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Islam for non-Muslims
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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2005 at 1:51am

Can I know from where did you get this information?

If it is from the Hadith, please give me the reference aptly.

This is what my second post in this topic refers to, "When was the hadith written, before or after the compilation of Quran? And who wrote the hadith?"

The first reference definitely does not tell us that it was written.  It was only verbally compiled isn't it?

Zaid is reported to have said:

'We used to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle.' [Itqan, I, p. 99; Salih, p.69.]

This reference though seems good, but never closer to the answer.  Why does it have the continuous tense?  Was it compiled verbally or in written form?  If the Quran was compiled during the time of Prophet in written form, then what was the need to compile it again soon after the demise of Beloved Prophet?  And if this statement is true then can you please tell me was this "compiled Qur'an" used as a reference to compile It "again"?

The third reference does not tell about the compilation of the entire Holy Quran, it only tells about some suras and ayats being placed in them.

Thanks.

P.S. By the way, why do you think Holy Quran was not revealed in chronological order? And one of my old questions, what was the need of dotting etc., of the Holy Quran?

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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2005 at 1:51am

Oh, I see. So you mean bro Jazz is diverting from the topic and I am being dragged too in this direction. Hmm! I better correct myself but only if bro Jazz don't blame me for avoiding his precious questions on Quran.

You can continue your talk with Jazz Ahmad.  I liked his philosophy thats why I appreciated him, if you don't like it, what should I do?  I told Jazz about my problem, that is all in it.

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mazallen
 
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Quote mazallen Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2005 at 1:44am

As Salamu Alaikum,

I've heard from certain internet sources, and Arabic textbooks, that signs for short verbs (the dotting) were added to the Qur'an because non-Arabic speakers were misinterpreting phrases from it (since they were unfamiliar with the Arabic language and frequently misprounounced key words.)  In a word, Khalifa Uthman (may Allah, s.w.t., be pleased with him) added the dotting and dashes so that new believers would not remain ignorant of their religion.  Unfortunately some saw this, too, as "innovation."

Peace



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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2005 at 7:50am
that signs for short verbs (the dotting) were added to the Qur'an because non-Arabic speakers were misinterpreting phrases from it (since they were unfamiliar with the Arabic language and frequently misprounounced key words.)

Does that mean Arabic did not have short verbs?
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Deus
 
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Quote Deus Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2005 at 10:47am

Originally posted by beloved


P.S. By the way, why do you think Holy Quran was not revealed in chronological order? And one of my old questions, what was the need of dotting etc., of the Holy Quran?

The dotting in Arabic was implemented so that one can distinguish between different letters (for example, the letter ba and ta look the same, except that ba has a dot under, while ta has 2 dots over.) Arabic was much more of an oral language before Islam, and the written Quran had no dots or pronounciation marks (which are quite similar to vowels in English). Someone who had memorized or was familiar with the Quranic verses would easily read the ambiguous written Quran that lacked dots and pronounciation marks. However, for someone reading it for the first time, or someone learning Arabic, it would be near impossible to read a sentence that lacked the dots and pronounciation marks. And this is the reason why dots were added to the written Arabic language. Later on, pronounciation marks ("vowels") were introduced by al-Hajjaj (not Uthman) to further clarify the written Arabic leaving no room for ambiguity.

(References: mostly from my own memory, but you can check Wikipedia, look up "Arabic language")

As to why the Quran was not revealed in chronological order... I guess you mean why the Quran is not canonized in chronological order? As far as I know, the reasons are not very clear or concrete. It was simply decided to place the surah's in the order of length, from longest to shortest.

(On a personal note, I find it interesting that the end of the Quran speaks about the end of the world, while the first third of it talks about stories of the past. The middle chunk talks about laws and current affairs (of the time of revalation).)

