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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 23 March 2011 at 2:13am
I had been on the fence on this thread_______________ LOL
But it is about time that I prick your trial balloon of ignorance!
I would like to be brief but you have put so much in opening that I might have do the same! 
Note: My response are in magenta the quote system not working on my desktop! So here are my two cents!
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

The cornerstone of Muslim Apologetics to Christians is the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption.  However, most Muslims:
1. Do not know the history of this doctrine.
2. Have never thought through the theological implications of this doctrine.
3. Have never thought through the historical implications of this doctrine.

In this thread, I would like to discuss these issues.
These are assumptions not facts...There are no Muslim apologetics; it is  Christian phenomena, the premise is false!

a·pol·o·get·ics  /əˌpɒləˈdʒɛtɪks/ Show Spelled

the branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of christianity.

History of the Doctrine:
Ibn Hazm (aka Ibn Khazem) was the first Muslim to posit the Doctrine of Biblical Corruption in the 11th century AD.  Thus for the first four centuries of Islamic history this doctrine did not exist.
From the get go let me warn you as you picked a wrong horse to put your wager on...Ibn Hazm (who told you Ibn Khazem  is a mystery) came on the scene  in Muslim Spain when the four Imams of Ahle wal Jammah were totally done with their work of Fiqh for the commonwealth of Muslims for a long long time... over a couple of centuries...He was a philosopher and proverbial  for the Europeans only not for the main body of Muslims! Muslims lost lots of stuff and if some Muslims of today don't know him or remember what was he about it is no harm, no foul kind of thing!

This is in keeping with a literal grammatical reading of the Quran which claims to be " a confirmation of what was before it and a detailed explanation of the [former] Scripture" Surah 10:37

However, Ibn Hazm noticed that the Quran does not live up to the standard which it proclaims:
Where did he say that or you are taking your own liberties funny man?
10:37 Simply states that what Allah revealed to all the prophets previously not what unauthorized charlatans made up for the this worldly power gain through organized cults! 

"Ibn-Khazem saw the contradictions between the Qur'an and the Gospels. One obvious example being the Qur'anic text `They slew him not and they crucified him not' Surah 4:156. `Since the Qur'an must be true,' Ibn- Khazem argued, `it must be the conflicting Gospel texts that are false. But Muhammad tells us to respect the Gospel. Therefore, the present text must have been falsified by the Christians.' His argument was not based on historical facts, but purely on his own reasoning and on his wish to safeguard the truth of the Qur'an. I. DI MATTEO, (`Il "takhrif" od alterazione della Bibbia secondo i musulmani', Bessarione 38 (1922) 64-111; 223-260; `Le preteze contradizzioni della S. Scrittura secondo Ibn-Hazm', Bessarione 39 (1923) 77-127, E. FRITSCH, op. cit., p. 66.)"

"Nothing could stop him from pursuing this accusation, it seemed the easiest way to attack the opponents. `If we prove the falsehood of their books, they lose the arguments they take from them.' (IBN KHAZEM, Kitab al-fasl fi'l-milah wa'l ahwa'l nikhal, II,6; E. FRITSCH, op cit., p.55) and this led to him eventually making the cynical statement `The Christians lost the revealed Gospel except for a few traces which Allah has left intact as argument against them.' ( IBN KHAZEM, ibid.; E. FRITSCH, op. cit, p. 64)"
 
"Later writers took up the same reasoning, enlarged it and embellished it. The falsification of the Bible was thus asserted by Salikh Ibn-al-Khusain (died 1200AD), Ahmad at-Qarafi (died 1285AD), Sa'id Ibn-Khasan (died 1320AD), Muhammad Ibn-Abi-Talib (died 1327AD), Ibn-Taimija (died 1328AD) and many others. From then on it has become a fixed ingredient of Muslim apologetics[/QUOTE] .


I am wondering what is your agenda to import Danial Pipes' reference here! The above narrative is non sequitur so far the issue of Christian Bible is concerned. The well versed Muslims ought to concur the part of available Gospel that is from the direct statement of Jesus. aka Nazarene creed.Period
All others aka Nicean creed rejected cuz as we say in language of quality assurance you need to check the product against the master drawing specifications and standards ( Absolute monotheistic standards as reiterated in master Torah & Gospel and finally Quran) and then accept or reject!

