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Prophets - Jesus
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Prophets - Jesus
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haris30432
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 5:48am
So, to do that, God essentially kills him?  Wow.  I said that God may have said this to Jesus sometime before the crucifixion actually took place.  I didn't say anything about future or past tense.  I am saying that sometime before his arrest or perhaps after, God told Jesus of His plans. 
Well it certainly makes more sense than to say GOD put him to sleep.LOL!!However, i would refrain from saying GOD killed his prophet becoz the arabic word used in this verse is not "qathal" meaning kill.
 
And if GOD did say to Jesus about his plans, i dont think he said ." i will put you to sleep "
 
In  Y ali's translation, it says "take thee" and "raise thee".Logically,that means "take your soul and raise your soul".And when u take away the soul of a person,the person is simply dead as far as this world is concerned.
 
 
LOL  Yeah, but Khalifa's claims 1400 years later somehow are more accurate!  Come on...
 
Why cant they be???The truth was there at the time of the Prophet and many years after him.It was however corrupted almost 200 yrs after the Prophet by those who claimed to have recorded his authentic sayings.RK was blessed to prove to the world that Quran alone is the source of religious teachings for Muslims.
 
I am not at all surprised by your statements.The Jews and the Christians also mocked the Prophet Muhammed when he came centruies after Moses and Jesus  reminding them to follow the true teachings of Jesus and Moses and believe in the Quran.They rejected him siting the same reasons.
 

Questioning God's Wisdom*

[6:124] When a powerful proof comes to them, they say, "We will not believe, unless we are given what is given to GOD's messengers!" GOD knows exactly who is best qualified to deliver His message.* Such criminals will suffer debasement at GOD, and terrible retribution as a consequence of their evil scheming.

 


Edited by haris30432 - 04 May 2010 at 5:51am
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haris30432
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:00am
Well, you have really shot yourself in the foot here, because Khalifa translated the word as referring to literal death!

"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done."

It seems that the "messenger of God" was inconsistent.
 
 
Its true that he used the word death in the verse.God teaches us that Sleep is temporary death and waking up is ressurection.This is why he put the word "death" and "ressurects" in his translation.
 

Death and Resurrection:

Every Day*

[6:60] He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done.




Edited by haris30432 - 04 May 2010 at 6:03am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:33am
You are still not making sense.  Why would God go to that length to say Jesus did not really die (when he really did), because the righteous do not really die, but he did not say the same for the other prophets and messengers who also died in the cause of God?
 
I think i already answered this question.First of all ,God does not deny Jesus's death anywhere in the Quran.He only denies his murder by the disbelievers.It is "WE" who have been commanded by GOD not to say that his messengers are DEAD.
 
 
And ive also said before that the reason why GOD specifically chose to clarify Jesus's death in the Quran is becoz there was a dispute and false claims amoung the POB regarding his death.I dont see anywhere in the Quran that there was any dispute or false claims being made regarding the deaths of other Prophets.
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 6:52am

Uh, there is a slight difference in parting the Red Sea with a staff (of course, only because God willed it) and finding a mathematical code using a computer [sarcasm intended].  If Khalifa was a miracle worker, he should have been able to find the code using just a pencil and paper.  Now that would have been a miracle. 

Its not we who decide how a miracle should be revealed.Its GOD who decides.And considering the time and age at which this miracle was revealed im not surprised that the computer became a tool for it.And this miracle ,unlike all other miracles is perpetual and tangible ,can be witnessed by anyone ,anywhere,anytime.

Again im not surprised at your disbelief .

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave Jesus, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

14:11] Their messengers said to them, "We are no more than humans like you, but GOD blesses whomever He chooses from among His servants. We could not possibly show you any kind of authorization, except in accordance with GOD's will. In GOD the believers shall trust.

[7:101] We narrate to you the history of those communities: their messengers went to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe in what they had rejected before. GOD thus seals the hearts of the disbelievers.

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 10:16am
The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book to the people.  How could he do that if God did not fully reveal all the details of the Book?  Muhammad (pbuh) did know how the universe was created, and hence he knew about the Big Bang Theory.  Did he know it literally as the "Big Bang"?  Of course not!  Similarly, if there was a code in the Quran and it was supposed to be interpreted as proof of the divine origin of the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh) would have been told about it and he would have told his followers who would have been looking for it from the start.  But, the whole idea of looking for a code is preposterous.  Do you think God would want us to spend our precious time in this life looking for codes in the Quran OR to spend it actually reading the Quran and understanding its wisdom?  
 
The Quran also says that GOD is the teacher of the Quran and that Muhammad was to teach nothing other than the Quran(69:43-46).So its clear that GOD taught and Muhammad simply delivered what he was taught.
 

[5:99] The sole duty of the messenger is to deliver the message, and GOD knows everything you declare and everything you conceal.

[36:17] "Our sole mission is to deliver the message."

God may or may not have given the details of the code to Muhammad.We dont have any historical records of it.However, if everything that needs to be extracted from the Quran had already been taught to Muhammad and he delivered it to people,then i dont see any point in GOD repeatedly asking people to study the Quran.

