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Prophets - Jesus
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Prophets - Jesus
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haris30432
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:42pm

You sound like a pouting child who just wants to repeat the same nonsense over and over again.  I already refuted your bogus claim regarding 3:81.  What a shock that God did not mention the "messenger" who would ultimately reveal the great miracle contained in the Quran!  Shocked 

 
Oh yeah ,my apologies for repeating it to you..Shouldve remembered the below verses.

[6:39] Those who reject our proofs are deaf and dumb, in total darkness. Whomever GOD wills, He sends astray, and whomever He wills, He leads in a straight path.

[43:40] Can you make the deaf hear; can you make the blind see, or those who are far astray?

And for your info.. u didnt refute anything except use 3:84 to claim that since it doesnt include Muhammad 3:81 should be talking about Muhammad.This is nothing but nonsense as far as i see.3:81 clearly talks about a covenant taken from the Prophets and 33:7 also talks about the same covenant so its very clear to me that the verses are related and the messenger in 3:81 is RK.


Edited by haris30432 - 13 May 2010 at 4:33am
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haris30432
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2010 at 12:52pm
That is why encoding the Quran with a numerical miracle does not make any sense.  The Arabs were master poets and that is why the Quran was a miracle, as these Arabs could not imitate it. 
Unfortunately again u fail to see light.So ur saying that the challenge and the miracle of the Quran is the richness and beauty of the Arabic in it???Well in that case the challenge wuld only apply to those who know Arabic.What relevance would this challenge have to the non arabs???How does this challenge apply to the non arabs???!!What is the point in challenging to produce a Surah in Arabic to over 95 percent of the world population when they dont speak arabic or have nothing to do with it???!So clearly.. the miraculous or unimitatable aspect of the Quran cannot be just Arabic.....
 
 
Quran is still a miracle and will always continue to be so till  Yaumul Qiyamah... ofcourse only for those who believe!!
 
 
Concerning 10:20, it is yet another mistranslation.  The key word is "Ghaib", which means the "unseen" not the "future". 
 
If only you could quit nitpicking and look properly,u would see how that doesnt necessarily change the meaning of the verse in a big way.However,Im pretty much sure that if these translators knew anything about the math miracle of the Quran and the time of its revelation, they wouldve translated it exactly the way God intended it to be.
 

 


Edited by haris30432 - 13 May 2010 at 5:58am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2010 at 1:07pm

The meanings of the initials have been conjectured upon, but their ultimate meaning is left to God.  Obviously, they were not meant to be clear.
 
Ok so i think now u acknowledge that GOD did not reveal every thing in the Quran to Prophet Muhammad.In many verses (10:1,12:1,13:1,15:1,26:2,27:1) God called them signs or proofs of the Quran.It would make no sense at all for GOD to say that these initials are signs or proofs of the scripture if he never wanted anyone to know HOW??????!The fact is GOD does not make false proclamations in the Quran.God revealed this amazing miracle  in 1974 exactly 1406(19x74) lunar years after the Quran's revealation.And surprisingly the reference of the miracle of "19" happens to be Surah "74" titled the "Hidden one" or "Hidden Secret" !!
 
 
 
The word in 13:1 is "ayat" which does not mean "letters" but "verses".  This is another example of Khalifa altering the meaning to fit his own views.

The word Ayah has many meanings such as verses ,signs,proofs etc.. if u dont know it please check a dictionary or other translations."Letters" in the translation are in brackets refering to Alef,Lam,Ra which i assume u know are Arabic letters or alphabets..Read carefully please.

 




Edited by haris30432 - 13 May 2010 at 6:25am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:19pm
Well.. i think u actually called atleast 6 out of 9 translations you presented initially as unclear and ambiguous and thats not "some" to me.


Wrong again!  My response was to your presentation of the translation by Pickthall.  How is that referring to all the others? 

Besides that, you were forced to admit that they are unclear and ambiguous only becoz you couldnt provide a logical explanation as to why jesus would be a witness against the POB when all of them would eventually believe in him.