 Now will quote an incident that refutes the basis of your thread... that you need to send to Danial Pipes and his votaries to put in their archives for their posterity!
The stand of Christians was proven false during the time of prophets time. There is no need for anyone to dig up what Ibn Hazm proclaimed to the ignorant Europeans of his time!

The Holy Prophet was sending invitations to all to accept the true religion of God. Tribe after tribe, region after region, were coming into the fold of Islam. One such invitation was sent to the Christians of Najran, a town in Yemen, in the 9th year of Hijra. A deputation of 60 scholars came to discuss the matter with the Holy Prophet.
Abdul Masih, ( slave of Jesus ) the chief monk, asked the Prophet(s) as to who was the father of Jesus, thinking that the Holy Prophet would accept (God as the father of Jesus).

The following verse 

3:59 The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.

was revealed to him and presented to the Christians as a reply but they did not listen to reason.
Then this verse was revealed to call them to a spiritual contest by invoking the curse of Allah on the liars mubahilah.


 
3:61 But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

 
The Christians agreed to this contest.

Early next morning, the Prophet came in, with grandsons Husayn in his arms,Hasan holding his index finger, walking beside him, daughter Fatimah Zahra, close to his heels and son in law Ali just behind

The Holy Prophet raised his hands to the heaven and said:

"O my Lord! These are the people of my house".

The chief monk looked up and down at their faces He cried out aloud:

"I see the faces that if they turn upward to the heavens and pray, the mountains shall move.

The Christians saw the wisdom of their chief and readily agreed to arrive at a settlement and didn't want to go pray for cursing the liars .


Why would any one with a sane mind would accept a reference from a notorious Islamophic gutter sniper Danial Pipes whose daily wages come from the forces of darkness to pay for his nefarious effortsQuestion

[QUOTETheological Implications of the Doctrine:

If God was either unable or unwilling to keep His Word from corruption, then He is not God.[/QUOTE]
This is called free will of the men of Israelite, they asked for a contract and then defaulted for not  doing their part of the bid and sold their souls to Mammon! Then came the termination of the contract with birth of their messiah without a man cuz no one was worthy any more to be the husband of last of God's favorite i.e. Miriam ...Allah gave the final call before closing the game! time was over that was the last chance to shape up...No MORE PROPHETS IN ISRAELITE LINE>PERIOD.
 
If He was not able to keep His Word from corruption then He is not Omnipotent and thus not God.If He was unwilling to keep His Word from Corruption then His attributes of Veracity and Immutability are compromised and He is not God:

To me it all makes perfect sense God controls nations not individuals! God gave ten commandments and I personally lots of people those who intentionally broke those one by one and no bolt of lightening appeared to stop them! You need a law enforcement for the scofflaws! And the problem was the Caucasian man made laws protected the them!
  They want to follow their own desires that is their business to a point.

His word is not corrupted rather what you have is not HIS Word but stories made up told by different writers and their views; that is normal when there is truth then there is an opposite...Then you go to court get the adjudication if there need be. And you have come to right place!
 Why did Paul go to European gentiles to preach his own Gospel cuz he was Hellenised racist
and saw a great opportunity to make new religion involving the Europeans based on Jesus after he disappeared from the scene. So far we are concerned GOD canceled the prophetic contract with sending of Jesus to the Israelite. He was not sent the gentiles Paul took that upon himself!
But that didn't stop the westerners in making more prophets of all size and kinds...they wrote more stories to create cults and churches than one can shake the stick at!
Just look
Catholicism, Lutheranism, Protestantism, Baptism, Mormonism, Communism, Leninism Marxism My GOD don't they stop inventing stuff wait I forgot capitalism socialism and many more isms...
 
I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Psalm 138:2

The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever.Isaiah 40:8

Historical Implications of the Doctrine:

The historical implications of this doctrine are huge. The Bible is by far the most well attested book of antiquity. The manuscript evidence is much stronger than any other ancient writing. Thus to throw out the Bible as corrupted is to throw out the writings of: Homer, Virgil, Tacitus, Josephus, Julius Caesar, Ovid, Virgil, Euripides, Sophocles, Aristotle, Suetonius, etc., basically all of Ancient History.

