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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 01 December 2005 at 8:38am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

Ahmad i have to ask where are you getting ur information from.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2005 at 8:23am

Dear Bro rami, here is my response when you objected me "They emphasised more on this aspect of authenticity than any other aspect, such as the content of the narration or historical accuracy of the contents etc

this is inaccurate, one of the criteria they used was content and most certainly they would rejected entire ahadith based upon this, they looked at all areas you have mentioned.
"

In my above statement, light and dimmed text, the pronoun used for "they" refers to the actual collectors of ahadith. Famous example is of Ibn-Majah whose collection contain all sorts of ahadith varying in all categories. Here is a brief account of this book

"The  author,  in his Criticism of  Hadith  among Muslims  with  reference to Sunan Ibn Majah,  has given  more examples of fabricated ahadith under the  following  eight categories  of  causes  of fabrication:83

(i) political differences;
(ii) factions based on issues of creed;
(iii)  fabrications by zanadiqah (enemies-within
spreading heretical beliefs);
(iv) fabrications by story-tellers;
(v) fabrications by ignorant ascetics;
(vi)  prejudice  in favour of town,  race  or  a
particular imam;
(vii) inventions for personal motives;
(viii) proverbs turned into ahadith
. " [1]

 Though, I don't know whom do you refer to with your use of pronoun "they" in your text (highlighted and green in color); the actual collectors of Ahadith or the later day scholars of Ahadith through which ilum ul ahadith and ilm ul rijal got developed over the period of centuries.

 Here is a reference from your own referred postings. "This science was continuously implemented by its highly skilled imams up until the time of the 12th century at which  time every piece of knowledge or information that had been transmitted was recorded and classified according to these uniquely devised methods.  Such methods of transmission to protect the sources of any religion had never occurred in the history of mankind." [2]

 To say this development is complete (every piece collected etc.) and therefore no progress,  is a fallacy of its own kind. It is illogical, beyond comprehension and even contrary to evidence of factual history. Presence of large number of Islamic scholars in these fields of ahadiths, not only till 12th century, but many scholars like Sheikh Nawawi and al-Suyuti from 14th to 16th CE till present day scholars of ahadith like Sheikh Al-Albani, are few of them who are continuing this science.

 Here is an extract on this from the brief history of Ahadith [1] "An abridgement of Muqaddimah, Al-Irshad by al-  Nawawi (d. 676), which he later summarised  in his  Taqrib;   al-Suyuti (d. 911)  compiled  a valuable  commentary  on the  latter  entitled Tadrib al-Rawi. Ikhtisar  'Ulum  al-Hadith of Ibn  Kathir  (d.
  774),  Al-Khulasah of al-Tibi  (d.  743),  Al-Minhal of Badr al-Din b. Jama'ah (d. 733), Al- Muqni' of Ibn al-Mulaqqin (d. 802) and Mahasin
  al-Istilah  of  al-Balqini (d.  805),  all  of which  are abridgements of Muqaddimah Ibn  al- Salah."

In the end I may summarise that though most of the tools of this science have been developed in its early history, but the use of these tools is still going on. I hope this shall clarify my point. 

[1] http://www.islamworld.net/hadith.html

[2] http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3115& ; ;PN=1

 

 



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 02 December 2005 at 7:36pm
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

You made the claim that the scholars of hadith only checked the chain of the naration but not its text which is a baseless claim. I said they rejected many ahadith which where finr in every other aspect but failed the statdards they established for checiking the text of the hadith.

That was my main point.

if you imply something else in your writing you should state it clearly rather than hint at it.

To say this development is complete (every piece collected etc.) and therefore no progress,  is a fallacy of its own kind. It is illogical, beyond comprehension and even contrary to evidence of factual history. Presence of large number of Islamic scholars in these fields of ahadiths, not only till 12th century, but many scholars like Sheikh Nawawi and al-Suyuti from 14th to 16th CE till present day scholars of ahadith like Sheikh Al-Albani, are few of them who are continuing this science.

our scholars colected all the ahadith on earth and graded each and every single one in various works using the science of hadith this is a simple fact.

