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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Topic: nico
    Posted: 30 July 2005 at 7:50pm

I am well aware of the Unocal connection, with the Natural Gas pipeline leading to the Indian Market from the ample supplies in Turkestan. But that really doesn't explain anything, explain why would the US want to invade a country who prior to 9/11 was even supported with American aid? Why would they present any problems? Secondly the Taliban gave Afghanistan stability, exactly what the US would have wanted for the NG pipeline...so why would the US invade the country knowing it would lead to some form of anarchy to put the pipeline on hold for that much longer?

Lol talk about skewing the perspective. See, the taliban DID NOT WANT the pipeline,and as working leaders of the country that is their good right. so naturally they became a problem, or a threat as its called in American new speak.

Thirdly you forget that no matter what alterior motives there were, the US invaded Afghanistan only after they had given the regime a chance to save itself. So you are still lacking motive...

Safe itself from what. what is it that the taliban did?

Do you actually believe the Taliban?

a long way down thel ine i do, we had a fruitfull releationship with them, wich saved, and ensured the lifes of thousand of children.

Whom here is the one with the complex?

whos talking about complexes mate? i wansnt. was that a freudan slip?

Surely it is not I. The Taliban destroyed the Opium crop yes,

yes

and it did so with US assistance even financial assistance,

no

so again you are proving that the Taliban were more US allies then foes, so again why would the US want to get rid of them?

becasue they didnt want the pipeline to cross the country

I am not so naive to believe the US invaded Afghanistan based on "human rights",

well atleast that is something.

but I do believe that the US invadedTaliban Afghanistan because of the US perceived it as a threat to her national security,

How? its one of the poorest country in the world, and had been at constant internal conflict untill the taliban took over.

and that war was justified by all norms of war. You have yet to show me how someone of sound mind and body can even BEGIN to compare Afghanistan with Iraq.

No it wasnt. so youre calling me an idiot, because you dont know your elbow from your arse? fine.

Well lets see OBL had basses in Afghanistan, he was spotted in Afghanistan, he supported Mullah Omar as a "true leader" of Islam. Chances are MORE likely then not he was in Afghanistan and it is reported he was spotted in Tora Bora in 2002, which is located in Afghanistan. Tell me where he could have possibly been prior to 9.11 as no Islamic nation would be crazy enough to take him.

we even heard rumors that he hid here in Denmark, and had been seen by several people lol. he could have been anywhere, and that is completely off the point. The cluster bombings of civil cities had nothing to do with osama. Oh you didnt hear about those? well we saw them, because several of our people was there cleaning up the mess. 

Surely he may say thank you now, but the difference btwn the Taliban and the US is this. The Taliban destroyed the crop and offered no real alterantive form of income, thus famine and starvation were common or would have been.

the taliban never had the chance, they where removed because they where a threat to the pipeline project. They had a lot of good plans brewing for the country, plans that the western press ofcourse said nothing about. However, they wanted to sort the problems at its roots first. and then start over little by little, but the fact are, NOBODY came to their aid with the projects, after they refused the pipeline.

The US is trying to destroy the crop but is also trying to give these people some form of income to stop them from joining the insurgency, and to develop the economy. So your attempts are failing.

could you explain how they are doing this, because we havent seen it at all. what we have seen is a few bags of rice handed out, and the reemerging of opium on an ever larger scale than ever before.

The US "brutally" attacked Afghanistan?

yes they did 

Obviously they do not know what brutally means...if you want to see brutality look at teh Soviet invasion of the country where whole villages were destroyed for having suspected connections to the Mujahedin.

yeah history repeating itself

i guess someone here sneezed real hard

War is innately horrid, but to say the US actions are brutal is a bit much, that isn't to say the US has been perfect but it is not by historical standards brutal.

You havent been there, we have. aswell as many other conflict zones in the world. this was brutal, and you can like it or not.

Do not think I am a pro-Bushie, I hate Bush, I hate Republicans/Conservatives. but I also hate people who manipulate words and facts to fit their own interpretation of the facts.

Go out to the bathroom and look in the mirror. Learn to love that person anyway. 

Point is that Washington didn't attack the state of Afghanistan it attacked a rogue political force in the country...think about it.

 

yes they really look blood thirsty, especially that little guy in the last picture. im sure he had an AK47 in his tent. Did they get hold of this rogue political force? did they get their oil pipeline? think about it!

I agree with this assesment, yes the US created OBL, Al Qaeda,and fostered the growth of Extremist Islamist ideology in the 80's. But the US is now trying to destroy the monster it created...also why use the quote from the economist if it contradicts what you have been saying this whole time: "the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." ? Explain this lapse of jugdement.

I dont have to agree to anything an articel say. I have long ago accepted that all western media distorts the agenda beyond reckognition. But dont take my word for it, go and see for yourself. 