Thus, Ibn Hazm's doctrine of Biblical Corruption makes no sense. It should be rejected by the honest Muslim. It is an impediment to the necessary confrontation of the critical question:

What is the real reason why the Quran and the Bible disagree on most major doctrines?

You are shoving Ibn Hazm in our faces same as Paul did in the absence of Jesus! He made up things that Quraanic revelations totally reject.
Paul had no business pitching his creed to anyone but he did that anyway just like Karl Marx did creating communism and Herzle did creating Zionism! It was Paul's doing that paved the way for the subjugation of the nonwhite nations around the globe in the long run! Don't you see how successful were their worldly themes! But the hereafter is another matter!

"Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's". These God's word's LOL

Imagine even today in the west most wealth is in the hands of 1-2 percent of the elite that in reality worship is approval of Mammon worship instead of God!

And just heard the famous Helen Thomas say "Every Prez is a liar"....Think about it one who takes oath on a Bible!
Paul was a prolific writer! A prophet can't be, the novelists are! Do you get it?
The bottom line the Pauline way was to get the Mithric creed co opted from Rome at any cost along with the Jewish Tanakh's characters and it finally did happen, with same trinitarian dogma that the Mithric cult had... the rest is history of horrors once the Christianity took hold of the Europeans! The only difference a touch of self styled divinity sprinkling of holy water at every step of mayhem and Muslims did suffer at their hands in Inquisition, Crusades and others in internecine wars, wholesale indiscriminate slaughter of the populace in Europe Africa and Americas , colonialism and destruction of effete Muslim polity in their own lands when they were told to be vigilant!

How is it all possible for some pieces of gold and silver and some trinkets in the name of Jesus whose life is known barely may be three years to the masses and rest a mystery? Where as most of the life the Mhmd(s) is recorded with inntricate detail and he left behind a Realm known the world over! When you pick up a Quran no where you see from cover to cover who wrote it! Just think!
29:46 (P) And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.

To this end I will accept what was actually revealed by God to the prophets of Israelite ending with Jesus and no arguing beside that!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 23 March 2011 at 7:15pm
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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Posted: 25 March 2011 at 7:21am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I had been on the fence on this thread_______________ LOL
Welcome to the party Sign*reader. Hop on the bus with Islamispeace and let me take you to school.
 
First in your long epistle you neglected to adress the 800 pound Gorilla in the room (as did Isalmispeace):
 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

So now let's hone in. I keep repeating myself because you keep ignoring the 800 pound gorilla in the room:
 
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

God is incorruptible thus His Word  must also be incorruptible.
 
This is the only valid theological Doctrine of God's Word
 
Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul? What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?
 
No sir. Such a god is not God.
 
The God of the Bible said that His name endures forever:
 
יהוה שמך לעולם
Your name, O LORD, endures forever (Psalm 135:13)
 
and that His Word is even more sure than His name:
 
הגדלת על-כל-שמך אמרתך
you have magnified your word above all your name (Psalm 138:2)
 
Thus the conclusion in Isaiah:
 
יבש חציר נבל ציץ ודבר אלהינו יקום לעולם 
The grass withers, the flower fades, But the word of our God stands forever. Isaiah 40:8
 
repeated by Peter:
 
τὸ δὲ ῥῆμα κυρίου μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα
BUT THE WORD OF THE LORD ENDURES FOREVER 1 Peter 1:25
 
Now such a God I can entrust with the salvation of my soul.
 
הללו־יה 
αλληλουια
Hallelujah!


Edited by Egwpisteuw - 25 March 2011 at 7:31am
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 2:15am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul?


800 # gorilla LOL

You are sadly mistaken that in anyway entrust your soul to Allah! The debate is about about you spamming Ibn Hazm, from your soul manager Daniel Pipes!

