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Sign*Reader
 
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2010 at 4:40pm
If you know the history these eight characters were the recipients of Radcliffe Award...They had no power to divide but to demand whatever but there was something else bigger in scope than that these guys that you have overlooked!
It is called the super powers' poker! Those who have the guts, guns and ground resources to setup shop to deal!
If you know then super power Britain's shop was challenged by Hitler's Third Reich to have his shop and so the great war ensued...You should know when the great wars occur the winner takes the chips and resets the order according to his new game rules...
So think what was happening once the blitzkrieg started in Europe and particularly Africa where the allied Americans suffered big! The Allied needed all the men to fight against the Axis forces! British asked the Indian leaders you listed for the men but Indian side refused...So guess what? the Brits told them if the Allied win the war they will get the country called Pakistan! And you should know when the war ended Churchill tried to change his mind on giving full independence to India.... but FDR and Stalin already were running the race to be the new supers and you would know that I reckon...And then Churchill's party lost the election and America wanted a foot on the subcontinent and Indian side being socialists couldn't have the whole thing so down came the Radcliffe Award with its concomitant problems! so it was not in hands of these paper tigers but they were the only ones there standing!
The story is of capitalism vs socialism tug of war run by the money changers people really don't matter they are just slaves and slave drivers and the go between in these paradigms! It is just a game if you can understand!

How ironic the American capitalist brought the American manufacturing assembly line to China on a platter cuz they found there the biggest pool of diligent slave labor to make a killer profits selling the finished goods in America...Giving China by default a shot at being the new super power in very near future leaving America as debtor nation to sort itself out!
Yes lot of American jobs went to India too after Indian changed the policy from socialist to capitalism and market based in last 15 years!

So far Pakistan is concerned people were kept in the dark didn't know any better but being a neo colony for the US against the defunct USSR unwittingly while  Nahru had thrown his lot with USSR! As I said previously Pakistan was not meant to be really independent as many people think, it was gradual thing but now it is in even a bigger hole!
I hope these facts will clarify some of the background for you!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 15 August 2010 at 1:32pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 14 August 2010 at 8:23pm
 I agree Sign.. its a game of chess.. but often the "sides" are not clear cut.

n a song from Stevie Wonder  called Higher Ground he has a line:
Powers keep on lyin' while your people keep on dyin"

It sums it all up....
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Divya_Mohammed Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2010 at 1:22am
Assalam Alaikum
 
I partially accept the views expressed by Sign reader, as the inter-European race for supremacy and resultant world war etc surely influenced a great deal.
 
There is also truth behind power game etc but one thing certain, it has a lot to do with local leaders, who are just as cunning and power hungry as those at the helm of affairs in those richer and powerful countries.
 
It is certainly a fashion to blame rich, powerful nations for all the evils of the developing world, as somehow it convinces our mind more easily to accept that theory than the realisation that our leaders were/are the prime culprits, which were certainly exploited by leaders of the west.
 
For example, I hate the damage that both erstwhile Soviet Union and currently Pakistan and USA are doing in Afghanistan but dont forget, during the intervening period, when these 3 countries did not interfere much in Afghanistan, there were still fighting and killing on the same scale as it now or even more, with different warlords killing innocent people for their own influence and supremacy. 1000 people killed by local hooligans and warlord would be forgotten more easily, in most cases, as compared to 100 guys killed by the foreign powers.
 
I am not defending or condoning the foreign countries atrocities in other countries but i am concerned by selfish domestic leaders from developing world who stoop down to any extent for supremacy.
 
Partition of India was decided during the Round Table conferences and subsequent meetings between the British, Muslim League and the Indian National Congress and Sir Cyril Radcliffe, was just the chairman of the Border Commission, having decided to partition India.
 
Radcliffe's job was to partition the Composite Bengal and the Composite Punjab and allocation of other territories like Gurdaspur District and Chittagong Hill Tracts and Cox Bazaar Area, he fixed a border, arbitarily (Mind within 14 days), diving the natural flow of rivers, cutting across rivers in several places, cutting communication lines, telegraph lines, railways, through villages and even several homes, with one room in Pakistan and other in India.
 
