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Kindly
 
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 8:40am
I am amazed by how non-Muslims sign up to this forum, with seemingly one purpose, which is polluting the atmosphere.
It seems that many of the non-Muslims feel ill at ease when we Muslims are being civil and are able to have productive and peaceful conversation.
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schmikbob
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 8:54am
Chrysalis, If you have ever sat through or read through transcripts of divorce proceedings as a result of infidelity you would absolutely know that the party that committed adultery will lose and suffer financially and with regards to visitation rights with children.  I would say that those are both definitive legal repercussions.  Also, in the US military, adultery is a court martial offense.
 
Next, I could care less if you don't like my "tone".  "don't couch your answer with any niceties" means don't suger coat your answer so as not to offend my sensibilities.  You are choosing to be offended by something that doesn't exist.
 
Lastly, Chrysalis, you have written "I don't know why some people get so sensitive when other members participate in a public thread. This is a public thread/forum. Anyone can quote/comment whatever they wish. I for one appreciate other members chipping in. Also is the purpose of your post to get an answer from Chrysalis - or simply get an answer to your question? If it is the latter, then it should not matter who responds"  I also have no problem when other people comment.  However when people like abuayisha and Sign Reader comment (as in this case) they have a tendency to get completely off topic and post non-relavent anti everyone screeds.  
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Hayfa
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 11:59am
Chrysalis, If you have ever sat through or read through transcripts of divorce proceedings as a result of infidelity you would absolutely know that the party that committed adultery will lose and suffer financially and with regards to visitation rights with children.  I would say that those are both definitive legal repercussions.

Yes buy how many people are throw in jail??? Come on now... its not like, even in some states if its illegal anyone is arrested. What you cite has nothing to do with the fact that the government chooses to say that only husband -wife is legal, though this is changing with gay marriage and I suspect plural marriages will come about if people choose to engage. But where it is against the  law to commit adultery it s not enforced.

Apostasy: do you even know the conditions in an Islamic state- Islamic state it would be to punish anyone for this offense? Its basically you have to leave Islam and act upon the state.. its called acting in a treasonous manner. We have treason laws. Every STATE does.

Bob: there is different laws for Muslim living in a non-Muslim lands. There are books of Fiqh written on this issue.

If you wish to listen to lectures on it you could try this:
http://www.sandalaproductions.com/Products/127-sacred-law-in-secular-lands-volume-1.aspx

So apostasy is a non-issue as we, who live in a nonMuslim land, are not living in a Islamic state.


Edited by Hayfa - 09 November 2010 at 12:01pm
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 12:17pm
@Hayfa


Great post!
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schmikbob
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 3:11pm
Who says adultery is or should be the business of the government?  As long as divorce law discourages adultery monetarily and with regards to custody of children that's good enough for the majority of people.  Do you feel that it is appropriate for someone to be tossed in jail for adultery?
 
Are you are saying that in Iran or Saudi Arabia, for example, it would be fine for someone to be a practicing member of Islam, then decide it was a bunch of hogwash,and decide to practice Hinduism or Christianity instead and the state would have no position on this. 
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 5:59pm
schmikbob

"Do you feel that it is appropriate for someone to be tossed in jail for adultery?"

Well that statement is the whole root of the argument adultery vs plural marriage, you won't get thrown in jail for adultery yet, practicing plural marriage(a potential antidote to adultery) you will get thrown in jail

 "Are you are saying that in Iran or Saudi Arabia, for example, it would be fine for someone to be a practicing member of Islam, then decide it was a bunch of hogwash,and decide to practice Hinduism or Christianity instead and the state would have no position on this. "

In her response Hayfa was addressing your original statement.

You had originally said "it sounds to me as though you think Islamic Law should supersede a nations laws"

..."do you feel that apostates should be dealt with according to Islamic Law?

Hayfa's response was based on the assumption you were still speaking about dealing with apostates in a non-Islamic country.


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Kindly
 
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 6:30pm
Polygamy is not intended as a common practice and in the vast majority of cases there is no necessity for that step, therefore I do not mind it being forbidden in national law. Self governance has not been successful in this matter. Men often practice polygamy for selfish reasons. When/if the need for polygamy arises, this circumstances will be reminiscent of a state of emergency, in which case, for us Muslims Islamic practice will super-cede national law.

Let it be clear. Islamic rules will always be of higher priority than any legislation of man. However we do have an obligation to follow the laws of the country we reside, as long as they do not dictate unislamic practice. Therefore we try to, first and foremost, find a compromise, before we consider breaking the laws of our hosting nation.
Before jumping to conclusions about our loyalty, consider how many unlawful acts Muslims commit in their daily activities. Prayer, fasting, charity, interest free banking activity, consuming halal food, wearing Islamic garments. None of these are illegal acts.
Btw. Judaism allows polygamy as well ("If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights" Exodus 21:10")

Lastly, I do feel that it would be advantageous if national laws regulated adultery as well as polygamy. Adultery does not benefit any one in society, on the contrary, it does harm on spouses and children, and arguably on the adulterers themselves.
The vows one takes when getting married in a Christian church or before a civil entity (I, ____, take you, ____, to be my (husband/wife). I promise to be true to you in good times and in bad) are quite reminiscent of those takes before getting on the stand in court (swear to tell the truth, the whole trust...), which are a felony to break. Only natural that the pledge before the state and/or God, should be paralleled with those before the court and/or God.
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bullet Posted: 09 November 2010 at 6:35pm
Originally posted by schmikbob

Who says adultery is or should be the business of the government? 
 
Who says spanking should be the business of government?
Seems to me most people haven't a problem with moral laws such as murder and theft (thou shall not...), but when it comes to sexuality it shouldn't be government business.
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