Imam Suyuti collected 72 books, which are all the books on earth containing Hadith, into one book called “Al-Jami Al-Kabeer”.

By the time of Baihaki (died 456 A.H.), every Hadith in a verbal form was written down in a well known book, so after him, no one could come up with a Hadith.

i find your asertions to be misinformed and grandur and fail to see how you fail to comprahend that the work has been done. A simple fact of hadith science is that the muhadith must himself collect the hadith from the person who has the chain going back to the prophet becouse of this our scholars traveled far and wide to collect these hadith and grade them. Every hadith has recieved a grading from one scholar or another they where not simply recorded in books for future grading.

regarding shaykh Albani who you Quote as person who continues the so called development. He is a self taught scholar and has no Qualafications (Ijazah) in the science of hadith so no scholar holds him to be an authority in this science. He learnt all he knows from reading books by himself and not sitting with proper scholars to teach him how to understand those works and therefor gain ijazah in this science.

here is what i left out of the article i posted, which are the words of a proper muhadith Qualafied to speak on this science.

The Hafiz Suyuti Grand Plan

Imam Suyuti collected 72 books, which are all the books on earth containing Hadith, into one book called “Al-Jami Al-Kabeer”.  It contains 42,000 Hadith in alphabetical order, which was later arranged by subject by Al Mutaqi Al-Hindi in a book called “Kanz”.  Al-Hindi then removed the repetition and compiled another book which was called “Muntakhab Kanz” containing about 32,000 Hadith. 

Imam Suyuti selected 1,008 and 4,500 from the 42,000 and called them “Al-Jami Al-Saghir” and “Ziyada” respectfully, which were later compiled by Nabahani into one book called “Al-Fat-h Al-Kabeer” in alphabetical order.

The Wahabi Muhaddith Albani in tackling the first collection he produced it into small booklets, which later was printed together. He committed less than 150 errors in Arabic and more so in indexing. However having only less than 36 errors in Hadith rating, which later were corrected in the next mention work by his puperior non-wahabi Muhadith Al Ghumari. 

The Grand Muhaddith Abdullah ben Siddique Al-Ghumari lead his student Ahmad Darwish to produce the best collection and called it “Rad el-Itibar” which is available on our websites in the corner for young Muhadiths.

At the moment all the Ahadith on earth are classified into 3 collections:  

Collection 1: see layout picture, Arabic introduction and concordances

Managed by Suyuti, Nabahani, Ghumari, Albani, and sealed and finalized by Darwish. Transmitted by (all of you who are interested to be young Muhaddiths), members of Muhammad.com 

14,587 Ahadith broken down as follow:

8,266 authentic (this is over 70% of all authentic Hadith)

4,629 weak (but not false, so it is practiced)

27 of which are Mawkouf (standby)

1,806 false (so it is not practiced)

The above collection is extracted from 30-72 books (including Bukhari and Muslim) and with world consensus of all scholars of Ahadith, even Albani of the Wahabi sect.  Albani differs in 26 Hadith, where he was overruled.  Due to the fact that he either judged some based on his Wahabi inclinations or because he learned the science from books and not transmitters his errors totaled 107. 

At Muhammad.com, you can download the 8,266 in Arabic in one click.   It includes a general ijazah, or traditional authentic permission from Muhaddith Ahmad Darwish, the servant of Hadith.

Also, it is worth noting that this collection is about equal in number to “Jama Al Masool” and “Mishkat al Musabeeh” combined, being short only 289 Ahadith. 

This collection is in a very accurate mechanical, alphabetic order which corrected Albani’s inconsistent numerical ordering.  Also, there is a section that corrects Albani in the 107 places of error.  We kept to the etiquette of the scholars of Hadith and handled his Hadith issues only, keeping away from his Wahabi tendencies.

