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Message Icon Topic: 'Niqab Rage'(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 10:23pm
Matt Browne
Either conveniently avoided to respond or you agree on the points! Which is it?
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Kindly
 
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 2:12am
Hahaha, Sign*Reader you are so entertaining :)

Did your parents use the Muzlim man to scare you off being a bad boy, when you were a kid? " The Muzlim man is coming to get ya " Hahaha
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 2:16am
Kindly: Muzlim is a tongue in cheek, if you know what I mean?
Read my posts and then comment!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 November 2010 at 2:25am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 2:18am
What different does it make Muzlim Muslims Moslem Muzloom Muslmaan?
The way they have been fried in Iraq, Afpak, Palestine or Kashmir?


Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 November 2010 at 2:21am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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schmikbob
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 7:23am
By the way, Sign Reader.  Sorry I had you make you go off on one of your rants.  Bernard Lewis wrote "The Crisis of Islam" and not Bernard Shaw. 
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Matt Browne
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 9:08am
Lost my marbles? I don't engage in discussions in online forums that involve these kind of personal attacks while the moderators remain silent.



Edited by Matt Browne - 14 November 2010 at 9:08am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Sign*Reader
 
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bullet Posted: 14 November 2010 at 6:52pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

Lost my marbles? I don't engage in discussions in online forums that involve these kind of personal attacks while the moderators remain silent.

You also need to know staying within legal and decency limits of what you can advocate and what you can't!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 November 2010 at 7:21pm
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Matt Browne
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bullet Posted: 16 November 2010 at 7:27am
Sign Reader, I think your last comment outlines the problem. I'm not advocating anything here. I'm stating my opinion. I'm exercising my right to free thought. People have the right to agree or disagree with me. I don't resort to attacking individual users of this forum. I'm looking for ways how Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Agnostics, Atheists and so forth can live together in peace. I tolerate all tolerant religions and tolerant world views. I don't tolerate intolerance, but I'm always eager to look for the root causes that might have led people to show intolerant behavior.

Although I'm a Christian, I'm very critical about some forms of Christianity. I'm also very critical about what some Christians have done or said over the past 2000 years. I can be critical about Christianity and no Christian will threaten to kill me. Some might disagree and argue, but that's it. Self criticism has allowed Christianity to evolve. Today, almost all of the most successful countries on our planet do have a Christian majority. Almost all of the most important discoveries and inventions over the past 300 years were made by Christians, Jews or Atheists. That's a fact and the question is why this is so.

I think it has to do with the Age of Enlightenment and the notion of evolving religions. And the idea that freedom of religion promotes freedom of thought, creativity and innovation. A Christian can become a Muslim or an Agnostic or an Atheist. Priests might not like it, but there are no death threats because of this. It's a matter of individual choice. And because of this spirit, people invent cars and space shuttles and the world wide web or discover quantum mechanics. This spirit will allows us to deal with the problems of the 21st century which includes the climate crisis, energy and resource crisis. How can the Earth accommodate 9 billion people in 2050? How can we achieve fairness?

I have great respect for Muslims. I appreciate all tolerant forms of Islam. This is why I joined this forum. Mutual understanding is key. I want to learn. Discussions are the fuel of progress. But this can involve criticism. I'm eager to hear criticism because it gives me the chance to challenge my assumptions. You can criticize me. What I don't accept are personal attacks and words like 'you punk' or 'losing your marbles'.

This thread is about the 'niqab rage'. Why was this French woman so angry? To me telling her that her behavior is unacceptable is not good enough. What are the circumstances that lead to such situations. I've been thinking about this a lot. I have found some answers, but I don't know whether they are the right answers. Think of them as hypotheses. Be critical.

So what's going on in America and Europe? I think it has to do how people perceive Islam and Muslim communities. Of course there are a lot of differences, but for the sake of this argument allow me to define three groups called one, two and three (knowing well that this isn't completely accurate).

Origin of the Quran

1) Muslims who know for a fact that every sentence in the Quran is the word of God (relayed to the Prophet by an angel) and who think that all other religions are wrong. The world consists of Muslims and infidels.

