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Prophets - Jesus
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:04pm
You claimed that majority of the translators have interpreted it in one way but as far as i see there is clearly a difference in understanding  of this  verse amoung the  majority of scholars.Some translated it as "will believe and some as "must believe".I dont see how these interpretations become one way??!You called all of them reputed first(I cant still understand on what basis) and then u said some are unclear and ambiguous and now you are saying that they are not 100 percent perfect.Do us a favour and compare the translations of the so called reputed translators first and then tell us which one is the correct one.


Your contention was that the verse was speaking in the past tense.  When you were proven wrong, you switched gears and stated that "well, the translations differ in the meaning", as if this somehow proves your original contention and immediately makes Khalifa's translation more accurate.  Of course, the reality is that it doesn't. 

As I said, there is no translation on earth which can be said to be 100% error-proof.  Translations are the works of men, and sometimes, the text of the Quran is difficult to render into modern language.  This explains why some translations differ on the meaning.  It depended on the translator's understanding.  What is clear is that the verse is not in the past tense, as you and Khalifa claimed.   

The actual Arabic text  doesnt say anything like " and if they dont believe".You are adding words to the verse  and trying to make sense to the translation.The fact remains that the translations done by the majority makes absolutely no sense.In the first part of their translation of the verse, they put "must believe" or"will believe or whatever,which does not at all make any sense since the second part of the verse simply says "he will be a witness against them".If Jesus returns ,i dont see a reason y the POB shouldnt believe in him.Or are u saying that some amoung the POB will not believe in him????!!Does verse say that???!It is  therefore very clear and anyone with minimum inteligence will understand that the second part will only make perfect sense leaving no confusion, if the first part of the verse was translated as  something like"Everyone amoung the POB was to believe in him.
  

Where did I add to the verse?  All I said was that according to Yusuf Ali's translation, the verse says that the people of the book must believe in Jesus and that he would be a witness against them.  Logically, this means that he will be a witness against them if they don't believe.  The verse does not literally say that but since you have been harping about "context", I would advise you to look at the context here.  The logical conclusion is that if they don't believe, he will be a witness against them for their erroneous beliefs.

All of them will believe???Well God didnt say that so i wonder where u got that idea from.In the below verse 3:55 GOD clearly says that he will exalt those who follow or believe him above those who disbelieve TILL the day of judgement and that their dispute regarding Jesus's death will remain till the Day of Judgement.If all of the POB believed then there shouldnt be a reason for dispute and no reason for GOD to judge them regarding their dispute on the day of Judgement.This is another clear indication that Jesus will not return before the day of Judgement coz if he did and showed himself alive,there is no reason for disbelieving nor reason for dispute!! its as simple as that!And anyone who is denying this Quranic truth is only doing so becoz of ignorance and EGO,nothing else!!


3:55 is talking about the people in Jesus' time, not those in the future.  Context Haris, please.  In the future, all of the people of the book may believe in him when they realize that Islam is the correct religion.  Who are the ones that believe in him that God refers to in the verse, in your opinion?

Well otherwise it simply wouldnt make anysense.If so,please explain why would GOD suddenly raise a messenger of GOD up to him if he wasnt in any dangerous situation??Why would GOD terminate a messenger's mission just like that?? Why would GOD raise him up and rid him off the disbelievers for no good reason??.The disbelievers were there all the time when Jesus was preaching GOD's message.So why all of a sudden GOD chose to raise him and rid him off the disbelievers if nothing serious happened to him????


Um, because it came to the point where they had decided to kill him and were hell-bent on capturing him to do so?  That makes sense to me.  Just because he was in danger does not mean he was on the verge of death.  According to most accounts, he was put on trial first.  So even when he was captured, his life was not in imminent danger.  Only after the trial was his life in danger, as he was sentenced to death. 