Nobody went looking for any codes in the Quran.It all started when Dr Khalifa wanted to translate the Quran and came accross the Quranic Initials.He did not straight away go looking for any codes,instead went through historical recordings to see if there were any clear explanations to the Quranic initials.None of the scholars had any clear idea what  and why the Quranic intials are present for.Dr Khalifa's curiosity led him to put the whole Quran in the computer and check if  there were any mathematical phenomenon and thats how the Math Miracle of the Quran was discovered.It was all part of God's perfect plan.
The discovery of the computer has also been prophecised in the Quran and that it will warn people.
 
 

The Computer Is The Creature*

[27:82] At the right time, we will produce for them a creature, made of earthly materials, declaring that the people are not certain about our revelations.

*27:82 (2+7+8+2 = 19) The computer was required to unveil the Quran's mathematical miracle, and it proved that most people have discarded God's message

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 10:22am
This makes no sense.  How could they have come and yet not be fulfilled?
 
The Quran contains all the details of the signs of the last hour.This is why GOD said that the signs have come when the Quran was revealed.I hope it is clear now.
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2010 at 12:58pm
Proven wrong???!!LOL!I didnt see any proof from you.You only presented some translations which are contradicting themselves as your proof that the verse is in the furture tense.I find internet translators far more reliable than those unclear ,ambiguous translations(as u urself called them).Break down the first part of the verse(arabic text) and force the translator to give you the correct tense(ie, ofcourse if u can kill your ego and work to find the truth).Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result.


I showed you several translations which show that the verse has always been interpreted as not being in the past tense, until the arrival of the self-proclaimed "messenger" RK.  You tried to show that RK was right by using an internet translator.  When you were once again refuted, you resorted to attacking the translators for different wordings, as if this somehow proves your initial assertion!  How silly you are! 

The last part you wrote is hilarious!  "Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result"!  LOLLOLLOL  This only shows that you are shabby researcher.  To rely on internet translators is obviously not the way to go, as I have shown. 

By saying" the translations differ in meaning" i was only proving your claim that everyone except RK was going in one direction as wrong.The so-called reputed translators do not have a common understanding in this particular  subject and it is very clear to any1 who studies them.So please dont claim that they are all going one way !!


Um, they are going one way because none of them interpreted the verse as being in the past tense!  RK is alone in this regard!

The claim here is that this verse indicates the return of Jesus.Now if Jesus returns and proves to the world that he was never KILLED OR CRUCIFIED,WHY WUD THEY NOT BELIEVE??!!!!! .There shouldnt be a case of "if they dont believe" at all after his return.Or may be Mr.Yusuf Ali unlike Mr .Shakir doesnt believe in his return....LOL.
 

Again, you are only speculating.  It is perfectly possible that some people would still refuse to believe in him.  That has been the case before.  Weren't there unbelievers among the Jews, even after they witnessed the miracles performed by Moses?  We could ask the same question.  Why wouldn't they have believed? 

All of those who believed and will believe in what Jesus preached are those who are being addressed as "those who follow thee" in this verse.


OK, so how does this prove that Jesus is not coming back? 


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 07 May 2010 at 1:08pm
Well it certainly makes more sense than to say GOD put him to sleep.LOL!!However, i would refrain from saying GOD killed his prophet becoz the arabic word used in this verse is not "qathal" meaning kil;


Hilarious!  Either God took his life (i.e. killed him) or He actually just raised him up alive.  The latter makes more sense, as why would God kill His own prophet?  Why didn't He do that with the other prophets and messengers who were killed by the unbelievers? 

And if GOD did say to Jesus about his plans, i dont think he said ." i will put you to sleep " 
In  Y ali's translation, it says "take thee" and "raise thee".Logically,that means "take your soul and raise your soul".And when u take away the soul of a person,the person is simply dead as far as this world is concerned.


Then what happened to his body?!  Clearly, he was raised body and soul to God. 

Why cant they be???The truth was there at the time of the Prophet and many years after him.It was however corrupted almost 200 yrs after the Prophet by those who claimed to have recorded his authentic sayings.RK was blessed to prove to the world that Quran alone is the source of religious teachings for Muslims.


Yeah, and he failed to prove that he was sent by God, and to compensate, he simply tried to change the meaning of the Quran.  He was simply just another one of the many liars that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) warned would arise in the Ummah. 

I am not at all surprised by your statements.The Jews and the Christians also mocked the Prophet Muhammed when he came centruies after Moses and Jesus  reminding them to follow the true teachings of Jesus and Moses and believe in the Quran.They rejected him siting the same reasons.


Except the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) brought proof.  He also showed that the Jews and Christians' own books pointed to his arrival.  Does the Quran point to the arrival of another messenger?  Absolutely not!  That is why the Qadianis, the Submitters and all the other groups who claimed that messengers came after Muhammad (pbuh) are rightly labeled as heretics.  The Quran says that he was the last to come, so right there is evidence that RK was a liar.  You tried to prove that was not the case by changing the difference between a prophet and a messenger, but to no avail.


Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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