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Islam for non-Muslims
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2005 at 3:00pm

Originally posted by beloved

anyone answer please

I really couldn't get your call for? If you are refering to something by giving the dictionary meanings of "writer", "author" and "scribe", then it may be recalled that I said "distingusih" the difference between them and not the "resemblence". Therefore, when a website refered that Allah is the writer of Quran, within the dictionary meaning, it implies that Allah is the creator of it. Whereas Prophet Mohammad was  its messanger through whom this message came to humans. The "scribes" were those who were especially appointed by Prophet Mohammad for transferring the verbal Quran to written Quran. Though the names of these "scribes" have already been provided to you, but if you are not satisfied, somehow, do let me know, and I shall dig up that info for you. Not a big deal. However, one thing must not be forgotten, that since Quran was revealed over a period of almost 23 years, it wasn't revealed in chronological order. So, once all the Quran had been revealed, Prophet Mohammad dictated its order of compilation as well, after which it used to be recited in that order regularly especially in the month of Ramadan when whole quran is recited at least once. Not only this, it is reported that in the last year of his life, Prophet Mohammad twice recited whole of the Quran to Angel Jibreel. Hence even if some of the names of the scribes during this period of 23 years may not be fully known, it hardly matter since the messanger himself authenticated its completion before his death. Hence leaving No doubt about it.  

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 12 August 2005 at 3:08pm
A word for bro Jazz for taking pains to post such lengthy "cut and paste" kind of things. My bro, honestly, if you have any thing specific to ask, you are most welcome, other wise pasting such typical rhetorics won't do any purpose. They are nothing new and have much been pretty appropriately replied back. I don't find any purpose of replying you back in the same way of tit for tat. Hopefully, you would present your own arguments, though, whatever your source of info may be.
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2005 at 6:21am
I really couldn't get your call for?

Its not a call or is it.  Because the topic was shifted to a non-Muslim forum, I just want to give a message.

If you are refering to something by giving the dictionary meanings of "writer", "author" and "scribe", then it may be recalled that I said "distingusih" the difference between them and not the "resemblence".

I have given the exact meanings from the Marriam-Webster Dictionary.  I am neither tried to "distinguish" nor tried to "resemble".

Its for you to do what you want to do.

Therefore, when a website refered that Allah is the writer of Quran, within the dictionary meaning, it implies that Allah is the creator of it.  Whereas Prophet Mohammad was  its messanger through whom this message came to humans.

Now a new reference is given.  I know that Allah is the Creator of the Quran.  In fact everything was, is and will be created by Allah.

Please refer my premier question.  "If God were the revealer and Muhammad were the one who heard it, who is the writer?"

Though the names of these "scribes" have already been provided to you, but if you are not satisfied, somehow, do let me know, and I shall dig up that info for you. Not a big deal.

Only a few names were provided, isn't it?  I would like to know.  But since you concluded "Hence even if some of the names of the scribes during this period of 23 years may not be fully known", I would like to atleast "dig up" their names as it is not an impossible task.

However, one thing must not be forgotten, that since Quran was revealed over a period of almost 23 years, it wasn't revealed in chronological order.

I know it.  But some authors do not reveal this.

So, once all the Quran had been revealed, Prophet Mohammad dictated its order of compilation as well, after which it used to be recited in that order regularly especially in the month of Ramadan when whole quran is recited at least once. Not only this, it is reported that in the last year of his life, Prophet Mohammad twice recited whole of the Quran to Angel Jibreel. Hence even if some of the names of the scribes during this period of 23 years may not be fully known, it hardly matter since the messanger himself authenticated its completion before his death. Hence leaving No doubt about it. 

Can I know from where you got this information?  Because it is a well known fact that Holy Quran was not compiled during Prophet's time but was only remembered and recited.  People generally combine the time of Abu Bakr(the Caliph) and the Prophet and then say that Holy Quran was authenticated by the Prophet Himself. Isn't it?
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Quote Jazz Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2005 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by AhmadJoyia

A word for bro Jazz for taking pains to post such lengthy "cut and paste" kind of things. My bro, honestly, if you have any thing specific to ask, you are most welcome, other wise pasting such typical rhetorics won't do any purpose. They are nothing new and have much been pretty appropriately replied back. I don't find any purpose of replying you back in the same way of tit for tat. Hopefully, you would present your own arguments, though, whatever your source of info may be.


Dear AhmadJoyia,

The length of the article and whether it was cut and paste is irrelevant.
It is the information contained within the article that matters, whether it be new or old to you, has little bearing on the content.

The argument is, that the assertion of unaltered, perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God may not be true, the evidence supporting this argument is sound, logical and reasonable.