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Quote mazallen Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2005 at 11:53am

As Salam Alaikum wa rahmatu'llah,

Thank you Br. Deus for the clarification -- Khalifa Uthman ibn Affan was responsible for the first authenticated version of the Qur'an, but the marks were added by Al-Hajjaj bin Yusef.  The point still stands though: that it was for the purposes of clearing all ambiguity.  Anyways, here is the reference to the short vowels I referred to (and yes it is from Wiki):

Diacritics

Vowels

Arabic short vowels are generally not written, except sometimes in sacred texts (such as the Qur'an) and didactics, which are known as vocalised texts. Occasionally short vowels are marked where the word would otherwise be ambiguous and cannot be resolved simply from context.

Short vowels may be written with diacritics placed above or below the consonant that precedes them in the syllable. (All Arabic vowels, long and short, follow a consonant; contrary to appearances: there is a consonant at the start of a name like Ali — in Arabic ʻAlξ — or a word like ʼalif.)

Returning to the discussion, Arabic had short vowels, but these were not written in earlier texts because everyone knew where the short vowels belonged (as the readers of those early texts were all native Arabic speakers.)  If there are any errors in this post, remember, only Allah (s.w.t) is perfect.  The writer of this post is only a man (and, moreover, one trying to become better acquainted with Islam.)

Peace  

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2005 at 12:27am

My dear brother, though I have already spent alot more time than is usually required for such simple questions that you have asked, but nevertheless, you don't seem to go through them. All the evidence presented has full reference mentioned along with them. Kindly either refute those references as false, so that I shall open up the books for you or make little efforts on your ownself to verify the facts. Other than that it seems you have nothing else to ask for. Anyhow, I shall continue to respond to your comments, how simplistic they may appear. 

Originally posted by beloved

Can I know from where did you get this information?

I think since all references are self sufficient, there is hardly any need for such a question.

If it is from the Hadith, please give me the reference aptly.

Any student of Islamic literature would recognize this, though the reference themselves says it also. e.g. Bukhari, VI, No. 520; see also Nos. 518, 519.]

This is what my second post in this topic refers to, "When was the hadith written, before or after the compilation of Quran? And who wrote the hadith?"

Definitely, ahadith collection was done very much after Quran was compiled.

The first reference definitely does not tell us that it was written.  It was only verbally compiled isn't it?

It indeed tells us that Quran was compiled right in the presence of Prophet Mohammad and hence not a later addition. Also, though verbally, it doesn't preclude that it wasn't done in the written form as well. Isn't it? This is especially true in the light of second evidnec.

Zaid is reported to have said:

'We used to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle.' [Itqan, I, p. 99; Salih, p.69.]

This reference though seems good, but never closer to the answer.  Why does it have the continuous tense?  Was it compiled verbally or in written form? 

Is this the reason that you think that it doesn't get closer? So my dear, the person in the reference is narrating his own duties that he used to perform when he was with Prophet Mohammad as a scribe. Hence his selection of tense would show his direct action of compiling the Quran.

 If the Quran was compiled during the time of Prophet in written form, then what was the need to compile it again soon after the demise of Beloved Prophet? 

My dear, this compilation, as we understand is, to put all the Quranic verses in order and in one place as we also know that Quran was not revealed in choronological order. Hence, this compilation must relate to this job of putting the verses in order as what we now have Quran with us, right in the presence of Prophet Mohammad.

 And if this statement is true then can you please tell me was this "compiled Qur'an" used as a reference to compile It "again"?

Later day compilations were to make it in one or more bound copy/ies of Quran as per need basis.

 

The third reference does not tell about the compilation of the entire Holy Quran, it only tells about some suras and ayats being placed in them.

Yap. You are right to some extent, but it does show that the ordering of the verses of Quran, as is also shown in reference 2, was done right in the time of Prophet Mohammad when he was alive.

Thanks.

P.S. By the way, why do you think Holy Quran was not revealed in chronological order?

O my brother, there is no thinking on my part. Its all from the evidence that I have shown you. Also the formation of verses in Quran when correlated with Islamic history, confirms this.

And one of my old questions, what was the need of dotting etc., of the Holy Quran?

I think you have already been answered on this by other brothers on this forum.

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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 17 August 2005 at 8:45pm
Thank you Deus for your prompt answer.  Cheers!

Can I know how old is the Arabic language is?
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