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Prophets - Jesus
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 20 April 2010 at 3:48pm
The translation that i put in my previous post is one of those whom u called a "reputed" translation.I wonder how it became unclear or ambigous all of a sudden.And as far as i see all of the "reputed" translators have translated the verse almost similarly.


Just because a translation is considered reputable does not mean it is 100& error-proof.  Having said that, I still think that Pickthall's translation is much more reputable and reliable than Khalifa's.  I believe that Khalifa's translation is simply inferior to the many others and that has been proven in this discussion.  When dealing with verses like 4:159, looking at other translations can help us come to a consensus, and keeping the topic of the discussion at heart, we see that the consensus is that it is not in the past tense, which is what you claimed.

The verse as translated by the majority does not appear to be dealing with those who did not,do not or will not believe in him or those who believe that he was killed.It simply appears to be saying that all of the POB will believe in him before Jesus dies.And as far as i see from your earlier posts, you too seem to have had the same understanding of the verse.


I disagree.  Let's look at some of the most well-known translations [my comments in bold]:

Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- [this says plainly that the people of the book must believe in Jesus, and if they don't, he will be a witness against them]

Shabbir Ahmed: Everyone among the People of the Book must believe before dying, in the truth just stated. Jesus will be a witness against them on the Day of Resurrection (that he was neither crucified nor raised to the heavens. God is not confined to the Heavens). [Same idea as Yusuf Ali]

Asad: Yet there is not one of the followers of earlier revelation who does not, at the moment of his death, grasp the truth about Jesus; and on the Day of Resurrection he [himself] shall bear witness to the truth against them. [In his commentary, Asad says the following: "Lit., 'who does not believe in him before his death'. According to this verse, all believing Jews and Christians realize at the moment of their death that Jesus was truly a prophet of God - having been neither an impostor nor "the son of God" (Zamakhshari)."  So, according to Asad, the verse is saying that the unbelievers among the people of the book realize too late the truth about Jesus, and hence, he will be a witness against them.  The idea is the same as in Yusuf Ali and Ahmed, although the wording is different.]

Hilali-Khan: And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them. [Again, the same idea...namely that the people of the book must believe and if they don't, Jesus will testify against them].

Some of the translations do go along the same path as Pickthall and Shakir, but even then, they contradict Khalifa.  So, the fact still remains that Khalifa's translation has no support, and your argument was that Khalifa's translation was more accurate, was it not?

Well if Jesus returns,then the majority of POB should be able to believe that he wasnt killed right??Isnt that one of the major purposes of his return????And the translations say that everyone of them will believe in him.So then y would he be a witness against them on the day of Judgement???


They may or they may not.  How should I know?  It certainly would make sense that they would believe in him, and hence that explains why Pickthall, Shakir and others say that all of them will believe in him and he will be a witness against what they used to believe.  Regardless, this only disproves Khalifa even more, as all of the translations, despite the differences in the wording, agree on one thing: that the verse is speaking of the future, not the past.       

The word in question is derived from Wafaat meaning death.You say that it also means sleep but does that apply to the situation and context of the verse???.Absolutely not!Unless ofcourse Jesus was in bed and GOD put him to sleep and raised him to himself when the Jews were coming to get him.Jesus was on the cross to be crucified and killed but before the Jews could do that GOD terminated his life and raised his soul to him. Therefore logically the word Mutawafeeka has to be " putting to death" or terminate life.


You are only speculating here.  How do you know that God was speaking to Jesus while he was on the cross?  The verse does not say that!  For all we know, this is referring to before he was even arrested!  God could have told Jesus of His plans days before his arrest.

If soul is taken away from a person, it is nothing but death.  The problem arises with regards to  this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of "wafat" as death.  Irony is that  all scholars  who translated the Holy Quran do agree "wafat" means death.   Each and every scholar translated the word "wafat" as  death in at least 20 different instances in their translations.  However,  in this particular verse, they interpreted the meaning as ‘take away' and insinuate physical ascension.
 

By all means, show any examples.  In light of the other verses about Jesus, which say that he did not die, that he will be a witness etc., it does not make sense to say that he died in this verse.  Therefore, the only other possibility is that his soul was taken while he was in a state of slumber, and therefore, he is not dead.