All because of selfish attitudes of the 8 leaders who somehow wanted to occuly positions, even in a truncated land, even at the cost of death of 2 to 3 million people and displacement of 20 million people, forming a new country on religious ground with 2 wings divided by more than 2300 KM , triggering religious hatred, India was divided and the British could not care less, just as the Americans dont care of what damage they do elsewhere.
 
Needless to say that if 220 million Indian minorities could live with dignity and equality along with the majoirty Hindu community surely Composite India would have lived peacefully (bearing few problems) and emerged strong as the Greatest Nation as all people, whether Hindus or Muslims or others are equally patriotic and all want peace and welfare and there is amity and workable balance between the various communities.
 
Imagine the facts that 22% of world population crammed in 2.5% of World land area and more diverse than entire Africa or Europe is making rapid progress on many fronts. India is Great and hope she deserves and gets all the blessings of Allah.
 
The pride of India can be summarised when a Non-Hindu majority Nation-State like Sikkim (Buddhist Majority) volunteered to join the Republic of India by relinquishing its own soverignity through the mechanism of referendum conducted by the then Ruler Chogyal of Sikkim in 1975,  and the tragedy of Pakistan can be seen when the overwhelming Muslim-majority East Pakistan severed all its relations with West Pakistan after a bloody war resulting in genocide conducted by West Pakistani leaders in East Pakistan and the result was Bangladesh in 1971.
 
What happened to the raison-etre of partition ?
 
Just fanning and playing with religious sentiments of people in a negative way, negating the principles of the golden religion Islam and going against all principles of humanity at large and ignoring reality cannot take a nation forward.
,
Allah Hafiz
Divya Mohammed Iyer
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2010 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Divya_Mohammed

Assalam Alaikum
 
I partially accept the views expressed by Sign reader, as the inter-European race for supremacy and resultant world war etc surely influenced a great deal.
 
There is also truth behind power game etc but one thing certain, it has a lot to do with local leaders, who are just as cunning and power hungry as those at the helm of affairs in those richer and powerful countries.
 
It is certainly a fashion to blame rich, powerful nations for all the evils of the developing world, as somehow it convinces our mind more easily to accept that theory than the realisation that our leaders were/are the prime culprits, which were certainly exploited by leaders of the west.
 
For example, I hate the damage that both erstwhile Soviet Union and currently Pakistan and USA are doing in Afghanistan but dont forget, during the intervening period, when these 3 countries did not interfere much in Afghanistan, there were still fighting and killing on the same scale as it now or even more, with different warlords killing innocent people for their own influence and supremacy. 1000 people killed by local hooligans and warlord would be forgotten more easily, in most cases, as compared to 100 guys killed by the foreign powers.
Do you ever hear how many Americans were killed in the civil war/ I am not sure what are you trying to say above what did you expect? It is well known Omar brought stability to the destroyed nation that no other had done by laying down the law!
The west can not tolerate a Sunni nation any where that has three Gs cuz they worked for 13 centuries to get the Islamic Realm down finally from the Ottomans! ...The current invasion is the proof that mullah Omar meant it! 
You forgot to mention India's role in Afghanistan and I wonder what business she has being there unless one flips the hole card and sees the zionist joker!

I am not defending or condoning the foreign countries atrocities in other countries but i am concerned by selfish domestic leaders from developing world who stoop down to any extent for supremacy.
I don't buy this developing label which is a euphemism for slaving in service of western money changers/capitalists/banksters take your pick and it doesn't matter they know how to cook the books...They are doing it in every place they get a chance!  May be you are not aware of they treated most Americans as bad as the so called developing world with the sub-prime scam! The so called leaders are just the glorified pawns in their worship of mammon and Machiavellian game! Just imagine who owns most of the housing in the world the banks and or their puppet lackeys the rulers who just keep printing paper money and never know when the bottom will fall off!
 