I already provided an explanation of the verse.  In addition, I have checked other sources and it seems that the scholars were divided on the exact meaning of the verse, and this included even the Sahabah.  According to Maududi:

"...the purpose of the verse would be to affirm that at the time when the physical death of Jesus takes place, all the living 'People of the Book' would have come to believe in him (i.e. in his prophethood). Alternatively, the verse would mean that the prophethood of Jesus will become manifest to every person among the People of the Book just before he dies so that they will believe in him, but at a time when believing would be of no avail. Both these views have been supported by several Companions, Successors and outstanding scholars of Qur'anic exegesis. The truth of the matter is best known to God alone."

As you can see, there were varying opinions as to the actual meaning of the verse, and this would explain why modern translations vary as well.  What is clear, however, is that all the Sahabah agreed that the verse was talking about future events and was not referring to the Jews at the time of Jesus' mission.  I will prove this further below.

You simply came up with your own interpretation of the translations in a desperate attempt to make sense to them.And as if to cover up the exposure of the nonsense in these translations, you then decided to divert the topic of discussion here from Jesus's return to Rashad's messengership and the math miracle.


LOL The diversion and desperation were on your part, as you could not prove the validity of RK's translation.  So, to compensate, you simply went into overdrive to show that the translations varied from translator to translator and therefore, it was they who were wrong!  This is clearly a fallacy. 

Much more reputable???On what basis??majority opinion??Or becoz they all some how validate centuries old hearsays??.One would only require the words " Wa-in min  and "illalayu/minanna" from the verse to understand that the translators have clearly mistranslated the verse.The word"illalayu/minanna" as correctly pointed out by one of the forum members(seeks hidayath) is in imperfect tense.
 

LOLLOL More hilarious comments!  So now you want to say that the verse is in the imperfect tense?  Seekshidayath was refuting your claim that the verse was in past tense!  Yet you still cling to your notion that the verse is talking about the past and to support that, you use an example from the English language?  How silly of you!  English and Arabic are very different languages, in case you are not aware.  The imperfect tense in Arabic is NOT the same as past tense.  Rather, it is the perfect tense which is the equivalent of the past tense.  According to MultimediaQuran:

"There are two main tenses in the Arabic language. 1.Perfect Tense, 2.Imperfect Tense or the Present Tense. The action is completed in the perfect tense. You may also call this as the past tense because the action is completed before the present so it belongs to the past. For example, one may say, "I ate". The action of eating was finished in the past. The past could be a few minutes or a few decades before the present time. Alternately, in the second tense, i.e., the imperfect, the action is still continuing. For example, you knock on the door and walk in. You see he is eating his meal. He says to you, "I am eating". The action is still continuing, he is still eating while talking to you. This is the present tense in English. It is also the "imperfect tense" in Arabic. You look at the table above and locate the pronoun "I" on the left column and follow it to the right to the "imperfect" column. You will see the verb, "aakulu". It means, "I am eating" or "I eat".

What about the future tense? Well, there is not such a thing as the future tense in Arabic. This is done by adding the prefix "sa" to the imperfect form of the verb. For example, let's look at the table above to find out the imperfect form of the verb "akala". It is "ya'kulu". Add the prefix "sa" to the "ya'kulu" you get, "saya'kulu" which means "He will eat"."

This proves once and for all that the verse is not talking in the past tense, as RK claimed.  Therefore, while the other translations differ in the wording and some are rather ambiguous, what we do know for sure is that they are at least not translating the verse in the past tense, which would be simply wrong.  Do yourself a favor and do some research on the Arabic language.    

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:25pm
Yeah but to many now it seems as RK's translation clearly exposes how  the traditional interpretation of the Quran has nothing to do with the Quran itself but with heresays and stories written down hundreds of years after the Prophet's departure.


Perhaps to those who don't know enough about the language itself, such as yourself.  RK has been exposed as a fraud so many times.  I will show more examples of why he was a fraud and a liar.  Keep reading!

How is that any relevant?? What do u think normally happens to a dead body??


Well, for one thing, it gets buried in a tomb!  And yet, there is no evidence of his tomb ever being found.  There are traditions galore about the burial places of the previous prophets and messengers, including Ibrahim and Moses (peace be upon them), but no such tradition exists with regard to Jesus (pbuh), unless of course you believe the other heretical sect known as the Ahmadiyyas. 

Also, the body does not completely disintegrate.  You would still find bones. 

Ah guess work! Now thats typical!


