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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: Who wrote Quran? Post Reply Post New Topic
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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:19am
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O my dear brother beloved (with blinking eyes), its really not as difficult to understand as someone may think. Instead of arguing baselessly, hairspliting with "spelling mistakes" or otherwise, it would be more prudent to spend time in opening up the references that are provided.

The references you provided(what you call science) is based on belief that the person is truthful.  And different sects have different Ahadith.  The reference you provided,
Jalal al-Din Suyuti(about Itqan) bases his conclusions on those Ahadith.

Do you say these arguments to be baseless?  Without answering my questions, "
Whatever was passed on, was in oral form.  That too for more than a century.  And it is the collection of history, an event in time, which means it cannot be repeated.  Then how can you say "scientifically"?  It is based on memory and the belief that the person is truthful.  Moreover different sects believe in different Ahadith.  Then how can you say that it is not a matter of faith at all?"

Your own argument is interesting.

Regarding your comments "
So you mean to say that the compilation was verbal...." is not the logical outcome from my reply especially once the second paragraph is read along with it where I mentioned the process of later compilations as "..making this loose but ordered peices/fragments transfer ..". These both compilations were physical actions and not verbal alone. Though the orders for compilation from Prophet Mohammad must have been verbal, same way as the revelations were communicated to the scribes, but the actions of scribes to obey these commands to put them in an ordered format can't be considered verbal alone.

Yes you are right, at the same time they cannot be considered as being compiled in a hard copy form.

And so we are considering Zayed's compilation.

Regarding the names of the scribe, I realised that not all Islamic literature is available online, hence not readily accessable as I initially thought. Nevertheless, once you open up the Islamic literature books, you would definitely come across them as well.

Can you please give the names of the scribes and also which books to search for?  Thank you.

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masad
 
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Quote masad Replybullet Posted: 04 September 2005 at 10:58pm

Hello and Salam

If "Beloved" really wanted to understand, then it would be great to search around for articles and do deep research but unfortunately having made his way from the faithfreedom.org anti-Islam site to dupe unknowing believers he or she has a different motive, or so it seems ( http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1 43&start=15 )

That being clarified, we know that the Quran was written because it claims to be written and it records observations of people who didnt believe who SAW that it was being written, we don't have to look at outside sources that come much later in history:

Sura 98:2 "A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages"

This mentions "pages"

Sura 25:5 "And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening."

Here the Quran reproduces the speech of unbelievers who were accusing the prophet, much like the faithfreedom group of inventing something that they could SEE was authorized by the prophet to be written.

There are other references as well but these two should suffice.

 

 

 

 



Edited by masad
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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 06 September 2005 at 11:17pm
If "Beloved" really wanted to understand, then it would be great to search around for articles and do deep research but unfortunately having made his way from the faithfreedom.org anti-Islam site to dupe unknowing believers he or she has a different motive, or so it seems ( http://www.faithfreedom.org/holiday/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1 43&start=15 )

Interesting Masad.  First thank you for giving me that site.  I am nowhere connected to that forum.

anti-Islam site to dupe unknowing believers he or she has a different motive, or so it seems

By the way, Muslims consider the other 80% of the world population to be "anti-Islam".

Whats wrong is asking questions?  This topic was moved from "Quran and Sunnah" to this non-Muslim discussion without any tag.


That being clarified, we know that the Quran was written because it claims to be written and it records observations of people who didnt believe who SAW that it was being written, we don't have to look at outside sources that come much later in history:

Sura 98:2 "A messenger from Allah, reading purified pages"

Surahs form the part of written Holy Quran.

And my question is not "Was Quran written", but my question is who wrote Holy Quran.


Sura 25:5 "And they say: The stories of the ancients-- he has got them written-- so these are read out to him morning and evening."

Here the Quran reproduces the speech of unbelievers who were accusing the prophet, much like the faithfreedom group of inventing something that they could SEE was authorized by the prophet to be written.

<>There are other references as well but these two should suffice.


This is directly opposite of what I want.  Here no one is accusing the Prophet.
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masad
 
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Quote masad Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2005 at 7:33pm

Very surprising that you do not know that forum since they seem to know you very well. Anyway,

Please clarify what your point is in asking "who wrote the Quran". If you are asking pointless questions like people at faithfreedom, assuming that because of your pointless questions believers will automatically develop doubt, then you are wasting my time and the time of others, who go through much effort in answering you. Since people have limited time, there is something definitely WRONG in asking pointless questions to waste people's time and deliberately push put them in a quest for futile nonsense.

What do you want to prove or disprove by asking the questions "Who wrote the Quran"- develop a logical argument so I can frame a logical response, just don't throw out pointless questions like Ali Sina of faithfreedom. If you are unknowingly using this tactic then get an education and if you're deliberately using it, then shame on you.



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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 08 September 2005 at 8:50pm
Very surprising that you do not know that forum since they seem to know you very well.

If they know me, its not my mistake.  This is interenet brother.

Please clarify what your point is in asking "who wrote the Quran". If you are asking pointless questions like people at faithfreedom, assuming that because of your pointless questions believers will automatically develop doubt, then you are wasting my time and the time of others, who go through much effort in answering you.

Its upto you how you take my questions.  People in some other forum take my questions to be an attack and yet another a search for knowledge.  Can you point where my questions are pointless?
And I never ever thought of creating doubt.  This was first pointed out by Yusuf and then by you.  Why do you people feel so insecure?

