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Douggg
 
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Quote Douggg Replybullet Topic: Isaiah 53
    Posted: 23 July 2010 at 11:29pm
Who, according to muslims, is Isaiah 53 talking about?

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.


Edited by Douggg - 24 July 2010 at 5:07am
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 July 2010 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by Douggg

Who, according to muslims, is Isaiah 53 talking about?

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.


Well, if we are going to look at Isaiah 53, wouldn't it make sense to look at the whole chapter, instead of picking certain verses?  Of course, what some people don't know is that the chapter actually begins as a part of Chapter 52, and it offers some interesting details about this "suffering servant":

 14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:


When was Jesus' "...visage so marred more than any man"?  Continuing into Chapter 53:

2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

Since when did Jesus (pbuh) have "no form [or] comeliness"?  He had the form of a human, did he not?

 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Since when was Jesus "despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows..."?  Jesus is one of the most beloved men in history, alongside Moses and Muhammad (pbut)!  When did people hide their faces from him?  Even during his life, he was beloved by many people. 

 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.


When did Jesus not say anything during his oppression?  The Gospels tell us that he had a lot to say during his trial and subsequent "execution". 

 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Since when was Jesus (pbuh) buried with the "wicked".  According to the Gospels, he was buried in an empty tomb. 

Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 25 July 2010 at 3:06am
Originally posted by islamispeace


Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.


Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.

1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.

2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.




Edited by Douggg - 25 July 2010 at 11:27am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2010 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by islamispeace


Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.


Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.

1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.

2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.




LOL Oh come on Douggie!  Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed.  Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not.  People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest. 

Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked."  This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb.  Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus.  For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.   
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 26 July 2010 at 10:07pm
Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by islamispeace


Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.


Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.

1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.

2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.




LOL Oh come on Douggie!  Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed.  Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not.  People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest. 

Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked."  This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb.  Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus.  For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.   


Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.

Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person?    That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.

Doug L.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2010 at 2:11pm
Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by islamispeace

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by islamispeace


Conclusion:  Looking at the chapter in context, we can be reasonably sure that it was not referring to Jesus (pbuh).  To answer's Douggie's question, we can't really say who this chapter is referring to, if anyone at all.  It was certainly not Muhammad (pbuh) in this case.  If we listen to the Jews, the "suffering servant" is the nation of Israel.  It is also possible that it is referring to an known historical figure centuries before Jesus (pbuh).  But what is clear is that it is certainly not referring to Jesus.


Isaiah 53 presents big problems for Islam.

1.  The person in Isaiah 53 dies and is buried - which is the real reason muslims can't admit that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus... because islam says God took Jesus to paradise without him dying.

2.  The person in Isaiah 53 bears the sins of all, which of course is Jesus, but muslims can't admit that - nonetheless, islam still has a problem because islam says other peoples' sins can't be born by another.   Yet read what Isaiah 53:6 says.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Doug L.




LOL Oh come on Douggie!  Your statements are pure nonsense as I already showed.  Isaiah 53 presents no problems for Islam, but it does present problems for Christians, who want to believe that it refers to Jesus (pbuh), when it clearly does not.  People like you only look at certain verses, out of context, and ignore the rest. 

Isaiah 53 presents a problem for the Christians because even though it says that the "suffering servant" was buried, it also says that he or it was buried "with the wicked."  This can't be referring to Jesus as he was buried alone in an empty tomb.  Christians have no response to this obvious problem, but choose to play the game of denial, insisting that Isaiah 53 is still talking about Jesus.  For the rest of us, however, the truth stands clear from error.   


Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.

Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person?    That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.

Doug L.


That's exactly what it is! LOL  A coincidence!  You want us to concentrate on one out of context verse, as if it proves that the suffering servant is Jesus (pbuh).  The reality is that when read in context, it is obviously not talking about Jesus.  You keep ignoring the fundamental problem facing the Christian theory, which is that when read in context, the chapter simply does not fit with the Gospel accounts of Jesus.  Jesus was not buried with the wicked.  He was buried alone in an empty tomb.  Once you get through your head, you will realize that Isaiah 53 cannot be talking about Jesus as he is presented in the New Testament.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Douggg Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2010 at 3:28pm
Originally posted by islamispeace


Oh yeah, like it is just by coincidence that the whole new testament theme is centered around Jesus dying for our sins and that Isaiah 53 is about someone who God lays all of our iniquities on him.

Even so, your god allah is going to lay all of your iniquities, as well as everyone else's, on some other person?    That's where Islam has a big time fundamental theological problem even if you guys reject that it is Jesus.