Jesus was clearly in danger and thats y God chose to raise him up and rid him off the aggressing disbelievers.And the verse is certainly not in future tense so clearly GOD was not talking days before the incident.Therefore, It takes only common sense to understand that GOD was speaking to Jesus when he was either arrested or put on cross to be crucified by the disbelievers.
 

So, to do that, God essentially kills him?  Wow.  I said that God may have said this to Jesus sometime before the crucifixion actually took place.  I didn't say anything about future or past tense.  I am saying that sometime before his arrest or perhaps after, God told Jesus of His plans. 

Again i dont see any other reason other than ignorance and EGO for anyone to deny the fact that "Mutawafeeka" in this particular context means putting to death.And i perfectly understand y you see RK's translation inferior to others coz  his translation is not based on some hearsays written down by someone centuries back ,years after the Prophet's death, many of which you guys dont even still know if is "authentic or unauthentic".


LOL  Yeah, but Khalifa's claims 1400 years later somehow are more accurate!  Come on...



Edited by islamispeace - 24 April 2010 at 4:08pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:13pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 
When and where  did i say that the word does not mean sleep at all??My claim was that the correct meaning of the word can only be understood when the context of the verse is taken into consideration.In this particular verse since the words "night,"day" "raise" etc are present  it is very clear that GOD is talking about sleep.


Well, you have really shot yourself in the foot here, because Khalifa translated the word as referring to literal death!

"He is the One who puts you to death during the night, and knows even the smallest of your actions during the day. He resurrects you every morning, until your life span is fulfilled, then to Him is your ultimate return. He will then inform you of everything you had done."

It seems that the "messenger of God" was inconsistent.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by haris30432

This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.
 

[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*

The verse is not directed to Jesus(since he was not KILLED) alone but to all the righteous people,any one who lost their life in the cause of GOD or as i understand anyone who died while striving in the cause of GOD.I was only using this verse to show that this may be the reason y GOD did not specifically say that "JESUS IS DEAD".!!


You are still not making sense.  Why would God go to that length to say Jesus did not really die (when he really did), because the righteous do not really die, but he did not say the same for the other prophets and messengers who also died in the cause of God?
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:21pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers".
 
Oh come on !this is like saying that Moses couldnt have performed the miracle if he did not use the staff.And you know very well that the Bible code is nothing but a man made code so lets not get into that.The Mathematical code in the Quran has simple facts in them which do not even require any adding.subtracting or multiplication.I had presented the simple facts before in this forum you may look at them if u want.And like i said before,the hypocrites were eagerly propogating this miracle initially.They did not see anything wrong in the code when they witnessed it intially,but when their disbelief in the Quran was exposed,they started opposing it.This is nothing but EGO!!.
 

[98:4] In fact, those who received the scripture did not dispute until the proof was given to them.

Uh, there is a slight difference in parting the Red Sea with a staff (of course, only because God willed it) and finding a mathematical code using a computer [sarcasm intended].  If Khalifa was a miracle worker, he should have been able to find the code using just a pencil and paper.  Now that would have been a miracle. 

By the way, I never said that the Bible Code is real.  I was just pointing out the flaws in your argument.  Incidentally, researchers have found "codes" in Moby Dick which speak of the assassination of Trotzky!

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:33pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??
 
Just becoz there is no historical evidence does not mean that Muhammad (Pbuh) did not know what the Quranic Initials were or what the verses really meant.He may have and may not have.And it is GOD who teaches and  chooses what his messenger needs to know and what not.Muhammad (Pbuh) only spoke about things that was taught to him by GOD in the Quran.This code was definitely preserved for the scientifically advanced generation.And what about the BIG BANG theory??!.Many today say that GOD is talking about  it  in the Quran.Did Muhammad know anything about the BIG BANG THEORY??!The Quran as i understand is for all the generations to come and therefore many new information may be derived from the Quran.So that people believe and increase in faith at all times.
 

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.