2) Muslims who believe that God is the ultimate origin of the Quran, but who also know there's no way to verify this by some method available to humans. These Muslims distinguish between facts and beliefs. They know that other religions are in a similar situation.

3) Muslims who know that the Quran was written by humans based on what the Prophet had said over a course of 22 years. These Muslims believe that the Prophet was inspired by God, but they also think that there are different ways to find God and be a good human. There are multiple spiritual truths and therefore different religions can coexist peacefully.

Religious life

1) Muslims who think that every Muslim must follow all rules of Islam. Peer pressure is justified when some Muslims only obey some rules. Women have to obey the men in charge of them.

2) Muslims who think that every Muslim should follow all rules of Islam, but peer pressure is not justified.

3) Muslims who respect the individual decision of every Muslim how to live his life. Dogmas can change over time.

State and religion

1) Religious laws rank over secular laws.

2) It depends whether secular laws rank over religious laws.

3) Secular laws rank over religious laws.


So back to the question of what's going on in America and Europe? I believe most Americans and Europeans think that the vast majority of Muslims including the ones who chose to live in America or Europe belong to group number one (as outlined above). A minority might belong to group number two and only a tiny minority belongs to number three.

And because this seems to be the case, many Christians, Agnostics and Atheists are afraid or resentful. Islam means submission and they are afraid that Muslims will gradually increase the pressure, because infidels have to submit to Islam or risk getting killed. There are many verses in the Quran involving this explicit command made by Allah.

So people here are scared.

Especially the woman who have fought so hard for equal rights. We fear that we might lose all the freedom we enjoy and which allows us to be creative and innovative individuals. We fear that the progress that has been made over the past hundreds of year will slowly erode and we are all headed back toward the 7th century. We also fear that the minority of Muslims belonging to groups number two and three will lose their fight against group number one. Because of all the threats ade by people from group number one. Freedom of expression can be dangerous.

So is there hope? I think there is. Some Muslims are extremely brave, especially women. I think it will depend on Muslim women whether we'll see progress or stagnation. A good example is a Saudi woman named Hissa Hilal. She is very brave. I think she's a hero, capable of inspiring more young Muslims who wish to live in a modern world instead of a dark ages world full of restrictions and fear. In case you haven't heard the story, here's an article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/22/hissa-hilal-saudi-woman-b_n_508778.html

Hissa Hilal, only her eyes visible through her black veil, delivered a blistering poem against Muslim preachers "who sit in the position of power" but are "frightening" people with their fatwas, or religious edicts, and "preying like a wolf" on those seeking peace. Her poem got loud cheers from the audience and won her a place in the competition's finals, to be aired on Wednesday. It also brought her death threats, posted on several Islamic militant Web sites.

"My poetry has always been provocative," she told The Associated Press in an interview. "It's a way to express myself and give voice to Arab women, silenced by those who have hijacked our culture and our religion."

Her poem was seen as a response to Sheik Abdul-Rahman al-Barrak, a prominent cleric in Saudi Arabia who recently issued a fatwa saying those who call for the mingling of men and women should be considered infidels, punishable by death. But more broadly, it was seen as addressing any of many hard-line clerics in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere in the region who hold a wide influence through television programs, university positions or Web sites.

Hilal's 15-verse poem was in a form known as Nabati, native to nomadic tribes of the Arabian Peninsula. She criticized extremism that she told AP is "creeping into our society" through fatwas.

"I have seen evil in the eyes of fatwas, at a time when the permitted is being twisted into the forbidden," she said in the poem. She called such edicts "a monster that emerged from its hiding place" whenever "the veil is lifted from the face of truth."

She described hard-line clerics as "vicious in voice, barbaric, angry and blind, wearing death as a robe cinched with a belt," in an apparent reference to suicide bombers' explosives belts.

The three judges gave her the highest marks for her performance, praising her for addressing a controversial topic. That, plus voting from the 2,000 people in the audience and text messages from viewers, put her through to the final round.

"Hissa Hilal is a courageous poet," said al-Amimi. "She expressed her opinion against the kind of fatwas that affect people's lives and raised an alarm against these ad hoc fatwas coming from certain scholars who are inciting extremism."


A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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