This sound, logical evidence which refutes the claims of unaltered and perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God presently stands unrefuted in this thread.

Bear in mind that proof of preservation, if it were to be established, is not proof of authorship.........and proof of authorship (apparently impossible to establish) is not proof of preservation.

Believing something to be true does not make it true.

Here is more evidence to consider:-

Here is an hadith where it appears Abu Bakr is the first to produce a "revelation".........read the last part (in blue)

Sahih al-Bukari

كتاب الجنائز (The Book of Funerals)
No. 1171 - Narrated 'Aisha :

Abu Bakr came riding his horse from his dwelling place in As-Sunh. He got down from it, entered the Mosque and did not speak with anybody till he came to me and went direct to the Prophet, who was covered with a marked blanket. Abu Bakr uncovered his face. He knelt down and kissed him and then started weeping and said, "My father and my mother be sacrificed for you, O Allah's Prophet! Allah will not combine two deaths on you. You have died the death which was written for you."
Narrated Abu Salama from Ibn Abbas : Abu Bakr came out and 'Umar , was addressing the people, and Abu Bakr told him to sit down but 'Umar refused. Abu Bakr again told him to sit down but 'Umar again refused. Then Abu Bakr recited the Tashah-hud (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle) and the people attended to Abu Bakr and left 'Umar. Abu Bakr said, "Amma ba'du, whoever amongst you worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, Allah is alive and will never die. Allah said: 'Muhammad is no more than an Apostle and indeed (many) Apostles have passed away before him ..(up to the) grateful.' " (3.144) (The narrator added, "By Allah, it was as if the people never knew that Allah had revealed this verse before till Abu Bakr recited it and then whoever heard it, started reciting it ")
---------------------------------------------------------- --------

jazz


Edited by Jazz
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beloved
 
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Quote beloved Replybullet Posted: 13 August 2005 at 10:24pm
The length of the article and whether it was cut and paste is irrelevant.
It is the information contained within the article that matters, whether it be new or old to you, has little bearing on the content.

The argument is, that the assertion of unaltered, perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God may not be true, the evidence supporting this argument is sound, logical and reasonable.

This sound, logical evidence which refutes the claims of unaltered and perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God presently stands unrefuted in this thread.

Bear in mind that proof of preservation, if it were to be established, is not proof of authorship.........and proof of authorship (apparently impossible to establish) is not proof of preservation.

Believing something to be true does not make it true.


Good bit of philosophy brother.
Keep flying.

Anyway, other members and I are not discussing authorship(which as you said is impossible to establish).  But we were discussing how the Holy Quran which exists now, exists?

There are many conflicts about this and no one knows where the first compiled Holy Quran is.
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2005 at 10:08pm

Originally posted by beloved


So, once all the Quran had been revealed, Prophet Mohammad dictated its order of compilation as well, after which it used to be recited in that order regularly especially in the month of Ramadan when whole quran is recited at least once. Not only this, it is reported that in the last year of his life, Prophet Mohammad twice recited whole of the Quran to Angel Jibreel. Hence even if some of the names of the scribes during this period of 23 years may not be fully known, it hardly matter since the messanger himself authenticated its completion before his death. Hence leaving No doubt about it. 

Can I know from where you got this information?  Because it is a well known fact that Holy Quran was not compiled during Prophet's time but was only remembered and recited.  People generally combine the time of Abu Bakr(the Caliph) and the Prophet and then say that Holy Quran was authenticated by the Prophet Himself. Isn't it?

Sure, my brother. Quran was duly compiled (placed in its proper order and format) within the life span of Prophet Mohammad. Here is the reference for the above information.

"The order and arrangement was of course well known to the Muslims due to the daily recitation of the Qur'an in the prayers at the mosque of the Prophet and at other places. Finally there are three ahadith in Sahih Bukhari, informing us that the Angel Gabriel used to recite the Qur'an with the Prophet once a year, but he recited it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet used to stay in i'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramad. an), but in the year of his death, he stayed in i'tikaf for twenty days. [Bukhari, VI, No. 520; see also Nos. 518, 519.] "

On the more here is another reference "

Zaid is reported to have said:

'We used to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle.' [Itqan, I, p. 99; Salih, p.69.]

"

and yet another reference "

'Uthman said, that in later days, the Prophet 'used to, when something was revealed to him, call someone from among those who used to write for him and said: Place these ayat in the sura, in which this and this is mentioned, and when (only) one aya was revealed to him, he said: Place this aya in the sura in which this and this is mentioned'. [Jeffery, A.: Materials for the history of the text of the qura'n, (incl. Kitab al-masahif by Ibn Abi Dawud (abbr. as Ibn Abi Dawud, masahif) Leiden, 1937, p. 31.]