And besides that, that just not good enough that its now trying to detroy the monster it created, because it isnt. We are talking about the most mighty force in the face of the planet. the strongest force ever known to man. If they wanted to end Al'Queda, it was gone. But as of now, it serves a larger purpose still.

Wemen...not sure what they are...

Females. Im sorry, english is but one of 6 languages that i speak, and write, so unfortunally as it is the 3rd or 4th that i learned, i cannot master all of them, but my own.

but the US isn't attacking Afghani's are they?

maybe not, but they are the ones dying.

In WWII for instance the US bombed Nazi Germany it killed innocent people, but since they killed innocent people they weren't defending themselves?

its a different situation. Germany declared war on the world so to speak. Afghanistan may or may not have hosted a "rogue political force" at the time. So wich is it, make up your mind. Did afghanistan pose a threat to the US? if so, how?

That's ur logic...so in order for a nation to defend itself it must not kill one innocent person? I don't know what you think war is...but it isn't pretty.

im well aware, i have experienced my share. And no thats not what im saying, just read what i said again, as many times as you need. You are comparing apples and oranges. or rather. you are comparing a handgun to a 50pound hautzwitzer cannon. 

We don't know his fate, maybe he is dead. To me OBL is irrelevant now has his organization is much bigger then himself.

thats not why they entered afghanistan, and you know it. just dig up archived news feeds from back then. they where looking for bin ladin so HE could be brought to justice, that was the aim to begin with. But as aways the story change as needed. Iraq is a brilliant example

he has wmds...uhm...he has gas (that we sold him)...uhm...he has...ehh....he...uhm...hes a bad man!

Did it build the pipeline?

yes it did, the bombs werent even stopped when they started.

Secondly did the US defend itself, in Afghanistan yes to an extent in Iraq she did the opposite.

??? how was afghanistan a threat?

I know what I am talking about...I question if your sane.

no you dont, you are absolutely clueless.

I never said the Northern Alliance was good did I?

no you didnt, my bad :)

Secondly I am aware that most of the NA was Uzbek, Turkmen tribal members who lived in the Kush controlling 10% of the land. But they were the internationally recognized govt of Afghanistan and their wishes were recognized as the wishes of the people of Afghanistan,

but it wasnt the wish of the people of afghanistan, not any we talked to. And that is what gave room to tb

maybe it is YOU whom should learn not to underestimate others.

i dont where did you get this idea from?

[quuote]Explain this one...considering the US isn't stealing anything in Afghanistan as there is nothing to steal. [/quote]

the soveriegn right of the land. the right to say no to international coorporations invading in the name of the holy capitalism.

Genius did the Taliban ask teh people of Afghanistan to be rulers of the state? No, so stop the hypocrisy.

no it was the other way around, and here is what really happened. People where so fed up with being attacked by nomad tribes and warmongers. wemen where tired of being raped, and tired of having their children stolen by human traders.  They where sick and tired of a givernment more interrested in own gain at the expense of all. and that is what gave rise to the taliban. How do i know? we where there :)

My firend your overt ignorance is shocking....sorry to say. Learn history then talk to me.

My firend your overt ignorance is shocking....sorry to say. Learn reality then talk to me. btw...i think fox news is on.

Peace

Noah

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nico
 
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2005 at 11:11am

Lol talk about skewing the perspective. See, the taliban DID NOT WANT the pipeline,and as working leaders of the country that is their good right. so naturally they became a problem, or a threat as its called in American new speak.

Ok show me quotes from accredited sources to support this assertion that the Taliban didn't want it. Secondly the US had enough money and power to sway the Taliban, and Pakistan to get their way. So I don't see why the US would invade Afghanistan soley on the premise of a pipeline, its absolutely ridiculous as the US had much greater weapons ($$$) available to get the Taliban to get on board, anyone can be bought and the Taliban showed that when they accepted US aid. I don't like the US all that much either, but I don't like it when people start making these base conspiracy theories with no evidence to actually back them up. Also to show how much YOU DON'T KNOW:

During the mid-1990s, Unocal had pursued a possible natural gas pipeline from Turkmenistan's Dauletabad-Donmez gas basin via Afghanistan to Pakistan, but pulled out after the U.S. missile strikes against Afghanistan in August 1998. The Afghan government under President Karzai has tried to revive the Trans-Afghan Pipeline (TAP) plan, with periodic talks held between the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Turkmenistan on the issue, but little progress appears to have been made as of early June 2004 (despite the signature on December 9, 2003, of a protocol on the pipeline by the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan and Turkmenistan)...Given the obstacles to development of a natural gas pipeline across Afghanistan, it seems unlikely that such an idea will make any progress in the near future, and no major Western companies have expressed interest in reviving the project.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/afghan.html

Safe itself from what. what is it that the taliban did?

