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Boomer
 
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Quote Boomer Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:04am
Originally posted by Angel

 
Really??
then explain India, where islam and christianity are not the predominant religion.
 

I was hoping you could explain honor killings in Jordan, for example.

 

http://www.pbs.org/speaktruthtopower/rana.html

 

Journalist, feminist, and human rights defender, Rana Husseini broke the silence and exposed the shame of Jordan when she unveiled the common but unspoken crime of honor killings there. Honor killings happen when a woman is raped or is said to have participated in illicit sexual activity. Across the globe, women who are beaten, brutalized, and raped can expect police, prosecutors, and judges to humiliate victims, fail to investigate cases, and dismiss charges. Imagine what it means in Jordan, where women who are raped are considered to have compromised their families’ honor. Fathers, brothers, and sons see it as their duty to avenge the offense, not by persuing the perpetrators but by murdering the victims; their own daughters, sisters, mothers. Honor killings accounted for one-third of the murders of women in Jordan in 1999.

 
Not supportable? well here is a few resources to check:
from the bible:  

Lev 21:9  And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

"For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him. (Leviticus 20:9)

That’s a really weak argument. You are hoping to defend “honor” killings which predominate in islamist majority nations by copying and pasting verses from the Bible and claiming “honor” killings are part of Christian/Western societal norms.

 

The problem with your argument of course is that it utterly fails to provide evidence that “honor” killings are at all common in the West. The fact is, they are not.

 

Please compare the incidences of “honor” killings in Australia vs. the KSA, Jordan (the figures are provided above), Egypt or such other location in the islamist paradise of the Middle East. Report back to us what you find.  

 
 
An articles one from christian site:
Women and Honor Killings: What a Difference Christianity Makes
You found a single article.
 
 
I hope you assign you pathology to the western world where some men abuse women to and at times kill. Don't forget that some men in the West treat women as their possessions. And here there is no particular religion at play.
 

That’s also a weak argument. The fact is, spousal abuse in the West is a serious crime.

 

From the linked source above, we find that “honor” killings are calculated and treated by islamist courts as really not something to be concerned about:

 

The killers are treated with leniency, and families assign the task of honor killing to a minor, because under Jordanian juvenile law, minors who commit crimes are sentenced to a juvenile center where they can learn a profession and continue their education, and then, at eighteen, be released without a criminal record. The average term served for an honor killing is only seven and a half months.

 

It’s not surprising then that islamists so often flail their pom-poms in support of their islamist paradises… but choose to live in Infidel’istan where their rights are truly protected.   

 

Honor killings on the rise

Updated: Thursday, 03 Sep 2009, 12:58 AM EDT
Published : Thursday, 03 Sep 2009, 12:58 AM EDT

  • DAVID MARTIN | FOX 35 News

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/faith_news/090209_Honor_killings_on_the_rise

 
[quote]In Texas last year, a horrible 911 call came from two sisters.

“Oh my god! I'm dying. What's wrong ma'am? I'm bleeding everywhere,” one of them is heard screaming.

 
The father is the accused killer. His reason? They were dating boys.

"Most Westerners wouldn't understand that and wouldn't even believe that people think that way,” says Robert Spencer, founder of JihadWatch.org .

 
His website attempts to raise awareness about the activities of global jihadists. One of those activities is what's called honor killings, a practice which has its roots in the Middle East, and is now happening in the West.
 

“What they're concerned about is restoring the purity of the family in this world, and they do that by eradicating the member that is stained,” says Spencer.

 
Marriage infidelity, divorce, rejecting an arranged marriage, refusing to wear headscarves and homosexuality have all been reasons for which women and men have been killed.
 

Even victims of rape have been victims of honor killings.

Why argue such nonsense as reason and compassion when you can just appease your under-developed emotional maturity with a split second of religiously inspired violence and murder?



Edited by Boomer - 06 June 2010 at 10:05am
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Angel
 
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Boomer

Originally posted by Angel

 
Learn your history and you'll learn that Christianity did the same. Do you know about the crusades? the spanish inquistion? Wink 
There has always been fighting going on in that region for centuries, why is today different.
There is always wars going on between african tribes of differring beliefs Africa.
People have always fought over different ideologies and i don't think its going to stop anytime soon either.
I’m not going to excuse the outrageous acts of islamists simply because “hey, they did it too”. You do realize the Spanish Inquisition occurred centuries ago, right? Also, let’s remember that the Spanish Inquisition was not a worldwide problem that put every corner of the planet at risk.
 