Doug L.


That's exactly what it is! LOL  A coincidence!  You want us to concentrate on one out of context verse, as if it proves that the suffering servant is Jesus (pbuh).  The reality is that when read in context, it is obviously not talking about Jesus.  You keep ignoring the fundamental problem facing the Christian theory, which is that when read in context, the chapter simply does not fit with the Gospel accounts of Jesus.  Jesus was not buried with the wicked.  He was buried alone in an empty tomb.  Once you get through your head, you will realize that Isaiah 53 cannot be talking about Jesus as he is presented in the New Testament.


I haven't even responded to your challenges regarding the wicked and rich because I wanted you see that Islam is a false religion no matter who the person in Isaiah 53 is.    Islam has no provision for your god allah to lay all the sins of everyone else on that one person in Isaiah 53.   Which makes Islam a false religion.     And doubly false because that person is Jesus and Islam says that Jesus didn't die.

Why do you think that there is so much emphasis in Islam that Jesus didn't die on the cross?  In who's interest would that be? 

Even so, I don't know why you think that Jesus made his grave with the wicked and the rich in his death is a problem for Christians.  

Joseph of Arimathaea, a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:47), he himself laid Jesus in his own new tomb.

Joseph was rich, as it was explicitly says in Matthew 27:47.      Jesus died between two thiefs.

We aren't told either way in the new testament, whether the location of Joseph's tomb was in an area where the wicked (who were also rich) had their tombs or burial chambers as well.    So that is not a proof that the person in Isaiah 53 was not Jesus.  

Isaiah 53 doesn't mean that Jesus had to be buried in a tomb along with someone else in the same tomb.   It is the area where the tomb was located, and that Jesus died among two thieves, that fulfilled the prophecy.

Doug L.



Edited by Douggg - 27 July 2010 at 4:18pm
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2010 at 2:22pm
I haven't even responded to your challenges regarding the wicked and rich because I wanted you see that Islam is a false religion no matter who the person in Isaiah 53 is.    Islam has no provision for your god allah to lay all the sins of everyone else on that one person in Isaiah 53.   Which makes Islam a false religion.     And doubly false because that person is Jesus and Islam says that Jesus didn't die.


That is of course a ridiculous assumption because you have not demonstrated that the chapter is even talking about a person, let alone Jesus.  So how does that make Islam a false religion?

Why do you think that there is so much emphasis in Islam that Jesus didn't die on the cross?  In who's interest would that be?
 

LOL It would be in the interest of truth, obviously.  It would be in the interest of those billions of souls which have been deceived into believing that they are "saved" because an innocent Jewish man was nailed to a cross. 

Even so, I don't know why you think that Jesus made his grave with the wicked and the rich in his death is a problem for Christians. 


Um, because that is what Isaiah 53 says about the "suffering servant"?  Duh!

Joseph of Arimathaea, a disciple of Jesus (Matthew 27:47), he himself laid Jesus in his own new tomb.

Joseph was rich, as it was explicitly says in Matthew 27:47.      Jesus died between two thiefs.


Jesus (pbuh) dying between two thieves is not a fulfillment of Isaiah 53 which says that the servant would make his grave with the wicked, meaning he will be buried with the wicked.  In fact, the chapter says that the servant would die with the rich.  So, if Jesus had been crucified between two rich men and then buried in a tomb of criminals or sinners, than it would be a fulfillment of the chapter.  But, this is not what happened, according to the Gospels.  Therefore, Isaiah 53 is not talking about Jesus.

We aren't told either way in the new testament, whether the location of Joseph's tomb was in an area where the wicked (who were also rich) had their tombs or burial chambers as well.    So that is not a proof that the person in Isaiah 53 was not Jesus.


Well, then not enough information is given by the NT to say with 100% certainty that Isaiah 53 is talking about Jesus.  This is a matter of grave importance and one which cannot be glossed over by blind faith.    See, Douggie, I am not going to believe you just because you blindly believe what your preachers have told you.  I use my God-given reason and the God-given Quran to distinguish truth from falsehood.  The ramblings of some "the end is near" nut are not going to convince me.   

Isaiah 53 doesn't mean that Jesus had to be buried in a tomb along with someone else in the same tomb.   It is the area where the tomb was located, and that Jesus died among two thieves, that fulfilled the prophecy.


Isaiah 53 says that the servant would die with the rich.  Therefore, either it is a false prophecy or the Gospel accounts of Jesus' crucifixion are wrong.  Either way, it is problem for Christians, not Muslims! Big%20smile
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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