Save itself from itself,the US is the preeminent military power on the Earth and destroyed the Taliban regime in what? two months. It is accepted by even the Pakistani's that OBL was at the time in Afghanistan, the US had intel. to suggest he was in Afghanistan and there was no other country on Earth which he could go to. So in order for you to convince me otherwise where else was he? The US was wholly justified in attacking the Taliban regime as it (even if Osama wasn't there) supported the Al Qaeda network by allowing its camps to be on its territory without any opposition from the gov't. So please tell me how you can even start to compare the war in Afghanistan with that in Iraq.

a long way down thel ine i do, we had a fruitfull releationship with them, wich saved, and ensured the lifes of thousand of children

No doubt, but that is not answering my question, even the best of liars can be nice people. So instead of shedding light on this irrelevancy, next time answer my question.

whos talking about complexes mate? i wansnt. was that a freudan slip?

I do have a complex...not liking ppl who don't know what they are talking about...alas you.

no

You are so freaking ignorant I want to barf on you...

http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/afghani stan.php

What ever happened to that virtous Taliban regime you speak of? Oh yes it was the one cutting off heads in Stadiums, how utterly humane.

becasue they didnt want the pipeline to cross the country

Do you know the term ad nauseum? Well my friend you are a classic example, just because you say it 20x doesn't make it any more true. The modus operandi of the Taliban was simple, if you pay them enough they would do it, so I am not even close to buying this ridiculousness of the pipeline being the causis belli of the war, that isn't to say it was a alterior motive but it was not the motive itself.

How? its one of the poorest country in the world, and had been at constant internal conflict untill the taliban took over.

This isn't the old war where national security threats like North Korea exist, this is a new world where the threats to US security is Globalized. You have to get out of the Europeanized concept of threat, which is a large economy, standing army, and weaponry. What threatens the US today is poverty (something the US should do something to end), it is ignorance, it is through the internet, it the ultimate threat the threat of ideas. The threat to the US is one of Muslims from all around the world coming to Afghanistan to train to fight against the US in a international Jihad, are you suggesting that the US just let those camps keep on going with Taliban support? Are you suggesting that the US let the Taliban protect and harbour OBL (who in 1998 actually decleared war on the US) without any provocation? If you do, then you are not worth talking to as you are not rational. The war in Iraq was a different story, at least I am intelligent enough to distinguish btwn these actions.

No it wasnt. so youre calling me an idiot, because you dont know your elbow from your arse? fine.

My friend if anything you MUST be talking to the mirror, I never called you an idiot you talk about freudian slips...I think you are realizing that you may very well be what you say you are.

we even heard rumors that he hid here in Denmark, and had been seen by several people lol. he could have been anywhere, and that is completely off the point.

HA! That was SOO not funny, your so called "wit" is LACKING. He couldn't have been anywhere as he was not wanted by anyone, Saudi Arabia took away his citizenship, he was kicked out of Sudan, his only refuge was Afghanistan or possibly the tribal regions of Pakistan which supported the Pashtun Taliban. Pakistan recognized this, are they liars too? All major intelligence agencies agreed that he was in that region at the time, and he was even spotted there and his videos after the 9/11 attacks suggested he was still there. So instead of wasting my time with extraordinarily non-funny jokes or so called "wit" start making sense.

The cluster bombings of civil cities had nothing to do with osama. Oh you didnt hear about those? well we saw them, because several of our people was there cleaning up the mess.

Show me actual evidence of cluster bombs being targeted at civilians, I am not saying it didn't happen but show me the evidence bc I cannot take of all ppl your word for it as you obviously are not objective.

the taliban never had the chance, they where removed because they where a threat to the pipeline project.

And the ad nauseum keeps on going, moving on from that ridiculousness. The Taliban destroyed the crop well before the 2001 invasion I believe it was in 2000. Even lets assume that the US invaded right after the crop was destroyed, what did the Taliban offer the farmers who had their crop destroyed well before 2001 in the initial stages? I doubt anything more then a Qu'ran verse. Its so perversely North Korean.

They had a lot of good plans brewing for the country, plans that the western press ofcourse said nothing about.

What were those plans? It obviously didn't include basic human rights. Using your logic Stalin was a God, he did great things for the Soviet Union but at what cost? If you think the Taliban was a virtous alternative then you are demented.

However, they wanted to sort the problems at its roots first. and then start over little by little, but the fact are, NOBODY came to their aid with the projects, after they refused the pipeline.

The US sure as hell gave them aid, don't give me that load.

could you explain how they are doing this, because we havent seen it at all. what we have seen is a few bags of rice handed out, and the reemerging of opium on an ever larger scale than ever before.