Also, this collection is in progress of being translated into contemporary English and all are given away free, as is the habit of all scholars of Hadith throughout time.  We hope that the youth will revive the science of Hadith transmission by adhering to this collection. 

Collection 2:

Managed by Suyuti, Mutaqi al-Hindi, Nabahani, Ghumari, and in progress of being sealed and finalized by Darwish and Ninowy.

Approximately 32,000 Hadith of Kanz without repetition, which includes the 14,587 above, leaving approximately 18,000 remaining to be finally researched.  Pray that Sheikh Ahmad receives the success from Allah to be honored to serve it.   

Collection 3:

Managed by Suyuti, Mutaqi al-Hindi superceded by both Collections 1 and 2 and kept for Hadith historical consideration.

46,624 Ahadith, prepared in alphabetical order by Suyuti.  He extracted them from all Hadith books on earth, a total of 72 books, which with repetition comes to some 350,000 Ahadith.  Mutakil Hindi later removed the repetition occurring in the 46,624 and arranged them in subjects, thereby reducing Collection 2, and thus superceding both Collections 1 and 2, rendering them for academic research only.  Also worth noting is that production of Collections 1 and 2 were Suyuti’s intention before his passing.  Therefore the scholars who finalized Collections 1 and 2 are true to the service of the Science of Prophetic Quotation according to Suyuti’s profound plan.  Truly he was called the Sheikh of Sunnah, even by the Prophet in several visions. 

The above 350,000 with repetitions spreading in all different directions of the world for the same exact Hadith text, reaching about 1 million.

This means that there are about 35,000 Ahadith trafficking among a million Hadith transmitters, where all are documented, guarded, and well known.  The details are at such a level that if the Prophet said things in two ways, or if someone inserted a word, the very location and setting of the statement and who he said it to is known.  And if it is falsified, they know who the liar who started it is and who reported it via him.

here is article if you would like to read it in its entirety.

WhatIsHadithTerminology.doc

some of his many mistakes include declaring ahadith in Bukhari to be Daif (weak) a work which is unanimously agreed upon by all scholars.

what has been going on today is not further grading of the hadith which is what you refered to when you stated that the text of the hadith was ignored and they mainly looked at the chain of naration.

Every hadith has been graded, nothing you Quote or say proves otherwise. our scholars have further written on the subject of hadith but the work has been done in regards to clasafication and grading.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote AhmadJoyia Replybullet Posted: 03 December 2005 at 8:20pm

Dear bro rami, thanks for your valuable information on the recent work of ahadith scholars. It is exactly this process when it is stated “Approximately 32,000 Hadith of Kanz without repetition, which includes the 14,587 above, leaving approximately 18,000 remaining to be finally researched.  Pray that Sheikh Ahmad receives the success from Allah to be honored to serve it. ” to which, I have already alluded to in my previous posts that it is a dynamic process and not a static one. Although, the words like “finally” are used in this statement to indicate completion of a job but, personally speaking, it is yet relatively a temporal term which, may refer to “time being” only. Though his work may serve the future generations as well, but only God knows for how long and when another similar effort is required in future?

The example of sheikh Albani is only for reference purposes where he objected to authenticity of some ahadith, through his own knowledge and rationale. However, his own work, without biasness to his wahaby inclination, got critically analyzed, only through the use of tools of this science logically and not emotionally. Thus serves another example of dynamics of this on-going process.

Now coming to my comments, I think, I have already provided the explanation in my previous post, though I may like to further elaborate to make it even clearer. In my original post to bro DeExpuary, I have used the pronoun “they” to refer only to those scholars of ahadith, who initially transformed the verbal traditions into written form. Here, I gave the example of collection of Ibn Majah and critical analysis on his work by later scholars. Thus, the classification of Ahadith was done by the scholars of later generations. I hope this serves as sufficient explanation. 



Edited by AhmadJoyia
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