Partition of India was decided during the Round Table conferences and subsequent meetings between the British, Muslim League and the Indian National Congress and Sir Cyril Radcliffe, was just the chairman of the Border Commission, having decided to partition India.
For argument sake mind you the meetings are just a drama in politics, the things always get decided in smoke filled rooms!
 
Radcliffe's job was to partition the Composite Bengal and the Composite Punjab and allocation of other territories like Gurdaspur District and Chittagong Hill Tracts and Cox Bazaar Area, he fixed a border, arbitarily (Mind within 14 days), diving the natural flow of rivers, cutting across rivers in several places, cutting communication lines, telegraph lines, railways, through villages and even several homes, with one room in Pakistan and other in India.
 but lot of money and jewels changed hands for Gurdaspur to make it east of the line...Cuz to give strategic access to Kashmir in case of military campaign that was left hanging cuz As you noted for Pandat Nehru being Kashmiri Brahman and Scorpio had plans up his sleeve !
If the referendum had Gurdaspur marked Pakistani territory how did it end up otherwise! With almost non existing independent communications the Brit Radcliffe had the full control who got what? At the last moment the Hindu capitalist won the plum but with rot!

Would you like me to tell you my personal affiliation about Gurdaspur /Dina Nagar thing about my grand pa escaped from the Hindu Sikh rioters who came to loot his mansion but he got out just in time and saw it burnt down from afar!

All because of selfish attitudes of the 8 leaders who somehow wanted to occuly positions, even in a truncated land, even at the cost of death of 2 to 3 million people and displacement of 20 million people, forming a new country on religious ground with 2 wings divided by more than 2300 KM , triggering religious hatred, India was divided and the British could not care less, just as the Americans dont care of what damage they do elsewhere.
THE STANDARD POLITICAL MANTRA DIVIDE,  CONQUER AND RULE, NOW WITH REMOTE CONTROL! What better scenario they could expect than these two opposite camps parties! The British worked with Hindus in administrating the colony with some exceptions in the form of Nawab states or borderline Muslims! Just look at who murdered Gandhi a fanatic Hindu NathuRam Gadse! If you read his court rant it is one of the most chilling mindset of the Hindu extremists you can find anywhere! 
 
Needless to say that if 220 million Indian minorities could live with dignity and equality along with the majoirty Hindu community surely Composite India would have lived peacefully (bearing few problems) and emerged strong as the Greatest Nation as all people, whether Hindus or Muslims or others are equally patriotic and all want peace and welfare and there is amity and workable balance between the various communities.*****
This is a recent thing in last century the Hindu forces were just too belligerent to let that happen...Lot has happened since that time! The world has gone upside down! India lost war against the new rising star China,  The USSR fell apart, Third Reich burnt down, British super power status dissolved, America is broke, Europe is struggling, Indian politics finally realized that after all if they are going to attract the overseas capital and work they need to change the Hindutva style attitude and things will move! You gonna work on the assembly line check your religion at the door or the capitalist don't make the profits!
Imagine the facts that 22% of world population crammed in 2.5% of World land area and more diverse than entire Africa or Europe is making rapid progress on many fronts. India is Great and hope she deserves and gets all the blessings of Allah.
I think India learned fast from the China model who checked the communism at door too and joined the club! But in the long run it is the strong tribal instincts that takes the helm to win the global game! It needs to uplift all in physical health that is where India has its work cut out...

Did you ever look at India's performance at the Olympics ? It is a great yard stick to see where you stand in getting the nation up there health and fitness! Unless it can clean house of its caste system all they can work will be third rate!