Its a long process, but over what $30 billion in aid or so for rebuilding the country. It won't be done overnight and its not only the US which is there other nations are also helping. The US doesn't want another failed state in Afghanistan that is not in her interest or the Taliban will just come back into power. The US wants to create a capitalist economy (what Americans consider freedom) and that means that those farmers will eventually move to the cities and get industrial jobs it will take decades but if the US has its way then Afghanistan may be a very different country in 30 years time. The US has a duty now to improve the lives of those people, and she has more in the way of resources to get it done. What I hope is that Afghanistan doesn't become a Americanized state, I hope it remains Afghani, that Islam does play a role in the state as it is the only thing keeping the country together, and that real democracy can emerge. But if you had your way, today people would be in a stadium watching beheadings. About Opium, what is more moral stopping the crop of having farmers starve?

yeah history repeating itself,i guess someone here sneezed real hard

Well ur vain attempts at propaganda have been noted, none of those pictures had anything in the way of context. Sorry but showing me those pictures could have been taken any time btwn 1979 and today. Secondly the US hasn't created the refugee problem so why show it? The picture of the building what building was it? I could be a legitmate military target for all I know, so the only think here that passing around a disease is you.

You havent been there, we have. aswell as many other conflict zones in the world. this was brutal, and you can like it or not.

More brutal then the 3 million dead in the Congo? More brutal then what the Taliban did with innocent people who broke their "Islamic laws"? More brutal then the Russian invasion of Chechnya? That isn't to say that war isn't brutal, but on a scale of brutality the US doesn't come close to the real brutality that we see in other parts of the world. One would rather be attacked by the US then most other nations on this Earth sadly enough.

Go out to the bathroom and look in the mirror. Learn to love that person anyway.

You of ALL people shant be talking, you KNOW nothing, and you SPEAK nothing your entire post was a logical fallacy.

Point is that Washington didn't attack the state of Afghanistan it attacked a rogue political force in the country...think about it.

Again pictures without context mean nothing to me, I will quote you OH hypocritius Maximus:

" have long ago accepted that all western media distorts the agenda beyond reckognition. But dont take my word for it, go and see for yourself."

Indeed you are NO different.

dont have to agree to anything an articel say. I have long ago accepted that all western media distorts the agenda beyond reckognition. But dont take my word for it, go and see for yourself.

Yes I don't deny distortion happens but which media outlet in this world doesn't distort? Its the human condition live with it.

And besides that, that just not good enough that its now trying to detroy the monster it created, because it isnt. We are talking about the most mighty force in the face of the planet. the strongest force ever known to man. If they wanted to end Al'Queda, it was gone. But as of now, it serves a larger purpose still.

Al Qaeda is pretty much gone, what is left is something more sinister a much more advanced group of Muslims who don't need to meet up, talk to each other they get their camps on the net, they get their indoctrination on the net. The US military is the most powerful on Earth, but this isn't a military war anymore its a war of ideas of technology, and of people. You are a hypocrite because you rightfully criticize the US for creating the monster but object when she tries to destroy it? Seems pretty irrational to me. The War in Iraq had nothing to do with the US war against Al Q I agree but Afghanistan surely did.

Females. Im sorry, english is but one of 6 languages that i speak, and write, so unfortunally as it is the 3rd or 4th that i learned, i cannot master all of them, but my own.

Well then next time use word check, or at least google it.

maybe not, but they are the ones dying.

Indeed they are I never doubted that did I? But innocents die in war don't they? There are wars which have to be fought in this world sadly and people will die. Do you want me to lie to you?

its a different situation. Germany declared war on the world so to speak. Afghanistan may or may not have hosted a "rogue political force" at the time. So wich is it, make up your mind. Did afghanistan pose a threat to the US? if so, how?

I already explained to you how, secondly Al Qaeda decleared war on the US in 1998 so it was a legitimate target, and all those who supported the "rogue political force" are also liable for attack. So don't waste my time with your crying spells...

im well aware, i have experienced my share.

Sure as hell doesn't seem like you have, you have a very distorted view of war obviously.

And no thats not what im saying, just read what i said again, as many times as you need. You are comparing apples and oranges. or rather. you are comparing a handgun to a 50pound hautzwitzer cannon.

Sorry the problem doesn't lie with me, it must your lack of comprehension and your obvious emotional state.

thats not why they entered afghanistan, and you know it. just dig up archived news feeds from back then. they where looking for bin ladin so HE could be brought to justice, that was the aim to begin with. But as aways the story change as needed. Iraq is a brilliant example

I agree the US has changed I don't disagree but in September 2001 the US had EVERY right to do what it did.

he has wmds...uhm...he has gas (that we sold him)...uhm...he has...ehh....he...uhm...hes a bad man!

Y do you assume I supported the Iraq war? Don't put ur inferior words in my mouth thank you.

yes it did, the bombs werent even stopped when they started.

Link it then, lets see this pipeline. Oh yes I forgot it doesn't exist...

??? how was afghanistan a threat?

I already answered this questions, this comprises the VAST majority of your post. Its getting boring don't you have anything interesting to say?

no you dont, you are absolutely clueless.

