Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

General Discussion
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : General Discussion
Message Icon Topic: 'Niqab Rage'(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Author Message
Gibbs
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 29 April 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 939
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 9:55am
I have to say Islamic law isn't compatible with national law-or having a religious law within a society that abides by secular law. For instance, most religious community leaders, especially Jewish and Muslim are dictated by men and if a woman "shames herself" by commiting adultery how do we know that the sexual biases of the men can give the woman a just trial?
 
Hence is why I favor the freedom to commit adultery instead of being punished for it. Adultery is a moral choice and a test of loyalty. I know I came in late but I just wanted to say that I disagree with the statement that Islamic law can be enacted within a secular society. Another example is Native Americans.
 
They have an exclusive society outside the United States culture and although they can act independent outside some U.S. laws they aren't totally immune to every U.S. law. Like a tribal Chief cannot execute his own form of tribal justice upon someone within his community for whatever reason. They still have to call the proper authorities.
IP IP Logged
abuayisha
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 1999
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 9:55am
Why obsess about, and fear face veiling when it is really a tiny minority of Muslim women.  What about the health, emotional, social..., for those priests and nuns who live celibate?  Are we to rant about dehumanization of a nuns life and extrapolate this to cast a shadow of fear and concern that all Christians are seeking a antiquated biblical lifestyle?  Are you 'Henny-penny; 'the sky is going to fall' when seeing how some orthodox Jew dress?  Fear not.  Muslims are by no means homogeneous.  We are as diverse as the rest of humanity. 
IP IP Logged
Gibbs
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 29 April 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 939
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 9:58am
Matt,
 
You brought up some good points.
 
My best guess as to why there isn't enough self-criticism in Muslim community maybe because the thought of self-criticism in the world's most "true faith" may reflect some fallibility in Islamic theology-sort of a trickle effect....Just my opinion


Edited by Gibbs - 18 November 2010 at 12:07pm
IP IP Logged
abuayisha
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 1999
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 10:15am
I'm curious, how are you to gauge self-criticism inside a Muslim community in order to know there isn't enough? 
IP IP Logged
Gibbs
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 29 April 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 939
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 12:10pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

I'm curious, how are you to gauge self-criticism inside a Muslim community in order to know there isn't enough? 
 
As I mentioned before Muslims are losing the media war. Remember this technological age most people get their information from either television or the internet. Everytime I turn my computer on, I'm more likely to see pictures of a suicide bomber blowing him or herself up yelling "Allahu Akbar" than a group of Muslims protesting the actions of Iran upon Muslim women. We can blame media bias but again, when referring to self-criticism it may happen in the muslim community but to those exposed to media everyday such as us the people doing the web surfing, it remains non-existent.
IP IP Logged
abuayisha
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 05 October 1999
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4221
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 1:26pm
Well Gibbs I am sure there is raging debate going on inside academia, religion, medicine, business, environment, etc., etc., however all is foundational, ie., how much on knows and cares about a given subject.  If I simply depend on PETA headlines to form an opinion regarding self-criticism and debate inside zoology, one would be woefully misinformed.  One the other hand, if I were a student of zoology or had good foundational information on its subject matter, when turning on my computer I'd likely know where look for pertinent insight.  The religion of Islam certainly goes beyond yelling of "Allahu Akbar" for those who know and care to know.
IP IP Logged
Gibbs
 
Guest Group
Guest Group


Joined: 29 April 2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 939
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 4:06pm
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well Gibbs I am sure there is raging debate going on inside academia, religion, medicine, business, environment, etc., etc., however all is foundational, ie., how much on knows and cares about a given subject.  If I simply depend on PETA headlines to form an opinion regarding self-criticism and debate inside zoology, one would be woefully misinformed.  One the other hand, if I were a student of zoology or had good foundational information on its subject matter, when turning on my computer I'd likely know where look for pertinent insight.  The religion of Islam certainly goes beyond yelling of "Allahu Akbar" for those who know and care to know.
 
That is a good analysis but that is exactly the problem, there is no analysis or reflection and discernment. The natural instinct of most is to believe what they see.
IP IP Logged
Chrysalis
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
bullet Posted: 18 November 2010 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

But this doesn't work when Muslims communities reject to apply self criticism and restrict their posts to being the victim, like in case of this niqab rage.


The word is "self-criticism" Matt. Not, "I'll be the one to tell you whats wrong with your community-criticism".

And like Abuayisha pointed out - how do you know to what extent there is criticism in the Muslim world? Since many automatically think of Saudi Arabia or Iran when Islam is talked about - naturally they assume that is the case. Islam is one of the few religions which has no clergy. Unlike Judaism & Christianity where the common educated man cannot question or engage in religion, and where religious matters are the domain of the clergy or rabbis. It has one of the most open religious policy formulation process.

