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schmikbob
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bullet Posted: 10 November 2010 at 9:52pm
Oh come on, Leviticus, really??  You're going to go back to the Old Testament.
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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 10 November 2010 at 10:17pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

Oh come on, Leviticus, really??  You're going to go back to the Old Testament.


Ofcourse many modern day Christians don't really obey/practice the old testament anymore. I was reading an article on adultery in Christianity and the author made a telling statement:

"The different Christian views are whether you are a legalist like the Pharisees and look to the letter of the law, or do you look to the example of Christ of love over legalism."

implying - such laws are a part of Christianity, except that they are not followed anymore.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Matt Browne
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 7:37am
We need 21st century thinking to deal with 21st century challenges. We don't want people who seem stuck in 7th century thinking have any political power in Europe.

What exactly is 21st century thinking? Thinking is a relative term. And what is 7th century thinking?


I'll give you an example. Dogs are unclean animals. This is 7th century thinking. Dogs are clean animals. They can help rescue Earthquake survivors. They can help blind people live a better life. This is 21st century thinking.

What this lady did by attacking a woman wearing a niqab (that to her represented 'islamism' whatever that is) ; will that be considered 21st century thinking or 7th century thinking ?


What this lady attacking a woman did was 7th century thinking. Or 11th century thinking. We have to ask the question, What could be the root cause of such unacceptable behavior? This explains my 'but'.

Sharia law has no place in Europe.

Says you. Shariah law has a place anywhere in the world as long as there are muslims in that community who want to practice it. It should not be a concern for Non-Muslims since it does not infringe on their rights or interests in anyway. And that applies to any sort of religious law. Whether it be Christian or Judaic law. If a community wants to practice a certain code that does not infringe the rights of others... they have a right to, and should.


Says the majority of people electing their lawmakers. No Muslim community anywhere has a right to practice laws that are in violation of laws mandated by lawmakers. Your outrageous claim based on Islamist ideology (political Islam) is one of the reason why many Europeans are worried. These claims are a gross violation of our values that we hold dear. We won't give up these values.



Edited by Matt Browne - 13 November 2010 at 7:40am
A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 7:48am
Originally posted by abuayisha


 
Well, let's talk "niceties" shall we; what about enhanced coercive interrogation, stress positions, special renditions, precision bombing, collateral damage, smart bombs, and Operation Iraqi Freedom.


Crimes committed by Western governments cannot be used as an excuse for crimes committed by Islamist governments. Applying the death penalty for Muslims who convert to Christianity is a crime. We should condemn all crimes.
The Iraq war was illegal and not mandated by the UN. Many European countries opposed it.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Matt Browne
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Kindly

I am amazed by how non-Muslims sign up to this forum, with seemingly one purpose, which is polluting the atmosphere.
It seems that many of the non-Muslims feel ill at ease when we Muslims are being civil and are able to have productive and peaceful conversation.


Don't confuse criticism with attacks. And trying to divide the world into Muslims and "Non-Muslims" is one of the reasons we got so many problems. Try to recognize the people who are contributing.

A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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schmikbob
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 8:15am

Well done Matt Browne.  I totally agree.  Have you read Bernard Shaw's "The Crisis of Islam"? 

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Chrysalis
 
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Matt Browne

We need 21st century thinking to deal with 21st century challenges. We don't want people who seem stuck in 7th century thinking have any political power in Europe.

What exactly is 21st century thinking? Thinking is a relative term. And what is 7th century thinking?


I'll give you an example. Dogs are unclean animals. This is 7th century thinking. Dogs are clean animals. They can help rescue Earthquake survivors. They can help blind people live a better life. This is 21st century thinking.


Ever think that maybe your understanding/knowledge of Islam and Muslims is the same as the awareness non-muslims had in the 7th Century?

Dogs in Islam is just another issue that many Non-Muslim don't know the details about. As for physical cleanliness, (and I am an animal lover myself, gotten into numerous discussions with my parents over pets) but animals are not 'clean'. Anybody who thinks that Humans and Animals are on the same hygienic level is exaggerating a tad bit.