LMFAO...ok there captian crybaby.

but it wasnt the wish of the people of afghanistan, not any we talked to. And that is what gave room to tb

Excuse me...was the Taliban the wish of the ppl? Where was the election? Or was it in 1996 they invaded Kabul and said they were the leaders of the country and became a dicatorship?

i dont where did you get this idea from?

Read your posts and hear ur tone...

the soveriegn right of the land. the right to say no to international coorporations invading in the name of the holy capitalism.

As a signatory of the UN charter Afghanistan can lose its soverignty if the UN SC decides as such and it did. So no you have no argument here, secondly those who had the soverign right over the land was not the Taliban it was the NA and they supported the invasion so that ridiculously ignorant argument is shot to sh*t.

no it was the other way around, and here is what really happened. People where so fed up with being attacked by nomad tribes and warmongers. wemen where tired of being raped, and tired of having their children stolen by human traders. They where sick and tired of a givernment more interrested in own gain at the expense of all. and that is what gave rise to the taliban. How do i know? we where there :)

Then when the US came into Kabul the ppl were cheering as well...seems the Taliban wasn't all that great either.

My firend your overt ignorance is shocking....sorry to say. Learn reality then talk to me. btw...i think fox news is on.

Sorry but I PROVED your ignorance you have not done the same with me...wallow, wallow.



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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 31 July 2005 at 7:24pm

Ok show me quotes from accredited sources to support this assertion that the Taliban didn't want it.

we where there, we talked to them. take it or leave it or listen to fox i dont care

Secondly the US had enough money and power to sway the Taliban, and Pakistan to get their way. So I don't see why the US would invade Afghanistan soley on the premise of a pipeline, its absolutely ridiculous as the US had much greater weapons ($$$) available to get the Taliban to get on board, anyone can be bought and the Taliban showed that when they accepted US aid. I don't like the US all that much either, but I don't like it when people start making these base conspiracy theories with no evidence to actually back them up. Also to show how much YOU DON'T KNOW:

I had people there in the middle of it, you werent.

Save itself from itself,the US is the preeminent military power on the Earth and destroyed the Taliban regime in what? two months. It is accepted by even the Pakistani's that OBL was at the time in Afghanistan, the US had intel.

Like the intel they had that OBL was linked to Iraq. like the intel they had that Saddam had wmd's`Ok, theyw had intel, it must have been true then.

to suggest he was in Afghanistan and there was no other country on Earth which he could go to. So in order for you to convince me otherwise where else was he?

who know, where is he now? im not trying to convince you of anything.

The US was wholly justified in attacking the Taliban regime as it (even if Osama wasn't there) supported the Al Qaeda network by allowing its camps to be on its territory without any opposition from the gov't.

Why would they? why should they? Do you even know what those camps are and how it works. No you dont it seems. It not Al'Queda camps. its training camps for freedom fighters from all over the world. Who was traíned to go back to their own countrys and fight whatever quagmire they had to deal with. And Al'queda reqcruited from these camps, and not in great numbers by any means. Look up the name slimane hadj abrachmane, one of my best freinds. He was in those camps, and ended up on cuba. So I know these things first hand.

So please tell me how you can even start to compare the war in Afghanistan with that in Iraq.

both where based on suspusion, not fact. Both where based "intel" not true. etc. 

No doubt, but that is not answering my question, even the best of liars can be nice people. So instead of shedding light on this irrelevancy, next time answer my question.

i did and you refused the answer because you didnt want to hear it. fair enough. 

I do have a complex...not liking ppl who don't know what they are talking about...alas you.

Lol whatever. join an aid team and go into the conflicts, see things for youself from both sides.

You are so freaking ignorant I want to barf on you...

By all means do, nothing better has come from your mouth as of yet, so why not just continue where youre at.

What ever happened to that virtous Taliban regime you speak of? Oh yes it was the one cutting off heads in Stadiums, how utterly humane.

Lol. yes take it from michael moore. he knows, he wasnt there you see.

Do you know the term ad nauseum? Well my friend you are a classic example, just because you say it 20x doesn't make it any more true. The modus operandi of the Taliban was simple, if you pay them enough they would do it, so I am not even close to buying this ridiculousness of the pipeline being the causis belli of the war, that isn't to say it was a alterior motive but it was not the motive itself.

well as it obviously wasnt OBL either so please enlighten me :)

This isn't the old war where national security threats like North Korea exist, this is a new world where the threats to US security is Globalized.

well if they stopped being idiots, perhaps that could change, you reckon? 

You have to get out of the Europeanized concept of threat, which is a large economy, standing army, and weaponry. What threatens the US today is poverty (something the US should do something to end), it is ignorance, it is through the internet, it the ultimate threat the threat of ideas.