I gave the rebuttal about your hopelessly fact challenged and dumb spam and then you want to obfuscate with mumbo jumbo going off on a tangent of your personal insecurities about your soul...In order to cover your embarrassment you are quoting from OT/NT to justify your lost state cuz OT and NT are the polar opposite in content and application...Would you ever try quoting NT on a jewish site to prove anything you will be shouted out with expletives!

 
What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

Again you are not addressing the subject...but anyho if you want to talk about soul...
A simple answer: when you polish the mirror you get the clear reflection and  same is with heart, where soul (the better/ worst self as the case may be) resides when at peace it is heaven...

Either you are going to control and guard your soul or it is going to run your life, you have to make that choice!

The narcissistic western man driven by his soul wants others to bend to his  demands and desires; wants the best of both worlds till the shell of body is all worn out shot out as the case may be...You can look around wherever you are you can find examples galore Hollywood and Wall Street! The whole system is running by the narcissism of the souls ODied on OT/NT, it doesn't matter rich, poor or anyone in between!
Every soul draws the meed of its acts on none but itself...He that receives guidance benefits his own soul, but he that strays injure his own soul...

So don't pass the buck you are responsible! Verily never will God change the condition of people until they change it themselves with their own souls!

The old saying the tree is known by its fruits and action speaks louder than words! Last night I found a perfect documentary to show you what I am saying it will blow you away!
Spend a dollar and get a documentary "INSIDE JOB" and look at the faces, places and names then think about the rottenness of their souls; where they belong in Hell or paradise? who their god is? I dare you see this film!
You will presently find most of characters are real in the film are un-indicted thieves and robbers as were at the time of Jesus Jews and their lackeys who are Christians...but on a global scale!
If you can proselytize anyone by spamming you must be living in fools  paradize! 






Edited by Sign*Reader - 26 March 2011 at 2:48am
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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 6:19am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Egwpisteuw

Why would I ever entrust a whimsical, capricious, ne'er-do-well god, whose word he allowed to be corrupted by man, with the salvation of my soul?
The debate is about about you spamming Ibn Hazm... 
What assurance do I have that he will not also allow my soul to be lost and corrupted the same way he allowed his word to be lost and corrupted?

Again you are not addressing the subject...
Sign*Reader, the subject is a theological debate. Ibn Hazm posited the Doctrine of the Corruption of God's Word. This doctrine is the cornerstone of Islamic Apologetics (1).  Without this doctrine, Islam cannot be defended since the Quran, on which it is based, says it agrees with the Bible (Surah 3:3), but clearly, upon examination, does not.
 
Ibn Hazm did not think through the logical implications of his doctrine. A god who cannot keep his word is a god who cannot be trusted--just as a man who cannot keep his word is a man who cannot be trusted.
 
I entrust my soul to my Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Mighty God of Isaiah 9:6 who became the God With Us of Isaiah 7:14 and the God Whose Word endures forever in Isaiah 40:8
 
(1) Let me take you to school on the following error that you made:
 
Originally posted by Sign*Reader

There are no Muslim apologetics; it is  Christian phenomena, the premise is false!

a·pol·o·get·ics  /əˌpɒləˈdʒɛtɪks/ Show Spelled

the branch of theology concerned with the defense or proof of christianity.

The English word Apologetics is from the Greek απολογία (apologia) meaning a verbal defense, a speech in defense, a reasoned statement or argument. Thus the more correct definition is as follows:
 
the discipline of defending a position (usually religious) through the systematic use of reason.
 

 


Edited by Egwpisteuw - 26 March 2011 at 6:21am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 March 2011 at 4:06pm
Welcome to the party Sign*reader. Hop on the bus with Islamispeace and let me take you to school.
 
First in your long epistle you neglected to adress the 800 pound Gorilla in the room (as did Isalmispeace):


LOL Both you and your "800 pound gorilla" are suffering from denial.  Any person with an ounce of reason will see that you are chasing your own tail and making a fool out of yourself.  You know in school when you take an exam and leave a question blank, you get the question wrong!  You have failed to refute the arguments I have raised and instead simply repeat the same tired, old arguments.  Join the club...of Christians who have no answers for the contradictions in the Bible!
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Egwpisteuw Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2011 at 5:12am
Originally posted by islamispeace

LOL Both you and your "800 pound gorilla" are suffering from denial.  Any person with an ounce of reason will see that you are chasing your own tail and making a fool out of yourself.  You know in school when you take an exam and leave a question blank, you get the question wrong!  You have failed to refute the arguments I have raised and instead simply repeat the same tired, old arguments. 
 