There is no restriction in Islam to keeping working dogs, to help in earthquakes, guide blind people etc. Hadith actually says its okay to keep dogs that help humans. I posted a UK fatwa some time ago that said it was okay for a blind boy to bring his guide dog to the mosque.

Your thinking however IS 7th Century thinking. You think that your likes/dislikes/culture is superior to that of another community.


What this lady attacking a woman did was 7th century thinking. Or 11th century thinking. We have to ask the question, What could be the root cause of such unacceptable behavior? This explains my 'but'.


Have you asked similar questions on behalf of Muslims? or those you term terrorists? Your 'but' seems like you're trying to justify her action.


Says the majority of people electing their lawmakers.


If the majority rules against Shariah, why are you so concerned? Then that is a non-issue. However if there are Muslims living in a sizeable number in any part of the world, including Europe - and they want to pursue laws that allow for their beliefs. Why not? They can pursue thatthrough legal means.

 
Your outrageous claim based on Islamist ideology (political Islam) is one of the reason why many Europeans are worried.


These claims are based on individual freedom and rights. Recently the US Army recruited a Sikh soldier, and let him keep a beard - which they don't allow usually. Muslims expect similar attitudes that's all. You and people like you have have blown things out of proportion. "Political Islam" !!!

These claims are a gross violation of our values that we hold dear. We won't give up these values. 


Again - an example of 7th Century thinking. My culture/values are better and more important than yours. Who is asking you to give up your values? If a woman wants to wear a veil - how does that effect YOUR values? Shouldn't she have a right to practice her values as well? No matter where she goes? People who don't like the way others dress/live can solve that by minding their own biz.


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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bullet Posted: 13 November 2010 at 10:18pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

Well done Matt Browne.  I totally agree.  Have you read Bernard Shaw's "The Crisis of Islam"? 

Well done what? You know very well you do what the woman did in US and you have a law suit over your head! Matt has lost his marbles by living in  Germany ( Brown shirt effectWink)
Shaw in this discussion...Here is his the height of his cynicism!
"Americans adore me and will go on adoring me until I say something nice about them."
His talking about Crises of Islam is as illogical as it gets! If the Muzlim people becoming fat, dumb and happy, it would Muzlims fault not the Islam's...
If you default by not following the building code and then get injured when it collapses during a quack...Is it your fault or the code's fault?

See the logic?

The Muzlims are in crises for defaulting on their Islam and got run over by the western imperialism and I guess deservedly so ...It is an on going phenomena try what you may the western imperial power is dying and it is its last throws...Look at Cameron or Obama's last visit to China and take lessons...nothing last for ever! Obama was on the Asian tour to sell American commercial and military stuff at any terms and Hu Jintao was in Paris to spread around his largess at his terms! It would be totally st.upid for the west going broke beating the dead people! May be that is what is in the cards! oh well keep it up no one listens to the people in debt!

And then saw guess who was talking about that lost soul Mr. GB!

October 6, 2010 - 16:04 ET


GLENN: Here is George Bernard Shaw, probably the most famous Fabian socialist, what we would call a progressive here in America.

SHAW: You must all know half a dozen people at least who are no use in this world, who are more trouble than they are worth. Just put them there and say Sir, or Madam, now will you be kind enough to justify your existence? If you can't justify your existence, if you're not pulling your weight, and since you won't, if you're not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more, then, clearly, we cannot use the organizations of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive, because your life does not benefit us and it can't be of very much use to yourself.
He was one the very sick intellectuals that west is littered with I am sorry I can name a dozen if you like...

I don't think he was just antIslam; he was just anti religion all around didn't matter true or otherwise...You know what, in old times Islam was mostly among the non Caucasians so imperialist found it lot convenient to kick the brown fellas around when they were  down! I think the game is changing!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 14 November 2010 at 12:16am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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