Ohh what we refer to as free speech, is the problem? what we refer to as freedom of faith is the problem? or perhaps what we refer to as freedom of thought?

The threat to the US is one of Muslims from all around the world coming to Afghanistan to train to fight against the US in a international Jihad, are you suggesting that the US just let those camps keep on going with Taliban support?

They DIDNT go to fight US. thats a blatant lie, and nothing but. These where people from all over the world, training to go back to their respective conflicts against brutal regimes. Places like chechenya 

Are you suggesting that the US let the Taliban protect and harbour OBL (who in 1998 actually decleared war on the US) without any provocation?

without any prov... look im not even going to tell you what is wrong with this observation. But theres a whole world of knowledge waiting for you yet.

If you do, then you are not worth talking to as you are not rational. The war in Iraq was a different story, at least I am intelligent enough to distinguish btwn these actions.

Killing of innocents is killing of innocents is killing of innocents. Yes, tis really THAT simple.

My friend if anything you MUST be talking to the mirror, I never called you an idiot you talk about freudian slips...I think you are realizing that you may very well be what you say you are.

A bloke from Denmark?

HA! That was SOO not funny, your so called "wit" is LACKING. He couldn't have been anywhere as he was not wanted by anyone, Saudi Arabia took away his citizenship, he was kicked out of Sudan, his only refuge was Afghanistan or possibly the tribal regions of Pakistan which supported the Pashtun Taliban. Pakistan recognized this, are they liars too? All major intelligence agencies agreed that he was in that region at the time, and he was even spotted there and his videos after the 9/11 attacks suggested he was still there. So instead of wasting my time with extraordinarily non-funny jokes or so called "wit" start making sense.

In the above, what excatly is it that you think that you have "proven"? All major intelligence agencies agreed. well it must be true then. they altso pretty much agreed that saddam had wmds. He was video filmed in a cave? ofcourse, those are only found in afghanistan, so it must be there. I dont know where he was, but to level a country to NOT gt him, is pretty weak. 

Show me actual evidence of cluster bombs being targeted at civilians, I am not saying it didn't happen but show me the evidence bc I cannot take of all ppl your word for it as you obviously are not objective.

www.google.com search clusterbombs+afghanistan for starters

And the ad nauseum keeps on going, moving on from that ridiculousness.

like the ad nauseum "intel" "intelligence agreed"

 The Taliban destroyed the crop well before the 2001 invasion I believe it was in 2000. Even lets assume that the US invaded right after the crop was destroyed, what did the Taliban offer the farmers who had their crop destroyed well before 2001 in the initial stages? I doubt anything more then a Qu'ran verse.

yes because groups like ISRA was only there for fun. Thats clear. I mean just loo up the projects, honestly i dont think youre worth educating, as you havent even found the pipeline on your own. all you can do apparently is utter denial. but a public tool like google, could have gotten you really far. I will help you a bit though. there is coal in example in afghanistan.

Its so perversely North Korean.

Afghnistan is comparable to north korea`? how? 

What were those plans? It obviously didn't include basic human rights. Using your logic Stalin was a God, he did great things for the Soviet Union but at what cost?

Those plans as we experienced them, was first. ensure stability by pressing the war tribes out in the outer spheres of the region, start educating people. They started out with the boys because those they could put to work emediately. Next would have been the girls, but they never got that far. Ofcourse the western press who never actually spoke to them, concluded something else. There is a lot of things, do you want to know all the projects in details, because that would requite qiute a bit of work getting the papers from isra and them write them in here. and honestly, i dont think youre worth it. But youre good for a laugh.

If you think the Taliban was a virtous alternative then you are demented.

I never said it was good. i said it was better. So people who dont eat your goop is ddemented now, is that it?

The US sure as hell gave them aid, don't give me that load.

Not the aid they needed. They needed experience with building up a country, and it was the only thing they ever really asked for. And we ourself are guilty of doing nothing. They wanted to do good, but the indifference of good men, made it a flawed project eventually.

Its a long process, but over what $30 billion in aid or so for rebuilding the country. It won't be done overnight and its not only the US which is there other nations are also helping. The US doesn't want another failed state in Afghanistan that is not in her interest or the Taliban will just come back into power.

I dont know what part it is you dont understand. i do work for an organistaion who was in the middle of it, and will be again. Us is not offering anything better. they are forcing their system down on them, no better than taliban.

The US wants to create a capitalist economy (what Americans consider freedom)

yes but many of us dont.

and that means that those farmers will eventually move to the cities and get industrial jobs it will take decades but if the US has its way then Afghanistan may be a very different country in 30 years time.

If US has its way? how about if the afghanis had their way. howabout that? i mean in their own country or is that asking too much?

The US has a duty now to improve the lives of those people, and she has more in the way of resources to get it done. What I hope is that Afghanistan doesn't become a Americanized state, I hope it remains Afghani, that Islam does play a role in the state as it is the only thing keeping the country together, and that real democracy can emerge.