Here are some of the verses in the Holy Quran where Allah used the word "wafat".  The verses are 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:15, 4:97, 6:61, 7:37, 7:126, 8:50, 10:46, 10:104, 12:101, 13:40, 16:28, 16:32, 16:70, 39:42, 40:67, 40:77, 47:27 etc.  In  each of the instances, all these scholars translated the word "wafat" as death, or a word very close to death but none of them used a word to mean take away in alive condition.


You forgot 6:60, which refutes your argument:

وَهُوَ ٱلَّذِى يَتَوَفَّىٰكُم بِٱلَّيْلِ وَيَعْلَمُ مَا جَرَحْتُم بِٱلنَّهَارِ ثُمَّ يَبْعَثُكُمْ فِيهِ لِيُقْضَىٰٓ أَجَلٌۭ مُّسَمًّۭى ۖ ثُمَّ إِلَيْهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ

"It is He who doth take your souls by night, and hath knowledge of all that ye have done by day: by day doth He raise you up again; that a term appointed be fulfilled; In the end unto Him will be your return; then will He show you the truth of all that ye did."

Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 

Before I close, I notice that you have not responded to some of the other points I raised, especially regarding the difference between a prophet and a messenger.  What is your response to those points? 


Edited by islamispeace - 20 April 2010 at 3:49pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2010 at 11:42am
Just because a translation is considered reputable does not mean it is 100& error-proof.  Having said that, I still think that Pickthall's translation is much more reputable and reliable than Khalifa's.  I believe that Khalifa's translation is simply inferior to the many others and that has been proven in this discussion.  When dealing with verses like 4:159, looking at other translations can help us come to a consensus, and keeping the topic of the discussion at heart, we see that the consensus is that it is not in the past tense, which is what you claimed.
 
You claimed that majority of the translators have interpreted it in one way but as far as i see there is clearly a difference in understanding  of this  verse amoung the  majority of scholars.Some translated it as "will believe and some as "must believe".I dont see how these interpretations become one way??!You called all of them reputed first(I cant still understand on what basis) and then u said some are unclear and ambiguous and now you are saying that they are not 100 percent perfect.Do us a favour and compare the translations of the so called reputed translators first and then tell us which one is the correct one.
 
 
Yusuf Ali: And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;- [this says plainly that the people of the book must believe in Jesus, and if they don't, he will be a witness against them]
 
 
The actual Arabic text  doesnt say anything like " and if they dont believe".You are adding words to the verse  and trying to make sense to the translation.The fact remains that the translations done by the majority makes absolutely no sense.In the first part of their translation of the verse, they put "must believe" or"will believe or whatever,which does not at all make any sense since the second part of the verse simply says "he will be a witness against them".If Jesus returns ,i dont see a reason y the POB shouldnt believe in him.Or are u saying that some amoung the POB will not believe in him????!!Does verse say that???!It is  therefore very clear and anyone with minimum inteligence will understand that the second part will only make perfect sense leaving no confusion, if the first part of the verse was translated as  something like"Everyone amoung the POB was to believe in him.

 It certainly would make sense that they would believe in him, and hence that explains why Pickthall, Shakir and others say that all of them will believe in him and he will be a witness against what they used to believe. 
 
All of them will believe???Well God didnt say that so i wonder where u got that idea from.In the below verse 3:55 GOD clearly says that he will exalt those who follow or believe him above those who disbelieve TILL the day of judgement and that their dispute regarding Jesus's death will remain till the Day of Judgement.If all of the POB believed then there shouldnt be a reason for dispute and no reason for GOD to judge them regarding their dispute on the day of Judgement.This is another clear indication that Jesus will not return before the day of Judgement coz if he did and showed himself alive,there is no reason for disbelieving nor reason for dispute!! its as simple as that!And anyone who is denying this Quranic truth is only doing so becoz of ignorance and EGO,nothing else!! 
 
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55)
  

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.

"And he be a witness against them for what they used to believe"???!!!The verse says nothing like that.Again you are  adding words to the verse and trying to make a new story, so that it matches the hearsays that u uphold besides the Quran.What a shame!!
 