The Quran clearly says that Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to teach the Book to the people.  How could he do that if God did not fully reveal all the details of the Book?  Muhammad (pbuh) did know how the universe was created, and hence he knew about the Big Bang Theory.  Did he know it literally as the "Big Bang"?  Of course not!  Similarly, if there was a code in the Quran and it was supposed to be interpreted as proof of the divine origin of the Quran, Muhammad (pbuh) would have been told about it and he would have told his followers who would have been looking for it from the start.  But, the whole idea of looking for a code is preposterous.  Do you think God would want us to spend our precious time in this life looking for codes in the Quran OR to spend it actually reading the Quran and understanding its wisdom?    
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by haris30432

Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Right.So??How does that prove that Tawrat only had laws in it and Zabur had only songs in it???You argument is very weak..There is no reference in the Quran which says Tawrat only contained Laws and nothing else.


When did I say that the Tawrat did not contain other stuff?  My point was that a messenger brings a book with laws in it, whereas as a prophet does not bring laws and one of the proofs is that David was given the Zabur, and the Quran never mentions anything regarding any laws in the Zabur.  In fact, it frequently refers to how even the birds "sang" or "celebrated" with David concerning the glory of God. 

You also ignored the other part of my argument.  I pointed out how Muhammad (pbuh) was given scripture and he was both a messenger and a prophet.  Whenever the Quran is mentioned as being brought by him, he is always referred to as a messenger.    
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 24 April 2010 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by haris30432

That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?
 
Id like to make a correction here.The Quran only says that the signs have come, not fulfilled.All the details of the signs of the hour came to us when the Quran was revealed.


This makes no sense.  How could they have come and yet not be fulfilled? 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 04 May 2010 at 3:57am
Your contention was that the verse was speaking in the past tense.  When you were proven wrong, you switched gears and stated that "well, the translations differ in the meaning", as if this somehow proves your original contention and immediately makes Khalifa's translation more accurate.  Of course, the reality is that it doesn't.  
 
Proven wrong???!!LOL!I didnt see any proof from you.You only presented some translations which are contradicting themselves as your proof that the verse is in the furture tense.I find internet translators far more reliable than those unclear ,ambiguous translations(as u urself called them).Break down the first part of the verse(arabic text) and force the translator to give you the correct tense(ie, ofcourse if u can kill your ego and work to find the truth).Dont just put the whole verse coz it will just pick up any translation from the web and give that as a result.I always got "Was" in the result.
 
By saying" the translations differ in meaning" i was only proving your claim that everyone except RK was going in one direction as wrong.The so-called reputed translators do not have a common understanding in this particular  subject and it is very clear to any1 who studies them.So please dont claim that they are all going one way !!
 
 
Where did I add to the verse?  All I said was that according to Yusuf Ali's translation, the verse says that the people of the book must believe in Jesus and that he would be a witness against them.  Logically, this means that he will be a witness against them if they don't believe.
 
The claim here is that this verse indicates the return of Jesus.Now if Jesus returns and proves to the world that he was never KILLED OR CRUCIFIED,WHY WUD THEY NOT BELIEVE??!!!!! .There shouldnt be a case of "if they dont believe" at all after his return.Or may be Mr.Yusuf Ali unlike Mr .Shakir doesnt believe in his return....LOL.
 
 
3:55 is talking about the people in Jesus' time, not those in the future.  Context Haris, please.  In the future, all of the people of the book may believe in him when they realize that Islam is the correct religion.  Who are the ones that believe in him that God refers to in the verse, in your opinion?
 
The verse says GOD will exalt those who follow Jesus above those who dont  "TILL THE DAY OF JUDGEMENT".So clearly it includes those in the future also.Mr.Yusuf Ali's translation says pretty much the same.
 
Surah 3:55 - "Behold! Allah said: O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute."[Yusuf Ali translation]
 
All of those who believed and will believe in what Jesus preached are those who are being addressed as "those who follow thee" in this verse.
 
 
ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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