Im happy that you actually are capable of making sense. :)

But if you had your way, today people would be in a stadium watching beheadings. About Opium, what is more moral stopping the crop of having farmers starve?

Uhm...do you know what opium is and what its used for? do you know who takes off most of their goods? Taleban was doing US a favour, although its wasnt their goal, just a side effect. Farmers where told to grow food to the country as they rightly should.

Well ur vain attempts at propaganda have been noted, none of those pictures had anything in the way of context. Sorry but showing me those pictures could have been taken any time btwn 1979 and today.

Rightclick on them, look at the source, and then go follow the little white rabbit to its hole.

Secondly the US hasn't created the refugee problem so why show it?

look at the page they are from, and its one of many. 

The picture of the building what building was it? I could be a legitmate military target for all I know, so the only think here that passing around a disease is you.

yes but you dont know. sor for all you know it could be illigemate, and its hardly the point. You claimed civilians where not victimised greatly. civil structures blown to rubblle because OBL was hiding in a cave. wheres the connection betwen sendeing people in refuge, and blowing up their houses, and looking for OBL and his "rogue" political organisation in caves? 

More brutal then the 3 million dead in the Congo?

Where is the connection. no and it wasnt as brutal as vietnam, or world war one and 2. But less can be brutal aswell.

More brutal then what the Taliban did with innocent people who broke their "Islamic laws"?

If you brake the law, youre not innocent are you?

More brutal then the Russian invasion of Chechnya? That isn't to say that war isn't brutal, but on a scale of brutality the US doesn't come close to the real brutality that we see in other parts of the world. One would rather be attacked by the US then most other nations on this Earth sadly enough.

Ok, whatever you say.  

You of ALL people shant be talking, you KNOW nothing, and you SPEAK nothing your entire post was a logical fallacy.

You hgave done a lot of talking but proven nothing at all, but taht you have an oppinion to wich you are entitled. For me, i would rather trut MY OWN EYES AND EARS, and those close freinds who was in the front row to the peacefull invasion by the US army, as you seem to want to make it. 

Again pictures without context mean nothing to me, I will quote you OH hypocritius Maximus:

Oh but they had a context. They where in the context of what i was writing.

Indeed you are NO different.

So you where in fact there? you talked to the taliban? if not, did you ahve any freinds close to you who where? in that case, its another deal. 

Yes I don't deny distortion happens but which media outlet in this world doesn't distort? Its the human condition live with it.

agreed fully. and this is why i wodner why you put forth your ideas as gospel truth, allthough knowing you got it from that excact media.

Al Qaeda is pretty much gone, what is left is something more sinister a much more advanced group of Muslims who don't need to meet up, talk to each other they get their camps on the net, they get their indoctrination on the net.

Yes ihave heard that the net is the new ghost to wich we must declare war. I honestly thought it was rumours, that noone could be so stupid, but i guess there is always room for surprice. 

The US military is the most powerful on Earth, but this isn't a military war anymore its a war of ideas of technology, and of people. You are a hypocrite because you rightfully criticize the US for creating the monster but object when she tries to destroy it?

Yes becasue i dont belive that it was the intention. But to each their own.

Seems pretty irrational to me. The War in Iraq had nothing to do with the US war against Al Q I agree but Afghanistan surely did.

Fair play. You are free to belive so, im not convinced. 

Well then next time use word check, or at least google it.

When you go for the man rather than the ball, you have lost the game. As you have answered to the post that must mean that you did understand what was being said and only wanted to use the lowest kind of amunition avaible in any debate.

Indeed they are I never doubted that did I? But innocents die in war don't they? There are wars which have to be fought in this world sadly and people will die. Do you want me to lie to you? 

No not at all, just fight amongst youself and keep us out of it. We have the right to host any guest we may seem fit. Just like us could host a varaity of NAZIS after WW2, allthough it pissed of most of europe at the time.

I already explained to you how, secondly Al Qaeda decleared war on the US in 1998 so it was a legitimate target, and all those who supported the "rogue political force" are also liable for attack. So don't waste my time with your crying spells...

So us is is by that definition a legal target right`? For anyone whom get hit over the head by the bombs of liberty? then why are they crying about it? gheeez..

Sure as hell doesn't seem like you have, you have a very distorted view of war obviously.

yes caring for human life is distorted. i know. IM sorry, my bad, i will try to develope a good rational heart of stone, and forget the children  i have seen blown to pieces with their intestines splattered all over the streets. I will try to forget about the "humanitarian" jobs the US forces did in serbia, and kosovo etc. You have an oppinion about war based on what? have you ever experienced it?   

Sorry the problem doesn't lie with me, it must your lack of comprehension and your obvious emotional state.

And he hit the man, strike 3. youre out! this is not an arguement.

