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Prophets - Jesus
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 April 2010 at 4:37pm
When did i say RK is my proof? Ive requested you to verify the arabic text and see for yourself which one is the correct translation.Im not here to prove that  RK is right or wrong.He may be wrong or may be right.I dont consider anyone infalliable.Im not here to defend any person either so lemme make that very clear to you.Plus Rk certainly isnt the topic of discussion here.And since your 1400 + years opinions and understandings are being questioned here it is you who shud be keen to prove  me wrong.The most important thing is ,which translation is right and which is wrong. And the best way to do is check the arabic text yourself and show me that it isnt in the past tense.Why dont you follow a simple commandment from GOD and just verify.


So why don't you verify it?  You are the one making the claim that it was in the past tense, not me!  So, go ahead and prove it yourself!  Why are you asking me to verify it? 

And don't tell me about what God says.  Follow your own advice and then lecture someone else.


And i never said that the other translators are totally ignorant of Arabic or dont know Arabic at all!You are simply exaggerating my friend.Since you wrote this in your previous post"In light of all these translations, along comes Mr. Khalifa and decides he knows better." i was only trying to point out that Rk was an Arabic speaking person and so may be ,just may be he knows better!!


You asked "how many of translators...are Arabic speakers".  I interpreted that as you saying that those translators don't know Arabic, which of course makes no sense.

Wrong!As u can clearly see in 3:55 God is the one who terminated his life in this world and raised his soul.What was left was a seemingly living body on the cross and it was this seemingly living body that the disbelievers were torturing and claimed they killed.There is no other explanation to it.Now check out the below verse for further clarification.Look what Jesus himself says.


I already provided a refutation of this claim.  The verse does not say that God terminated his life.  The word in question can have different meanings. Seemingly living body?  What does that mean? 

[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: 'You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my lifeفَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيۡتَنِى,You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.
 So again clearly Jesus did die in this world but wasnt killed as the disbelievers claimed.
 

The word in question is "tawaffa" which means to "take" and it can be in death or in sleep.[1]  It does not say that God "terminated his life". 


The Quran never says that he did not die.The Quran clearly says that GOD terminated his life.The Quran only says that he was not "KILLED"!I dont see any complication in that.
 

No, it doesn't!  Only you and a very small minority believe this.  If his life had been terminated, Surah 4:157-159 would have been the perfect place to say that, but it does not say that.  Verse 158 says it clearly: Allah took him to Himself.  Nothing is said about terminating his life. 

I have given you the arabic text to verify if the translation is accurate.Who cares whose translation it is??Is it a correct one??Isnt that what u should be focussing on???And i agree with u on Mutawafeeka.U are right that it is dervied from wafaat and considering the context of the verse it is definitely death and not sleep.God wouldnt put Jesus to sleep to rid him of the disbelievers...???Does that make any sense??So it is definitely termination of life what GOD means in the verse.
      

Why not?  Perhaps when Jesus fell asleep, God took him up and then his body or someone else was crucified.  Therefore, He rid him of the unbelievers.  What is so hard to comprehend here?


I really dont think that the verses or the context has anything to do with the Christians' claim of resurrection of Jesus.The verses and the context of the verses are clearly dealing with the Jews' claim of KILLING Jesus. The Christians as you urself said do believe in his death.Check out the following verses in the same Surah and tell me if the whole context of it has to do anything with the Christians ..the followers of christ.Who do u think GOD is addressing here in these verses??All of it ,till  verse159 deifinitely points out to the Jews and definitely not the followers of Christ.And also did u notice verse 160????.GOD particularly takes the name of the people of the scripture being addressed in this particular context.Do u think that is a coincidence??God has no coincidence.Subhanallah!
 

Why would God also not want the Christians to accept the truth, especially since at the time of the revelation of the Quran, the majority of his followers were not Jews, but gentile Christians.  The Christians also believe that the Jews killed Jesus.  That was the origin of Christian prejudice and hatred against Jews for centuries! 

Even if it is referring only to the Jews, it is not saying anything contrary to the standard Islamic theology, as you have failed to show that verse 159 was in the past tense.  So, all it would be saying is that the Jews must believe in him before his death, not that they were required to believe before his death.


I agree that its my own interpretation.This is becoz i do not see "some" or "all" in the arabic text of the verse.As far as i see it,the revelation of the final scripture of GOD is a major sign of the last hour.


That is true.  The Quran's revelation was a major sign of the last hour, but there are many more that have yet to be fulfilled.  If they had all been fulfilled, don't you think that the last hour would have come by now?

So if in the Quran GOD says the signs of the hour have already come,it should be the Quran and signs before it.The signs after the Quran's revelation are specifically mentioned in it as i pointed out in my earlier post.


He does not say that at all.  He says, according to most translations, that "tokens" or the "beginning" or "some" have already come.  How does that mean that "all" have come? 

I do not see Jesus's second coming as a sign in the Quran.The indications of that which were mentioned here in this forum are utterly false.The Quranic verses have been purposefully mistranslated and misinterpreted by some to suite their theory of Jesus's second coming.Now if u have a better understanding of the real meaning of this verse,please do share.


