the riches, power, glory, women and the list go on.

It was the oldest trick in the book, really! In the first book of Geneses, it happened in the Garden of Eden, they fell for it and it happened to Muhammad and he fell for it and here we are at this juncture.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Would this include Jesus disciples, Muhammad! and every man, women and child who came AFTER Jesus? Yes. Why? Man is too sinful (Muhammad displayed that all too well) he needs a redeemer, a mediator to get to God. Much like the ‘Nation of Israel needed Moses as a mediator.  

(John 1:29) The next day he beheld Jesus coming toward him, and he said: “See, the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.



 To Shibb.

 Jesus Christ himself denied the crucifixion in Luke 13:33.

 Luke 13:33 says: “it is impossible for a prophet to die outside of Jerusalem

 Obviously Luke 13 verse 33 is a reference to Jesus Christ.We also know Jesus is a Prophet (Matthew 21:11,Matthew 13:57,Mark 6:4,Luke 4:24,Luke 24:19,Luke 7:16,John 7:40).

 Now, logically, if Jesus cannot die outside of Jerusalem, and the cross was outside of Jerusalem, then Jesus did not die on the cross.

 According to the records that we have in the gospels Jesus supposedly died at a place called Golgotha (Matthew 27:23, Mark 15:22, Luke 23:33 and John 19:17).

 Question is:Where was Golgotha?

 According to an article by Keith W. Stump Golgotha was outside of Jerusalem.

 “What does the Bible tell us about the location? The Gospel writers call the place where Jesus was crucified Golgotha—an Aramaic word meaning “the skull.” Calvary is the Latin form of the word. Scripture does not reveal the precise location of Golgotha. It simply states that Jesus’ crucifixion took place outside the city of Jerusalem, though near it (John 19:20; Hebrews 13:12). Jewish law did not permit executions and burials inside the city.”

 

 HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary informs,

“John 19:20 and Jewish and Roman execution customs indicate that it was located outside of Jerusalem’s city walls”. (Paul J. Achtemeier. HarperCollins’ Bible Dictionary(1996). HarperCollins. p. 164)

 

 Mercer Dictionary of the Bible tells us,

“Jewish and Roman law would likely have required capital punishment to take place outside the city walls (John 19:20; Heb 13:12).” (Watson E. Mills. Mercer Dictionary of the Bible(1990). Macon, Georgia: Mercer University Press. p. 128)

 

 According to Encyclopedia Brittanica Golgotha was outside Jerusalem,

“The hill of execution was outside the city walls of Jerusalem, apparently near a road and not far from the sepulchre where Jesus was buried.”

 
 According to John Jesus was taken to a place called Golgotha which was   outside of Jerusalem.Now there are only two options:

 1. Jesus lied in Luke 13:33

2. Jesus did not lie in Luke 13:33.


  Luke 13:33 clearly denies what is told about his alleged crucifixion. Unless he died in Jerusalem the whole incident was no incident at all.

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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



An incorruptible God can only only produce an incorruptible Word. A god whose word can be corrupted is a corruptible god not worthy of worship.
 



 Then you shouldnot worship Jesus Christ because your current Bible has flaws.Let me show you.In the story "Jesus calms the storm," did Jesus stop the storm then rebuke the disciples, or the other way round?

  Mark's Gospel

 First he stopped the storm:

 Mark 4:39:

"He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm."


 Then he rebuked the disciples:

 Mark 4:40:
"He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"



 Matthew's Gospel

 First he rebuked the disciples:

 Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."


 Then he stopped the storm:

 
Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."



 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with these chronological contradictions, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false.

 

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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 31 March 2011 at 12:52am

 To Shibb

 If your Bible is so reliable then provide satisfactory response to chronological contradiction in Mark 4:39-40 and Matthew 8:26??
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Quote honeto Replybullet Posted: 02 April 2011 at 3:07pm
To Eg,
I am waiting to hear your response to my last post above regarding transformation of the Bible contents and their meanings by those who wrote it over and over.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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