There is no guess work about it!  Allah (swt) clearly had much more planned for Jesus.  Why else was he chosen to be the Messiah (al-Masih)? 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:52pm
Your statement  shows not just ur EGO but also your ignorance as well.RK was not sent to finish any unfinished business of Prophet Muhammad.His mission was something different which ofcourse you have not studied at all.And with the atittude that u are displaying im pretty much sure you wouldnt  be interested or even understand it.And so i dont wish to elaborate this matter here at this point and waste my precious time.


If RK had to be sent to finally reveal the great miracle contained in the Quran, which Muhammad (pbuh) brought to the world, than the logical conclusion is that it was RK's job to complete the full revelation of the Quran.  Not only that, RK even claimed that he was the representation of the Messiah and the Mahdi!  But wait a minute.  The concept of the Mahdi is found only in the Hadiths!  Didn't RK reject the Hadiths?  Before you say that RK never claimed to be the representation of the Messiah and the Mahdi, read the following on the Submitters website:

"Through Gabriel, I was commanded to make this announcement: after I die, millions of believers will know that I represent the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for, the Christ Christians have been expecting, the Mehdi the Muslims have been praying for.  I am God's messenger of the Covenant."

The website than makes the claim that none of these figures are to ever come (it should be pointed out that the Messiah and the Christ are the same figure) and that RK's arrival was actually predicted in the Quran, which contradicts what you have said.  This guy was clearly a liar and that is why the believers rightfully reject him.

It sounds like you are planning on running away!  Your words are crystal clear! Wink

You have further displayed your EGO ,ignorance and disobedience to GOD by calling Prophet Muhammad the greatest messenger of GOD when GOD clearly commands believers not to make any distinction amoung the messengers of GOD(2:136,2:285,3:84,4:150,152).God alone has the right to give ranks to his messengers not his servants.


Yes you are right.  I will retract that part of my statement.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2010 at 1:59pm
Since you have bothered to research some of RK's material ,i would also advice you to take the same enthusiasm and interest in finding the reasons to why the above was preached by RK.  Over 70 reasons atleast hav been presented as proofs to support the exclusion of the false verses which also includes non mathematical ones.


Screw his reasons!  I am more interested in why he contradicts the revelation he claimed to be upholding?  The Quran says that Allah would protect it from corruption.  So how in the hell did Satan manage to introduce two false verses?  This blasphemous statement further exposes RK as a false messenger and a liar! 

Furthermore, there is no historical evidence that any verses were added to the Quran.  It has been preserved in the exact condition as it was revealed.  RK knew this but he was so convinced by his ego that he was the messenger of God and that there was a code in the Quran, that he was willing to alter the accepted history. 

As for the temporary GOD thing, reasons for that also have been included in the appendices of RK's translation and is also easily available for verification online.


All of that is unnecessary as the whole idea of a "temporary god" runs counter to the message of the Quran.  There is no "temporary god".  There is only the One, True God, Allah.  That is it.  RK introduced a foreign concept into the divine text, and became a liar and blasphemer.  Allah will judge him as He pleases. 

I can see that you have no real responses to these embarrassing and shocking truths regarding RK.  I would advise you to review your links to his false cult.  He was lying to you and to all of his followers.  Do not be a pawn in his heretical schemes. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2010 at 2:05pm
Prophet Muhammad had never studied the previous scriptures yet he spoke of Jesus,Moses,David,Abraham etc etc..coz such information contained in the Quran.However,he was not supported by any other miracles other than the scripture like Jesus,Moses etc...


But the ultimate miracle of the Quran was unknown to him.  The miracle of the Quran was that it could not be imitated.  You interpret that as referring to the code.  He had no idea that such a code existed.  How then was the Quran a proof of his prophethood?

Yeah well then how are they any good to be presented as proofs to disprove another translation ??And also you simply have now admitted that you picked up translations, the majority of which are unclear and ambiguous and which contain errors to prove that Jesus is returning.One can easily see how ridiculous it is!
 

First of all, we are talking about one specific verse!  Just because there are variations on that one verse does not mean we should reject all translations.  At least those translations got the grammar right, unlike the liar RK.  One can easily see how ridiculous it is to follow that man. Big%20smile 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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