 
I concur but i'm not stepping down from my points thou.
 

This is perhaps the greatest threat that the world faces – that islamists make excuses for Islamic terrorism.  It seems that you have fully embraced the “What Islamic Terrorism?” pathology that is so much a component of Islamism. Apparently, the internecine hatreds (which roots date back 1,400 years) and which cause islamists to mass slaughter each other and others is to be excused because “Hey – they did it too”. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to geopolitics in the islamist Middle East can understand that the plight of the arab/muslim world has everything to do with Arab/muslim intransigence, an utter inability to compromise and make peace with the out-group; all of which finds it’s focal point at an ancient text delineating the above.
 
 
 
Perhaps it is the greatest threat or not but you cannot just brush over a billion of muslims with one brush.
 
 

 

Can you tell me why so many non muslims work and live in the ME especially the UAE?

 
(Angel)Both Christianity and Islam and other faiths live side by side in peace in some parts of the ME. If its as bad as you make it out to be, then there should be an all out war. But please tell me why so many non muslims from parts of the world move there, live and work? (it cannot be all about the tax free shopping)
 

Actually, I can’t tell you why “so many” non islamists work and live in the ME because “so many don’t”. Further, why not define for us those “some parts” of the Middle East where Islamism hasn’t driven out competing religions.

 
I know there are a lot of australians living and working in the UAE and I'm quite sure there are plently of other people from elsewhere to. I wonder what attracts them to live and work in a predominate islamic state if its so bad. Unless the tax free shopping is that great!Big%20smile
The reason i say 'some parts' is because it varies across the area and its too time consuming to look and list but if you are interested perhaps you can do a search for yourself Smile 

 

How many competing faiths exist in Saudi Arabia? Please discuss for us the discrimination that Christian Copts face in Egypt. How many non-islamists are there in Yemen and other “islamist” parts of North Africa? The list goes on.  At no time in Islamic history has Islamism been accommodating to competing religions. There has never been equality for non-Muslims in a Muslim sharia state and there have been too often times of mass murder and persecution, forced conversion, forced exile, and oppression, even as far back as the time of Mohammed. The restrictions on non-muslims in the freedom to practice their faith, maintain houses of worship, engaging in permissible trades, in humiliating dress and restrictions on travel, etc. are part of Muslim history and law. Let’s not pretend that Islamism has ever been promoting of competing religions.

 
Since when does a religion promote another religion??
Actually if you do learn a bit more you will see that there was a time that Christianity and Islam lived peacefully side by side. The time when Spain was ruled under Isam, much was achieved together for the benefit of humanity.
Just incase you haven't realised or learnt, much of Indonesia is Islamic. 


Edited by Angel - 06 June 2010 at 10:15am
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:24am
Originally posted by Angel

FYI, I am not an islamist. Wink
Originally posted by Boomer

Why do you think you are not? 
 
 
LOL!!!
You honestly want me to explain??
Well I'm not you will have to take my word for it that I am notTongue
 
I am curious thou why you would ask a question like that why i think i am notGeek
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:47am
Originally posted by Boomer

Report back to us what you find.
 
 
You seem to have all the answers and the right views why should i report back then?? Dead
 
Look I am not disagreeing with you on some of the issues of honor killings but I do know that its not ALL islamic and it comes down to culture more so than religion. Whether its the societal norm or not it happens in christianity also and in India where both religions are not the beliefs systems there.
Putting aside what is and isn't the societal norms, do you agree that honor killings happen across different belief systems and cultures and places?
Or do you honestly believe that it is just an islamic thing?
 


Edited by Angel - 06 June 2010 at 10:47am
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Quote Boomer Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:55am
Originally posted by Angel

 
I concur but i'm not stepping down from my points thou.

Thou’est need not step down from “points”, one only needs to support them.

 

 
Perhaps it is the greatest threat or not but you cannot just brush over a billion of muslims with one brush.
My concern is with the sizeable community of islamists who have yet to claw their way beyond the mindset that will keep them enslaved to dogma laid down in an ancient text that has little relevance in the modern world. I am surrounded with far better, more current, and more comprehensive sources of applicable knowledge than what is contained in the Koran. Why would I go to the manifesto of a 7th century Arab warlord for practical advice on living in the 21st Century?
 