They have been mistranslated only by deceivers and liars who claim they are God's messengers.  Whether Qadianis or Submitters, they all mistranslate the Holy Quran for their own ends.

The advent of God's messenger of the covenant has been prophecised in the Quran.The Quran does not classify it as a sign of the hour by any means.So i disagree with your opinion .i wud like to leave at that so as to again stick to the original topic of discussion here.


Where has it been prophesied?  And if it was, why were people not expecting his arrival?  This is another false claim by heretics.  There is no mention of any future messengers to come after Muhammad in the Quran.  And if there was, those messengers would have brought new scripture, since Muhammad was a messenger and he brought scripture.  Jesus was a messenger and he brought scripture.  Moses was a messenger and he brought scripture.  But, the Quran itself says that it is the final scripture, so the idea of other messengers after Muhammad (pbuh) is ridiculous and blasphemous.

So as u can see in the above verse,concerning Jesus's death there was dispute,disagreement and doubt.That is why GOD specifically chose the issue of Jesus's death and the claim of killing him and cleared this major misconception through the Quran.


This is fine, but my question is regarding your initial assertion that God was explaining that the righteous don't actually die, but are living.  Why did God also not say something similar with regards to the other prophets and messengers who were slain by the unbelievers.

I would like clear Quranic verses as reference for the above understanding plz .I havent seen in the Quran that Prophets have only prophecies or prayers and Messengers have laws +prophecies +prayers.Also i would like to also see a verse in the Quran where it says Zabur(Psalms) did not have laws and were only prophecies or prayers.


Well, compare what the Quran says about the Torah and what it says about the Zabur.  "Tawrat" literally means "law", does it not?  What does "Zabur" mean?  Songs or "psalms", right?

Furthermore, I forgot to point this out in my last response.  The final proof that a messenger also received scripture is in the fact that Muhammad (pbuh) is called both nabi and rasul in the Quran...and he received scripture...the Quran!!!  
 

Yes,the discovery of the mathematical miracle in the Quran is the Proof of his messengership.The computer and the Quran was with a lot of  other people at that time and not just Dr Khalifa.Did any of those people find anything in the Quran???I dont think so.Plus i would also like to know if any messenger brought any miracle  with his OWN abilities???Take examples of Jesus,Moses etc.. did they do all those miracles with their own abilities???


Yeah, because most other people were more concerned with its message and not some "hidden code".  They would not waste time quibbling with such ideas. 

So, now you are comparing Khalifa to the great messengers of God???  AstagfirAllah.  And it was not his own abilities!!  He used a computer for God's sake!!  If he had done it without the use of computers, then you would have a point to make.  Finding a code using man-made technology is not a "miracle".  What nonsense you utter.  If that were the case, than the proponents of the Bible Code should also be regarded as "messengers". 


Many of those who are rejecting the miracle now were once those who were eagerly propogating the miracle around the world.Many magazines and books were circulated through out the muslim world calling it a great discovery.Mr.Ahmed Deedat himself propogated it and called Dr Khalifa a great servant of God. However,the purpose of the revelation of this miracle by GOD was not to bring fame to Dr Khalifa.The miracle has a greater purpose and the purposes are clearly stated in the Quran in Surah 74.If the below has nothing to do with the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran,one will have to answer how the number 19 or the angels in hell disturb the disbelievers,convince the Christians and Jews,strengthen the faith of the faithful,remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Jews and Christians,expose those who harbour doubts in their hearts etc.And what  and why are there Initials in the Quran??Why did God spell Mecca as Becca in the Quran???Dr Khalifa was blessed with many such secrets in the Quran.These informations were there in the Quran for over 1400 years.


No one is denying that there may be a mathematical anomaly in the scripture.  Maybe there is and maybe there isn't.  The question is how does it serve as proof of Khalifa's claims, which clearly contradict the Quran itself?  He claimed to be a messenger, and yet did not meet the conditions of a messenger and therefore exposed himself as a liar.  Discovering a code does nothing to remove the cloak of unbelief.

What does the number of angels in Hell have to do with a code?  If God says that there are 19 angels in Hell, why should that cause someone to go looking for a code?  Confused

Furthermore, by asking what these verses mean or what significance they have, you are implying that Muhammad (pbuh) had no idea what was meant, because there is no evidence that he understood these verses as referring to some "hidden code".  Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) asked what these verses meant??  If there had ever been a clue about a hidden code, people from the very beginning of Islam would have been looking for it.  They would have poured over the text like Newton did with the Bible, looking for codes when they should have been reading the scripture itself and learning from its wisdom.  Imagine Khalifa sitting in his office looking for codes...some messenger...     



Edited by islamispeace - 15 April 2010 at 4:51pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2010 at 5:40am
So why don't you verify it?  You are the one making the claim that it was in the past tense, not me!  So, go ahead and prove it yourself!  Why are you asking me to verify it? 
 