Since people have limited time, there is something definitely WRONG in asking pointless questions to waste people's time and deliberately push put them in a quest for futile nonsense.
What do you want to prove or disprove by asking the questions "Who wrote the Quran"- develop a logical argument so I can frame a logical response, just don't throw out pointless questions like Ali Sina of faithfreedom. If you are unknowingly using this tactic then get an education and if you're deliberately using it, then shame on you.


I feel this to be a personal attack and I hope the moderators are watching it.  This is illogical to identify me with some other.

I respect other people's time and I never forced anyone into this discussion.

Please point out where my questions are pointless.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2005 at 9:06am

Coming back to my normal routine from some other diversions in life, I may like to continue with your comments, though they are nothing but baseless.

Originally posted by beloved

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The references you provided(what you call science) is based on belief that the person is truthful. 

Do you have any problem with this concept? Even the modern day courts accept this rule i.e. a person is considered truthfull untill proven other wise. Isn't it? So whats the problem?

 And different sects have different Ahadith.  The reference you provided, Jalal al-Din Suyuti(about Itqan) bases his conclusions on those Ahadith.

Authenticity of ahadith is done through science of higher criticism, the same way all other other histroical documents of the world are analysed. Do you deny this science? Differing sects agreeing on different ahadith is not a weekness but is based on logical argumentation; differing on the rules of admissability of a particular hadith. But again, everyone presents their logical reasoning to accept or reject a hadith, hence not a matter of faith alone.


Do you say these arguments to be baseless?  Without answering my questions, "
Whatever was passed on, was in oral form.  That too for more than a century. 

This is just a hypothesis without specific proof. It can easily be contrasted with the science of ahadith collection/acceptance.

 And it is the collection of history, an event in time, which means it cannot be repeated.  Then how can you say "scientifically"? 

As I have already said, "textual higher criticism" is a science of evaluating the authenticity of a proclaimed historical document. Its not unique to ahadith only but is widely applied on all historical documents. Probably, early Muslim scholars were among the poineers of using this science to evaluate their own books before putting their faith in them. This is the reason that they have classified these ahadith into different categories. I hope this would motivate the readers to go and understand this science of higher criticism before casting aspertions on the validity of oral transmission.

 It is based on memory and the belief that the person is truthful.  Moreover different sects believe in different Ahadith.  Then how can you say that it is not a matter of faith at all?"

Your own argument is interesting.

I hope I have presented you sufficient information for self reflection than simply interesting.



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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2005 at 11:10am
Coming back to my normal routine from some other diversions in life, I may like to continue with your comments, though they are nothing but baseless.

Hope I am not wasting your time as some members want others to believe.
And the answers I mostly get are similar, "baseless", "pointless" etc.

Do you have any problem with this concept? Even the modern day courts accept this rule i.e. a person is considered truthfull untill proven other wise. Isn't it? So whats the problem?

I don't even bother about that concept because it is based on the recordings of, may be, second or third generation.  I wonder how people believed in the Holy Quran until the Ahadith were written.

And your arguement, "Even the modern day courts accept this rule i.e. a person is considered truthfull untill proven other wise." has nothing to do with our present discussion just because the collection is based on belief and not on factual or physical evidence.  And later in the topic you said something about "textual higher criticism" which means that their existed some text which is what our present topic deals with.  So "until proven otherwise" is out for now.

Authenticity of ahadith is done through science of higher criticism, the same way all other other histroical documents of the world are analysed. Do you deny this science?

The science of higher criticism is a western science and it was "invented" a long time after Holy Quran was written.  And this western science neither supports Holy Quran nor Ahadith.  So it is better not to discuss about it.

Differing sects agreeing on different ahadith is not a weekness but is based on logical argumentation; differing on the rules of admissability of a particular hadith. But again, everyone presents their logical reasoning to accept or reject a hadith, hence not a matter of faith alone.

Do you mean to say one sect's logic is totally different from another sect's?  Then how can you call it "logic"?  Its like logic disproving logic, a cyclic redundancy check.

This is just a hypothesis without specific proof. It can easily be contrasted with the science of ahadith collection/acceptance.

Whatever you call as "science" was "invented" more than a century after the demise of our beloved Prophet.  And there are more counter-proofs than there are proofs for your claim about Ahadith.

As I have already said, "textual higher criticism" is a science of evaluating the authenticity of a proclaimed historical document. Its not unique to ahadith only but is widely applied on all historical documents. Probably, early Muslim scholars were among the poineers of using this science to evaluate their own books before putting their faith in them. This is the reason that they have classified these ahadith into different categories. I hope this would motivate the readers to go and understand this science of higher criticism before casting aspertions on the validity of oral transmission.

Comaparing science of Ahadith with science of higher criticism is not at all logical because as you said "differing on the rules of admissability of a particular hadith".  This means different sect had different rules unlike the science of higher criticism which is a common evaluation tool.

And we have gone way beyond our present topic.  Please, can we continue with the Zayed's compilation(which is much before any Hadith was written)?  From where Zayed has compiled Holy Quran if not from anonymous sources?  To be more precise, I would ask you to tell me about the "text" when you said "textual higher criticism".

Thank you.
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masad
 
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Quote masad Replybullet Posted: 09 September 2005 at 12:56pm

Here is an article on hadith for those who are interested

http://hadith.rationalreality.com

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