In scanning the forum itself I see it's populated by a great by islamists who live in the West and have had no real exposure to islam except the version that’s throttled by secular Western governance.  There are times when I’m convinced that women in the West who defend such things as burqas and who have never been subjected to the real islam need a “selective service” system, of sorts. I’ll suggest that the ummah’s girls living in the West need to register for a term of enlistment that includes actually living in the islamist Middle East for a period of time. It would allow them to announce their rights to dress as they choose in such places as the KSA or Iran… as they’re dragged away by the “virtue police”, kicking and screaming, demanding their rights.      
 

 

 

I know there are a lot of australians living and working in the UAE and I'm quite sure there are plently of other people from elsewhere to. I wonder what attracts them to live and work in a predominate islamic state if its so bad. Unless the tax free shopping is that great!Big%20smile
The reason i say 'some parts' is because it varies across the area and its too time consuming to look and list but if you are interested perhaps you can do a search for yourself Smile 
Actually, you’re the one making the claim of “so many” Australians living and working in the islamist Middle East. I was expecting that you would support your claim.
 
 
[quote]Since when does a religion promote another religion??
Actually if you do learn a bit more you will see that there was a time that Christianity and Islam lived peacefully side by side. The time when Spain was ruled under Isam, much was achieved together for the benefit of humanity.
Just incase you haven't realised or learnt, much of Indonesia is Islamic. 
Religions rarely promote competing religions but it is only in the islamist world where competing religions are routinely banned. I've always found it remarkable that islam is apparently the only faith that must use fear, intimidation and threats to keep it's adherents. The obvious question is: why do islamists need to use force and threats whils making islam the "state religion".  
 

Actually, if you do a search, you will find that following the islamist colonization of Spain, the usual subjugation and second-class status of non-moslems was rigorously enforced. I’m concerned when islamists make false claims about islamist conquests and hope to portray the islamist conquerers as something other than conquering hordes.

 

At no time in islamist history has the non-Muslims (kuffar) been the equal of Muslims. This is why there is a dhimmi (conquered subject subclass) status in Islam which defines the limited rights of non-equals. I’ll point out there is no analog to dhimmi status in either Christianity or Judaism. The allowances for dhimmis is subject to the subservient behavior of non-Muslims (e.g. as defined in the Pact of Umar). This was established because initially, the islamists wide conquest made Muslims the minority in the lands they ruled, and the business and wealth of these lands could only be maintained through the trained skills and knowledge of the local non-Muslim inhabitants. 1400 years of Muslim domination in the Middle East and the Maghreb (Northern Africa-Spain) have demonstrated that businesses, property, assets, even children could too frequently be confiscated at whim.

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Quote Boomer Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2010 at 10:56am
Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by Boomer

Report back to us what you find.
 
 
You seem to have all the answers and the right views why should i report back then?? Dead
 
Look I am not disagreeing with you on some of the issues of honor killings but I do know that its not ALL islamic and it comes down to culture more so than religion. Whether its the societal norm or not it happens in christianity also and in India where both religions are not the beliefs systems there.
Putting aside what is and isn't the societal norms, do you agree that honor killings happen across different belief systems and cultures and places?
Or do you honestly believe that it is just an islamic thing?
 
There's no need to hate me for simply asking you to support your claims.
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2010 at 11:18am

The fact is, spousal abuse in the West is a serious crime.


Really? If it were this would not be true.


"The precise incidence of domestic violence in America is difficult to determine for several reasons: it often goes unreported, even on surveys; there is no nationwide organization that gathers information from local police departments about the number of substantiated reports and calls; and there is disagreement about what should be included in the definition of domestic violence."


Read more at Suite101: Statistics of Abuse and Stalking http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/spousal_domestic_abuse/110025#ixzz0qByPOBnO

i teach self-defense and deal with this issue as my profession. We can call in "honor killings" to put down other cultures. But there are PLENTY of men who kill their wives cause they threaten to leave them or emasculate them somehow. Its a terrible, terrible problem  for women ALL over the world.

three are plenty of people who go to Church and go home and beat their wives. There are plenty of people who go to the Synagogue who go home and beat their wives. There are plenty of people who don't go to any house of faith who go home and beat their wives.