 
The pride of India can be summarised when a Non-Hindu majority Nation-State like Sikkim (Buddhist Majority) volunteered to join the Republic of India by relinquishing its own soverignity through the mechanism of referendum conducted by the then Ruler Chogyal of Sikkim in 1975,  and the tragedy of Pakistan can be seen when the overwhelming Muslim-majority East Pakistan severed all its relations with West Pakistan after a bloody war resulting in genocide conducted by West Pakistani leaders in East Pakistan and the result was Bangladesh in 1971.
The case of Bangla desh is nothing but was a case exploitation of the labor what Brits were doing during colonial periods and they were just right to stand up be counted! Agian working for the industrialist and capitalists same paradigm and now they are doing for themselves and are doing for better wages! The people were not involved in the so called partition they just went along for what ever!
 
What happened to the raison-etre of partition ?
It was process without any specific plan! Like a fiefdom of the selected Nawabs , Land owners and don't forget the veterans of the WWII who thought raison-etre were  them... the quid pro quo of the promise to fight entitled them that which resulted in so many army generals ruling the place... even Governor Generals(Jinnah and others) were under the crown in the first place! The whole thing was a joke!
Just fanning and playing with religious sentiments of people in a negative way, negating the principles of the golden religion Islam and going against all principles of humanity at large and ignoring reality cannot take a nation forward.
True, but that will apply when the the place will be truly free from the lackeys!

Allah hafiz
 

BTW Can you explain this I saw in LA Times this morning!*****

In India's Jammu and Kashmir state, rocks are weapon of choice

For a generation of angry young men caught up in a decades-long territorial dispute, lobbing stones in protest has proved deadly, as some Indian forces respond with bullets.

WHY? THIS AFTER SIX DECADES THESE GUYS DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF INDIA! SURE BLAME PAKILAND BUT IT DOESN'T SOUND PRACTICAL IN BLAMING ANYMORE, THEY GOT ENOUGH TROUBLE OF THEIR OWN... IF EVERY THING IS AS ROSY YOU SAID BUT THESE ROCK THROWERS ARE PAINTING A PICTURE LOOKING MORE LIKE PALESTINIANS IN WEST BANK!Disapprove


Tensions%20in%20Kashmir

Edited by Sign*Reader - 16 August 2010 at 3:03am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2010 at 7:07pm


I don't think India has earned the bragging rights yet!

 How is this possible for a great nation to be?

I think India has a long way to go from that, May be some day! BTW I have nothing against India but you know the caste system will need a revolution to get rid off and then may be! Being  cheap programmers and other stuff don't cut the mustard yet!
This one from New York Times! which is quite pro India paper in the US....
The pictures are quite sickening to look at in this month of Ramadan!

India Asks, Should Food Be a Right for the Poor?

Lynsey Addario for The New York Times

Meera Damore sat with her severely malnourished son, Pappu, in the Jhabua District government hospital in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh. More Photos



Edited by Sign*Reader - 17 May 2011 at 4:55pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2010 at 7:33pm
Originally posted by Divya_Mohammed

Assalam Alaikum,
   but I have absolutely no sympathy at all. They are reaping the fruits of what they sowed years back. I do not blame anyone else but Pakistan for its current crisis.


Wa'alaikum salaam,

That is a pretty strong thing to say sister!

 
It is a bizzare tragic coincidence that my most beautiful nation India was divided 63 years back on the night of this very same day and Pakistan was created out of an erstwhile composite India. [ night of 14th August 1947 ]


That is your opinion as an Indian sister. Approximately 160 million Pakistanis disagree with you and are happy with the partition. We Pakistanis feel sad about losing West Pakistan to "Bangladesh" - (thanks to Indian efforts) - but we have come to terms with that fact, and accept Bangladesh as a sovereign nation, wishing them all the best.

I think it is about time Indians did what we did with Bangladeshis and came to terms with the Indian partition too. It has after all been 63 years, how much more time do they need? The fact remains that there was a pretty large percentage of Muslims living in India who were not happy to live as part of composite India, and wanted to live in a Muslim majority country.

 
 
  I pray to Allah that no nation on the planet should be bifurcated by force, especially for people of just one religious community at the right and expense of people of religious minorities.