You are only speculating here.  How do you know that God was speaking to Jesus while he was on the cross?  The verse does not say that!  For all we know, this is referring to before he was even arrested!  God could have told Jesus of His plans days before his arrest
 
Well otherwise it simply wouldnt make anysense.If so,please explain why would GOD suddenly raise a messenger of GOD up to him if he wasnt in any dangerous situation??Why would GOD terminate a messenger's mission just like that?? Why would GOD raise him up and rid him off the disbelievers for no good reason??.The disbelievers were there all the time when Jesus was preaching GOD's message.So why all of a sudden GOD chose to raise him and rid him off the disbelievers if nothing serious happened to him????Jesus was clearly in danger and thats y God chose to raise him up and rid him off the aggressing disbelievers.And the verse is certainly not in future tense so clearly GOD was not talking days before the incident.Therefore, It takes only common sense to understand that GOD was speaking to Jesus when he was either arrested or put on cross to be crucified by the disbelievers.
 
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ. (55)
 
 
Again i dont see any other reason other than ignorance and EGO for anyone to deny the fact that "Mutawafeeka" in this particular context means putting to death.And i perfectly understand y you see RK's translation inferior to others coz  his translation is not based on some hearsays written down by someone centuries back ,years after the Prophet's death, many of which you guys dont even still know if is "authentic or unauthentic". 
 

 

 
 
 
 


Edited by haris30432 - 22 April 2010 at 7:22am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 21 April 2010 at 11:53am
Do you think that it should be translated as "It is He who terminates your life by night...by day He raises you up again"?  That would make no sense.  Therefore, it is clear that the word can mean both death and sleep. 
When and where  did i say that the word does not mean sleep at all??My claim was that the correct meaning of the word can only be understood when the context of the verse is taken into consideration.In this particular verse since the words "night,"day" "raise" etc are present  it is very clear that GOD is talking about sleep.
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2010 at 7:34am
This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.
 

[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*

The verse is not directed to Jesus(since he was not KILLED) alone but to all the righteous people,any one who lost their life in the cause of GOD or as i understand anyone who died while striving in the cause of GOD.I was only using this verse to show that this may be the reason y GOD did not specifically say that "JESUS IS DEAD".!!


Edited by haris30432 - 22 April 2010 at 11:33pm
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2010 at 7:45am
Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers".
 
Oh come on !this is like saying that Moses couldnt have performed the miracle if he did not use the staff.And you know very well that the Bible code is nothing but a man made code so lets not get into that.The Mathematical code in the Quran has simple facts in them which do not even require any adding.subtracting or multiplication.I had presented the simple facts before in this forum you may look at them if u want.And like i said before,the hypocrites were eagerly propogating this miracle initially.They did not see anything wrong in the code when they witnessed it intially,but when their disbelief in the Quran was exposed,they started opposing it.This is nothing but EGO!!.
 

[98:4] In fact, those who received the scripture did not dispute until the proof was given to them.

 
 
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 22 April 2010 at 11:55pm
Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??
 
Just becoz there is no historical evidence does not mean that Muhammad (Pbuh) did not know what the Quranic Initials were or what the verses really meant.He may have and may not have.And it is GOD who teaches and  chooses what his messenger needs to know and what not.Muhammad (Pbuh) only spoke about things that was taught to him by GOD in the Quran.This code was definitely preserved for the scientifically advanced generation.And what about the BIG BANG theory??!.Many today say that GOD is talking about  it  in the Quran.Did Muhammad know anything about the BIG BANG THEORY??!The Quran as i understand is for all the generations to come and therefore many new information may be derived from the Quran.So that people believe and increase in faith at all times.
 

[10:101] Say, "Look at all the signs in the heavens and the earth." All the proofs and all the warnings can never help people who decided to disbelieve.

 
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:01am
Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Right.So??How does that prove that Tawrat only had laws in it and Zabur had only songs in it???You argument is very weak..There is no reference in the Quran which says Tawrat only contained Laws and nothing else.
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 23 April 2010 at 12:08am
That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?
 
Id like to make a correction here.The Quran only says that the signs have come, not fulfilled.All the details of the signs of the hour came to us when the Quran was revealed.
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