Dude wake up. (That may be asking too much)
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 08 June 2010 at 1:16am

Originally posted by Boomer

Originally posted by Angel

 

I concur but i'm not stepping down from my points thou.

Thou’est need not step down from “points”, one only needs to support them.

 

And you’re the King of supporting your points, right??
I brought my resources, if you’re not happy with them that is your issue to deal with not meBig%20smileEvil%20Smile

 

Originally posted by Boomer

Originally posted by Angel

Perhaps it is the greatest threat or not but you cannot just brush over a billion of muslims with one brush.

My concern is with the sizeable community of islamists who have yet to claw their way beyond the mindset that will keep them enslaved to dogma laid down in an ancient text that has little relevance in the modern world. I am surrounded with far better, more current, and more comprehensive sources of applicable knowledge than what is contained in the Koran. Why would I go to the manifesto of a 7th century Arab warlord for practical advice on living in the 21st Century?

In scanning the forum itself I see it's populated by a great by islamists who live in the West and have had no real exposure to islam except the version that’s throttled by secular Western governance.  There are times when I’m convinced that women in the West who defend such things as burqas and who have never been subjected to the real islam need a “selective service” system, of sorts. I’ll suggest that the ummah’s girls living in the West need to register for a term of enlistment that includes actually living in the islamist Middle East for a period of time. It would allow them to announce their rights to dress as they choose in such places as the KSA or Iran… as they’re dragged away by the “virtue police”, kicking and screaming, demanding their rights.

  

If that is you view I will not argue but where is your support/references  especially if you say you are "surrounded with far better, more current, and more comprehensive sources of applicable knowledge than what is contained in the Koran."

 

Originally posted by Boomer

Originally posted by Angel

I know there are a lot of australians living and working in the UAE and I'm quite sure there are plently of other people from elsewhere to. I wonder what attracts them to live and work in a predominate islamic state if its so bad. Unless the tax free shopping is that great!

The reason i say 'some parts' is because it varies across the area and its too time consuming to look and list but if you are interested perhaps you can do a search for yourself 

Actually, you’re the one making the claim of “so many” Australians living and working in the islamist Middle East. I was expecting that you would support your claim.

 

I never said 'so many' australians, I said 'a lot' of australians. Earlier when i mentioned 'so many' i meant from around the world from varies places go to UAE to work and live. Like I said if you are so interested you can do a search for yourself, check the varies countries statistics from consenus. Usually i would do some leg work but i'm all out of energy at the moment.  Sleepy

 

Originally posted by Boomer

Originally posted by Angel

Since when does a religion promote another religion??

Actually if you do learn a bit more you will see that there was a time that Christianity and Islam lived peacefully side by side. The time when Spain was ruled under Isam, much was achieved together for the benefit of humanity.

Just incase you haven't realised or learnt, much of Indonesia is Islamic.

Religions rarely promote competing religions but it is only in the islamist world where competing religions are routinely banned.

 

Well is it not their choice to do so is it not?.

And the problem for you with it, is what? Do you want to go there and live do you? Tongue

 

 

Originally posted by Boomer

I've always found it remarkable that islam is apparently the only faith that must use fear, intimidation and threats to keep it's adherents. The obvious question is: why do islamists need to use force and threats whils making islam the "state religion".

 

Sheesh!

Well Christianity uses fear, intimidation to, the threat of Hell.  

 

 

Originally posted by Boomer

Actually, if you do a search, you will find that following the islamist colonization of Spain, the usual subjugation and second-class status of non-moslems was rigorously enforced. I’m concerned when islamists make false claims about islamist conquests and hope to portray the islamist conquerers as something other than conquering hordes. At no time in islamist history has the non-Muslims (kuffar) been the equal of Muslims. This is why there is a dhimmi (conquered subject subclass) status in Islam which defines the limited rights of non-equals. I’ll point out there is no analog to dhimmi status in either Christianity or Judaism. The allowances for dhimmis is subject to the subservient behavior of non-Muslims (e.g. as defined in the Pact of Umar). This was established because initially, the islamists wide conquest made Muslims the minority in the lands they ruled, and the business and wealth of these lands could only be maintained through the trained skills and knowledge of the local non-Muslim inhabitants. 1400 years of Muslim domination in the Middle East and the Maghreb (Northern Africa-Spain) have demonstrated that businesses, property, assets, even children could too frequently be confiscated at whim.

 

And where is your resources?? Shocked

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