"

 

 

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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2005 at 10:55pm

Originally posted by Jazz

]
Dear AhmadJoyia,

The length of the article and whether it was cut and paste is irrelevant.
It is the information contained within the article that matters, whether it be new or old to you, has little bearing on the content.

Yes, indeed my brother you are correct in this statement, however, fact remains that all these issues have been replied as well. Isn’t it? Hence, it would not be honesty on someone’s part to bring them here without bringing the counter arguments or replies received on these questions. Though, anyone can reinitiate these issues, but then he has to understand them first and only then reason them out if they really make sense. The classical example to this is clearly reflected once you picked up one such issue and pasted at the end of this post. I shall show through dissecting this issue more fully at the end.



The argument is, that the assertion of unaltered, perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God may not be true, the evidence supporting this argument is sound, logical and reasonable.

You have not presented any of your logic or argument except the one below and I shall see how do you understand it.



This sound, logical evidence which refutes the claims of unaltered and perfectly preserved Quran and that it was authored by God presently stands unrefuted in this thread.

Here you go, my brother. So, elsewhere, from where you got this material, this so called “logical evidence” was indeed refuted, though not on this thread. Hmm!!!. Not very late, my brother, keep bringing them one by one within your understanding, and I shall see how things get straighten up here as well.



Bear in mind that proof of preservation, if it were to be established, is not proof of authorship.........and proof of authorship (apparently impossible to establish) is not proof of preservation.

Believing something to be true does not make it true.

Surely,my brother. This is a perfectly reasonable approach. I hope you would also abide by the same once we get to discussing the Bible as well.



Here is more evidence to consider:-

Here is an hadith where it appears Abu Bakr is the first to produce a "revelation".........read the last part (in blue)

So, my dear brother what do you understand by this narration. Do you know who is the narrater and what was his/her relation with Abu-Bakr? Without these basic questions, how can one even claim to understand the subject of such “snap-shot” like narrations? Yes, these are indeed “snap-shot” narrations as the narration itself doesn’t provide any details as what happened before and after this narration, which is highly important to understand the context under which such narrations occurred. Now, coming to your fallacy of “where it appears Abu Bakr is the first to produce a "revelation".........read the last part (in blue)

Ok, though there are so many things that can be used to refute your understanding, but I shall restrict myself to some very obvious ones.

This is the narration of the events right at the time of death of our beloved Prophet Mohammad. People around him who used to love him more than their own very close near and dear ones got shocked on the news of his death. They didn’t believe that such a person can ever die. So they were not satisfied with the news and were arguing on this news. So when Abu Bakr came to this place, he immediately recalled them the verses of the Quran that “Then Abu Bakr recited the Tashah-hud (i.e. none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and Muhammad is Allah's Apostle)” and then recited from the Quran that “Allah said: 'Muhammad is no more than an Apostle and indeed (many) Apostles have passed away before him ..(up to the) grateful.' " (3.144)”.  These verses indicated that indeed Prophet Mohammad was a natural human being just like other Prophets of Allah before him. Since they all died, hence the same way Prophet Mohammad had to die as well. Also note his own famous sayings at that moment of shock “"Amma ba'du, whoever amongst you worshipped Muhammad, then Muhammad is dead, but whoever worshipped Allah, Allah is alive and will never die”, Hence, the people now realized that indeed its Allah who is their guardian and protector and Prophet Mohammad was simply a messenger to convey His message. It is in this sense that the narrator added that “"By Allah, it was as if the people never knew that Allah had revealed this verse before till Abu Bakr recited it and then whoever heard it, started reciting it ")

On the more, if someone looks at the blue highlighted text a little more closely now than before, “it was as if” part of it clearly shows that people, in the time of shock, had forgotten those verses which Abu Bakr simply made them remind and the narrator made a note of effect of this reminder on the people.

I hope with this example, one would understand the shallowness of all such accusations presented above. Anyhow, if you still feel uncomfortable with this or with any other example like this, feel free to bring it forward.



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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AhmadJoyia
 
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2005 at 11:06pm

Originally posted by beloved

Good bit of philosophy brother.
Keep flying.

Anyway, other members and I are not discussing authorship(which as you said is impossible to establish).  But we were discussing how the Holy Quran which exists now, exists?

There are many conflicts about this and no one knows where the first compiled Holy Quran is.

Oh, I see. So you mean bro Jazz is diverting from the topic and I am being dragged too in this direction. Hmm! I better correct myself but only if bro Jazz don't blame me for avoiding his precious questions on Quran.

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