It wasn't "by force" sis, it is what we Pakistanis chose for ourselves.  My grandparents from both sides willingly migrated from India to Pakistan. Nobody forced them. They left their property and wealth behind, to start a new life as Pakistanis. Why? because they thought it was better for us to live in a Muslim majority country where we can live an easier life as a Muslim. It was not at the expense of religious minorites.... if anything, had the Pakistanis remained in India, they would have remained a minority compared to the majority Hindus. But as a separate nation, we enjoy certain benefits that we would not have enjoyed as Indian Muslims. I believe just last year due to the Mumbai Attacks or riots there was pressure on the muslims not to celebrate eid ul Azha. Clerics in India caution Muslims not to slaughter cows on Eid out of respect for the Hindus etc etc. I don't have the energy right now to dig in our neighbor's closet. Partially because I don't want to get into an argument over nationalities with a fellow Muslim sister - and a new one at that. So lets just leave it at that shall we Smile


 
 
We, the minorities [ all including Muslims ]  in India are surely far far better in comparison to the plight of minorities in Pakistan or Bangladesh and even the majority Muslims of Pakistan and Bangladesh in every religious, social and economic front.


Babri Masjid ? Gujrat riots? Treatment of lower caste Dalits?

PS: I agree with Sign-Reader's last post about "bragging rights", and he isnt too fond of Pakistan himself Wink. Its both amazing and amusing how Indians like to brag about how great their nation is when it has a closet full of its own issues. Some are simply relentless. A visiting lecturer of mine started a debate about the Partition (or like we say 'independence') while in the cafeteria with only 15minutes to class... I was too polite to say what I said in this post i.e. it has been 63 years, please move on! For most of our neighbors its like a bad break-up that they refuse to get over...


 
 
 


Edited by Chrysalis - 15 August 2010 at 7:46pm
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 15 August 2010 at 10:06pm
I tend to think that nationalism is a big problem for we Muslims. Allah gave us many gifts- with different cultural aspects that we all enjoy. I for one like being in the US as I was raised to be independent and this society allows me to do so. I felt very stifled living in Pakistan. And I know Pakistanis that were miserable in the west and just wanted to go back "home." There is nothing wrong with that enjoyment and grateful to Allah.

But I do think it is not helpful to we Muslim to place that over supporting others no matter where they are. No matter about the politics of t he Indian and Pakistani divide we are all human beings on earth and will be tested.

but I have absolutely no sympathy at all. They are reaping the fruits of what they sowed years back. I do not blame anyone else but Pakistan for its current crisis.

I too agree sister these are strong words. Its not about "blame" dear sister its a test for all, a test for those people, a test of those who could help (are we) and a test for those who have potential ill-will to find compassion in their hearts. Cause dear sister this could easily happen in India or any other place in the world. Allah will show us mercy if we show others mercy.

I agree Sign, India must deal with its caste system and its money-lending system which puts families into debts for generations.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Divya_Mohammed Replybullet Posted: 16 August 2010 at 3:12am
Assalam Alaikum
 
This subject is too complex and sure, we can debate endlessly.  At least we can do one thing together, that is to pray to Allah Almighty that peace  and progress exists for all people, irrespective of religious affinities in all three countries.
 
Few years back, I met an elderly Pakistani (Muslim)  in the Indian train and we had discussed for a long time and he was explaining to me how much he wanted to be in India and settle back and take up Indian Citizenship but cannot do it, before his death in his earlier village that he left in India, while moving to Pakistan. His stories were soul-searching and even my mother was not born then.
 
I am happy you mentioned that no one forced your family  but all were not lucky like that, for all those who migrated from Pakistan to india or from india to Pakistan. There was systematic ethnic cleansing.
 
There was a private survey done and almost all respondents , who included many Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs  and others; all had unanimous opinion that no one wants Pakistan or Bangladesh back at all. Surely India and Indians  accepts the reality of Pakistan and Bangladesh .
 
Also the concept of Nationhood or affinity for language or culture cannot be wished away. They will always stand alongside religions and one's commitment to God.
 
Let there be peace and progress and let us pray for that !
 
Allah Hafiz
Divya Mohammed
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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