I agree the US has changed I don't disagree but in September 2001 the US had EVERY right to do what it did.

because?

Y do you assume I supported the Iraq war? Don't put ur inferior words in my mouth thank you.

I couldnt for the barf, you just told me that. Im putting nothing in your mouth, im takng a swing at the reliability of the source you where using as truth.

Link it then, lets see this pipeline. Oh yes I forgot it doesn't exist...

oh yeah? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2608713.stm not the date. so this is the western view on it, there is no end to all the good this pipeline will do for the peple of afghanistan.

here is reality however.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/oil.html

Please not that the new leader of afghanistan was a former unocal consultant. But im mean, i shouldnt let stuff like that worry me, right?

So now that w know that you are indeed completely oblivious, and do not do your homework. should we stop here? I have personal photos of the pipeline construction that you could see, but i take it that those random images proofs nothing.

I already answered this questions, this comprises the VAST majority of your post. Its getting boring don't you have anything interesting to say?

actually you havent. you have put forth your personal oppinion, and at the same time shown that you are not up to date with the most basic things of this conflict. so..likewise 

LMFAO...ok there captian crybaby.

what is a captian?

Excuse me...was the Taliban the wish of the ppl?

not everybody, the northern alliance didnt like them much.

Where was the election? Or was it in 1996 they invaded Kabul and said they were the leaders of the country and became a dicatorship?

Hardly, the plan was to give over the power of government to the people under normal sunni islamic rules. I do not agree with their view on islamic law, but a lot of people from the area does. 

Read your posts and hear ur tone...

My tone? do you read your own posts?

As a signatory of the UN charter Afghanistan can lose its soverignty if the UN SC decides as such and it did.

Who are they to dictate countrys, as they are a gathering not representing all countrys. The same way UN does not reckognise all countrys, not all countrys reckognice UN, BUT WILL BE FORCED TO!

So no you have no argument here,

look above and realise that UN is not the epitha of all that is good and right to everybody.

secondly those who had the soverign right over the land was not the Taliban it was the NA and they supported the invasion so that ridiculously ignorant argument is shot to sh*t.

Not its not, the NA was terrorising the people, robbing, stealing, plundering. I know that the west have a history of supporting such regimes on a large scale.  

Then when the US came into Kabul the ppl were cheering as well...seems the Taliban wasn't all that great either.

Oh you mean like the cherring people of Iraq. Those 50 people gathered at a square, then shot from different angles so it looks as if the whole Iraq was praising its liberators? Yes im well aware of how western media manipulate images to fit the current political agenda. If it takes nothing more to impress you. well. good for you.

Sorry but I PROVED your ignorance

where excactly is it that you belive you h ave done so. with the pipeline LOL?

you have not done the same with me...wallow, wallow.

actually i have. nudge nudge. And the point you still havent got apparently. we where right in the middle of the action. You where left with western media coverage. So..belvie what you want to. And now lets stop this, youre a making more of a fool of yourself than you have to.

Peace

Noah

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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2005 at 11:10am

LOL are you still here? didnt read it, too much text. could you sum it up for me?

 

Peace

Noah

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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 01 August 2005 at 11:34am

[Note from Moderator: Guideline to discussion 10. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community

(personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion).

Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion or ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.]



Edited by Nausheen
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Quote Whisper Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 3:09pm

A Talibaan delegation was in Texas July 2001 - arranged by Zalmay Khalilzad (now the Pro-Consul for Iraq and before that Governor General of Kabul - we can't say Afghanistan. Karzai's writ does not run beyond Kabul).

Khalilzad + Hamid Karzai both were Unocal Consultants.

Talibaan wanted to build the pipeline with LOCAL resources and, that left the US companies no scope to inflate Project Costs for their directors' pockets.

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Quote b95000 Replybullet Posted: 02 August 2005 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Whisper

A Talibaan delegation was in Texas July 2001 - arranged by Zalmay Khalilzad (now the Pro-Consul for Iraq and before that Governor General of Kabul - we can't say Afghanistan. Karzai's writ does not run beyond Kabul).

Khalilzad + Hamid Karzai both were Unocal Consultants.

Talibaan wanted to build the pipeline with LOCAL resources and, that left the US companies no scope to inflate Project Costs for their directors' pockets.



Thanks for all the links so we could check out your research...  The Taliban were also in the US in 2001 to try to deal with the impasse regarding OBL, at that time - pre 9/11.
"He would not disclose details of a possible new proposal for a way out of the standoff over Mr. bin Laden, the Taliban's fourth, saying he needed a signal from Washington first."
Bruce
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 03 August 2005 at 1:37pm
Could the moderator plz send me my post so I may edit it, I don't think it was fair to have it deleted without at least  PM warning telling me to fix whatever you found objectionable. The objectionable thing here was the abuse of power. Anyways I proved Noah wrong, I personally think that was the problem.
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