This is just more ad hominem abuse and idle words. It's nothing more than a tacit admission that you can't answer my argument which I have reduced to down to an ultra-succint formulation:
 
An inccoruptible God can only produce an incorruptible word.
 
Originally posted by islamispeace

the contradictions in the Bible
 
If the Bible has contradictions then you and I both need to become Atheists because:
 
Jesus says the Bible has no contradictions:
 
ου δυναται λυθηναι η γραφη ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:35
 
the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35
 
and the Quran specifically confirms this statement:
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
 
 
 


Edited by Egwpisteuw - 27 March 2011 at 5:46am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 27 March 2011 at 11:19am
This is just more ad hominem abuse and idle words. It's nothing more than a tacit admission that you can't answer my argument which I have reduced to down to an ultra-succint formulation:
 
An inccoruptible God can only produce an incorruptible word.


And this is just more mindless repetition, something I have pointed out before.  This is an argumentum ad nauseum [1].  Even though I have thoroughly refuted this baseless argument already, one more time will not make a difference. 

Your bolded statement is an example of a non-sequitur, which I have pointed out before.  A non-sequitur is "an inference which does not follow from the premises" [2].  Your statement is unproven and based on your own assumption.  It is like saying an infinitely good God will never allow evil to occur, which I have pointed out before and which you ignored.  Obviously, both statements are opinions and actually not based on fact.  God clearly allows evil to occur, so He can also allow humans to willingly corrupt His word.  Of course, His justice demands that those heretics be punished and that the truth be reinstated so that mankind may receive true guidance. 

Your statement is also self-contradictory.  You seem to say that God is limited.  By saying "...God can only produce..." you are placing limits on what God can and cannot do, which is in itself a heresy. 

If the Bible has contradictions then you and I both need to become Atheists because:
 
Jesus says the Bible has no contradictions:
 
ου δυναται λυθηναι η γραφη ΚΑΤΑ ΙΩΑΝΝΗΝ 10:35
 
the Scripture cannot be broken John 10:35
 
and the Quran specifically confirms this statement:
 
He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.


Yet another red herring!  Your continued attempts to ignore the contradictions and resort to diversions shows very clearly that you have no answers.  I also need to correct your statement that we both need to become Atheists.  Actually, only you need to question your faith.  You have shown that clearly with John 10:35.  This is the nail in the coffin for the Bible.  Thank you for proving that. 

On the other hand, the Quran says clearly that it confirms the truth and refutes the falsehood.  The confirmation is the original monotheistic message of the previous prophets.  The refutation is of the heresies and false statements which have been added to the Bible.  Modern scholarship proves this conclusively.  Since you continue to avoid this issue, every post you make is simply littered with fallacies such as argumentum ad nauseum, and red herrings. 


Edited by islamispeace - 27 March 2011 at 11:24am
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Quote Mansoor_ali Replybullet Posted: 28 March 2011 at 5:42am
Originally posted by Egwpisteuw



An incorruptible God can only only produce an incorruptible Word. A god whose word can be corrupted is a corruptible god not worthy of worship.
 



 Then you shouldnot worship Jesus Christ because your current Bible has flaws.Let me show you.In the story "Jesus calms the storm," did Jesus stop the storm then rebuke the disciples, or the other way round?

  Mark's Gospel

 First he stopped the storm:

 Mark 4:39:

"He got up, rebuked the wind and said to the waves, "Quiet! Be still!" Then the wind died down and it was completely calm."


 Then he rebuked the disciples:

 Mark 4:40:
"He said to his disciples, "Why are you so afraid? Do you still have no faith?"



 Matthew's Gospel

 First he rebuked the disciples:

 Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."


 Then he stopped the storm:

 
Matthew 8:26:
"He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm."



 If the Bible is the word of God, every word should be true. But, with these chronological contradictions, only 1 chronological order can be right while other has to be false.

 
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