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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Qur'an promote war? Post Reply Post New Topic
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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 8:20am

Sign Reader, your rants are becoming more and more disjoint with code word jargon thrown about so randomly that it is no longer even worth my time to decipher your attempts at using the English language.     

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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 8:35am
Chrysalis, lets take these one at a time then 1. "Individuals (such as Usama Bin Laden etc) cannot give a call for Jihad. Jihad can only be initiated by the Muslim leader of an Islamic State. (i.e. a valid/authorized leader - not Average Abdullah)".  In fact Usama Bin Laden has given a call to Jihad as have numerous others non heads of state.   Not only that but innummerable muslims have answered this call.  You are saying that all of them are outside the bounds of Islamic Law. 2."It is forbidden to kill innocent women/children in a Jihad. Hence it can only be waged against a military or an army. Civilian targets would be forbidden, and would be considered murder - not part of Jihad."  In fact immeasurable targeting of civilians has taken place.  You are saying that all the members of Islam doing this "Jihad" are also outside the bounds of Islamic Law. 3. "If a Muslim community (country A) is attacked by a foreign force and has its land occupied, and they call for help from other muslim communities (country B)... that is also a valid Jihad, even though country B wasn't attacked. Since the Muslim Ummah is one nation"  One recent example of a nation being attacked and it's land occupied is the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.  Oh wait, there was no call for Jihad there and only the US and it's allies chose to intervene.
 
Do I have that right?   
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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 5:12pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

Sign Reader, your rants are becoming more and more disjoint with code word jargon thrown about so randomly that it is no longer even worth my time to decipher your attempts at using the English language.     

Look at your own English!
Who sent you an invitation to gutter snipe here?
BTW the Tomdispatch article was written expressly for knuckleheads like you!
I am telling you! Read the article or you don't, couldn't care less cuz the truth is bitter medicine but also a healer for the sick!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 09 January 2011 at 6:39pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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schmikbob
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Quote schmikbob Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 6:20pm

Sign Reader, I realize that this article fits right in with your anti everyone mentality.  I also realize that you think your grasp of English is excellent what with the whole "gutter sniping" and "knuckleheads" labels.  I realize this because the military school I went to occationally had undereducated cretins with gigantic egos like yours right before they were ejected for various inabilities to perform.  You should take your ugly finger pointing screeds elsewhere.  Anyone can point a finger.  Maybe you should propose a solution occasionally.    

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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 9:42pm
Your post was quite confusing! Anyhow...


Originally posted by schmikbob

Chrysalis, lets take these one at a time then 1. "Individuals (such as Usama Bin Laden etc) cannot give a call for Jihad. Jihad can only be initiated by the Muslim leader of an Islamic State. (i.e. a valid/authorized leader - not Average Abdullah)".  In fact Usama Bin Laden has given a call to Jihad as have numerous others non heads of state.


So? I thought I already explained how only head of state can give a call for Jihad, and not ordinary individuals. So what are you trying to explain with your Usama e.g.? I think my point was pretty self explanatory. Usama's call is not a valid call for Jihad, more so because it doesn't even meet the other requirements.

Bob: Not only that but innummerable muslims have answered this call.  You are saying that all of them are outside the bounds of Islamic Law.


Which call are you talking about? Are you talking about Al-Qaeda? and the WTC bombings? Yes they are all outside the realms of Islam and cannot be termed Islamically valid/legal/allowed. Rather it would be a sin.

2."It is forbidden to kill innocent women/children in a Jihad. Hence it can only be waged against a military or an army. Civilian targets would be forbidden, and would be considered murder - not part of Jihad."  In fact immeasurable targeting of civilians has taken place.  You are saying that all the members of Islam doing this "Jihad" are also outside the bounds of Islamic Law.


I'll repeat myself. Any muslim who claims "jihad" all the while killing civilians such as innocent women, children, people of religion (monks/priests) is performing outside the realms of Islam (/ic law). E.g. WTC, plane bombings, etc.


3. "If a Muslim community (country A) is attacked by a foreign force and has its land occupied, and they call for help from other muslim communities (country B)... that is also a valid Jihad, even though country B wasn't attacked. Since the Muslim Ummah is one nation" 

Bob: One recent example of a nation being attacked and it's land occupied is the invasion of Kuwait by Iraq.  Oh wait, there was no call for Jihad there and only the US and it's allies chose to intervene.


Pls explain what you're trying to say. If there was no call for Jihad, why are you using this e.g. then?


 
Do I have that right?   


Right to what?



Edited by Chrysalis - 09 November 2010 at 9:44pm
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Matt Browne
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Quote Matt Browne Replybullet Posted: 21 November 2010 at 4:55am
Originally posted by schmikbob

I understand what you are saying Chrysalis.  My point does not concern the literal meaning of the word.  My point was that Muslim leaders of the first 1300 years after the revealing of the Quran have further defined it to be literal war or armed conflict.  That has changed in the last 100 years probably because it is not a sound long term strategy to go around calling for armed conflict against anyone that is a non-believer.  It tends to unite the unbelievers against you.


I'm actually very glad that the majority of Muslims today see jihad as a personal struggle, despite the fact that this was different in the past. There seem to be significant differences between meccan and medinan suras. And the same can be said for the the Old and New Testament. The majority of Christians today don't interpret Deuteronomy 7 as a command to start genocide: "And when the LORD your God gives them over to you, and you defeat them; then you must utterly destroy them; you shall make no covenant with them, and show no mercy to them."

Non-militant Islamists are a minority and militant Islamists are a tiny minority. Ultra-conservative Christians are a minority and militant ultra-conservative Christians (killing abortion doctors) are a very tiny minority. But because both non-militant groups seem to be growing we have to remain watchful. Eternal vigilance is the price of freedom.

I think tolerant Christians, tolerant Muslims, tolerant Agnostics and tolerant Atheists share a common goal here.



Edited by Matt Browne - 21 November 2010 at 4:57am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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