Even on the blogosphere... muslims are involved in extensive critical analysis. We have TV shows like "The View" where all we discuss are religious laws and their applications/implementations. Since Muslim media is restricted to muslim majority countries and does not have a wide audience in the USA, people think it doesn't exist. Then there is the language barrier.... unlike Mainstream American media which has universal reach based on its content & language.

2 days ago I saw a you-tube video of a Scholar in Pakistan discussing terror tactics, suicide bombings & Jihad. While the answer was pretty much common sense, he explained it so nicely. I wish non-Muslims could see it too. Unfortunately there is that language barrier. However I am thinking of subtitling it... We need a subtitled Muslim channel on you-tube in response to that "Memri Tv" urgh. I'm working on it. Hopefully inshAllah that shall reflect how much critical analysis and WIDE range of though exists in the Muslim world.

I disagree with this French attacker and said so repeatedly. Do you disagree with the Saudi clergymen? I'm surprised that you haven't written anything about Hissa Hilal. Is it too dangerous to say anything to support her?


Even in the adulteress thread I questioned why the man wasn't mentioned in the news, and whether he was punished or not. Sure we don't make threads that say " I DETEST SO & SO" etc, but how do you know we DON'T talk about it or discuss it? Whether it is the subject on the dinner table or not? How do you know that TV channels in Pakistan or Lebanon are not extensively critical of such acts? Perhaps not Hissa Hilal but Mukhtaran Mai... names change. I am not aware of Hissa Hilal sorry, and if you mentioned her before I may not have come across the story.


What Hissa Hilal said about the situation in her country reminds us of the 7th century. To me it's a fact that a significant number of today's Muslims really want to copy the life 1400 years ago as described in the Quran and how the Prophet lived his life. This is what scares us.

Trust me, if men actually behaved the  way the Prophet did, we wouldn't have these problems. The problems occur when twisted minds try to come up with their own versions. 90% of the cases that we hear of are not even Islam, but some twisted cultural offshoot. But since the people involved are muslim - it automatically gets labeled as representative of Islam. Prophet Muhammad said, "The best amongst you is the one who is best to his wife". If a significant number of Muslims actually copied that, Muslim women would be the happiest women on earth. The problem is that Muslims "wanting" to implement something does not mean they actually did. There is a huge gap b/w the Muslim's current desire to practice Islam and actually doing it.

If we just focus on positive ties and common grounds, we won't solve the problems that exist. To most people in the West it's not okay to oppress women and tell them their testimony is only worth half.

To most Muslims it is not okay to oppress women either. And again, a woman's testimony is not "half". In Islam testimony is a serious matter that takes into consideration NUMEROUS aspects.  Unlike other societies "just anybody" cannot be a witness. Islamic Law takes into account the character, background, gender of a witness as well. There are occasions when a Muslim Woman's testimony would be superior to a man's and vice versa. This would require a detailed thread on its own.


And it's also not okay to wear niqabs and burqas in our countries (even when women want to do this voluntarily and aren't forced to do it).


Again, lets focus on positive grounds shall we? For me as a Muslim woman, I find it extremely oppressive & submissive when a non-muslim woman has to forego her family name and take the name of her husband after marriage. Or that her parents have to pay for her wedding. I find it offensive that many nonmuslim women have to dress a certain way, and "put themselves out" just to get a marriage partner or boyfriend. Just random examples there.

But I don't let my view of nonmuslim women get clouded because of that. And I don't go about criticizing them or their actions for the heck of it. If that is the norm of the society, fine. When I say we should focus on the positive, I don't just SAY it, I practice it to the best of my ability. I could choose to discuss the things about nonmuslims/westerners I don't like, or I could choose to discuss the positive aspects e.g. they are independent, ambitious etc. (so r muslim women).


We think that a face veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many would argue, because this is the problem of foolish, ignorant men, and they should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public (sorry, but to Western eyes it really looks this way).


You repeated the very same arguments you used in a separate thread, that I have already responded to. Regarding face signals/identity etc. No point in being repetitive.

So there is a serious problem with face veils and moderate Muslim women should come up with creative strategies to make this unfortunate tradition disappear.

With all due respect, you need to re-evaluate the priority and seriousness you are giving non-issues. Probably 2% of the Entire Muslim population even uses veil. We don't want to force our sisters to give up something they are comfortable with or they want to practice. We also don't force our sisters to wear the niqab. Or the hijab. 

Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society.

Rest assured they do.

To many of us a burqa symbolizes a mobile prison.

So you should not wear the burqa then.


Do you think there's common ground here? Respecting each other's cultures wherever we travel or choose to live?


Yes I think there is common ground here.

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 11 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com