Ok ,i will give a simple method for anyone(Arab or Non Arab) to verify if the verse is in the past tense or not.I have verified it myself online using a Google translator.You may use any other tools u may like and im sure u will get the same result.So Select an Arabic to English translator and then put the arabic text(4:159) وَإِن مِّنۡ أَهۡلِ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهِۦ in it and u will see that the result  is
 
 
arabic to English translation
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It was the people of the Book but must believe in him


Edited by haris30432 - 16 April 2010 at 5:46am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2010 at 6:07am
As u see the verse is clearly in the past tense and not present or future tense.And in proper English  u know it means that the people of the book was to believe in him before his death.
 
Therefore i do not see any reason now for anyone to claim that Jesus is coming and to continue this discussion.
 
Peace!
 
 
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Quote seekshidayath Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2010 at 10:25am

Haris, i did not go thru the discussion, but can tell you that the ayah you are discussing above is in Imperfect tense. It is not past tense. Alhamdulillah, i know little arabic grammar. By the way the translations in english is also in present tense. I don't know whom you referred to.

" And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, --"

Word yu'minoona is in imperfect tense Its not in past tense





Edited by seekshidayath - 16 April 2010 at 10:26am
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 April 2010 at 2:42pm
Originally posted by haris30432

As u see the verse is clearly in the past tense and not present or future tense.And in proper English  u know it means that the people of the book was to believe in him before his death.
 
Therefore i do not see any reason now for anyone to claim that Jesus is coming and to continue this discussion.
 
Peace!


Well then, the conclusion here is don't rely on internet translators!  Why, you ask?  Here is why:

According to www.listenarabic.com, the translation of
وَاِنۡ مِّنۡ اَهۡلِ الۡكِتٰبِ اِلَّا لَيُؤۡمِنَنَّ بِهٖ قَبۡلَ مَوۡتِهٖ‌ۚ وَيَوۡمَ الۡقِيٰمَةِ يَكُوۡنُ عَلَيۡهِمۡ شَهِيۡدًا‌ۚ is "And from the people of the Book but must believe in him before his death and the Day will be a witness against them".  This contradicts your translator.  Therefore, I conclude that utilizing internet translator software will not help us with this issue.  The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 17 April 2010 at 3:24am
 
The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way

Right.Several translators seem to follow this understanding and their translations say something to the effect that "everyone from the People of the Book will (certainly) believe in him ...". However, why would Jesus be a "witness against them" when they believe in him? Should he not be a witness against those who do NOT believe in him?

 
Pickthall :There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
 
 
 
Peace!
 


Edited by haris30432 - 17 April 2010 at 3:30am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 April 2010 at 8:36pm
Originally posted by haris30432

 
The fact still remains that the vast majority of translators read the text one way and only RK read it another way

Right.Several translators seem to follow this understanding and their translations say something to the effect that "everyone from the People of the Book will (certainly) believe in him ...". However, why would Jesus be a "witness against them" when they believe in him? Should he not be a witness against those who do NOT believe in him?

 
Pickthall :There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them
Peace!


Yes, some translations are unclear or ambiguous.  What the ayat is actually saying is that Jesus will be a witness of what actually happened on the day of the crucifixion, and since the majority of the people of the book believe that he was killed, he shall be a witness against them. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 19 April 2010 at 11:12am

Yes, some translations are unclear or ambiguous. 

The translation that i put in my previous post is one of those whom u called a "reputed" translation.I wonder how it became unclear or ambigous all of a sudden.And as far as i see all of the "reputed" translators have translated the verse almost similarly.The verse as translated by the majority does not appear to be dealing with those who did not,do not or will not believe in him or those who believe that he was killed.It simply appears to be saying that all of the POB will believe in him before Jesus dies.And as far as i see from your earlier posts, you too seem to have had the same understanding of the verse.

What the ayat is actually saying is that Jesus will be a witness of what actually happened on the day of the crucifixion, and since the majority of the people of the book believe that he was killed, he shall be a witness against them.

Well if Jesus returns,then the majority of POB should be able to believe that he wasnt killed right??Isnt that one of the major purposes of his return????And the translations say that everyone of them will believe in him.So then y would he be a witness against them on the day of Judgement???

I already provided a refutation of this claim.  The verse does not say that God terminated his life.  The word in question can have different meanings.

The word in question is derived from Wafaat meaning death.You say that it also means sleep but does that apply to the situation and context of the verse???.Absolutely not!Unless ofcourse Jesus was in bed and GOD put him to sleep and raised him to himself when the Jews were coming to get him.Jesus was on the cross to be crucified and killed but before the Jews could do that GOD terminated his life and raised his soul to him. Therefore logically the word Mutawafeeka has to be " putting to death" or terminate life.

If soul is taken away from a person, it is nothing but death.  The problem arises with regards to  this verse, when Muslims refuse to interpret the meaning of "wafat" as death.  Irony is that  all scholars  who translated the Holy Quran do agree "wafat" means death.   Each and every scholar translated the word "wafat" as  death in at least 20 different instances in their translations.  However,  in this particular verse, they interpreted the meaning as ‘take away' and insinuate physical ascension.

The most correct meaning of the word "wafat"  is death.  Wherever in the Holy Quran the word "wafat" is used, all these translators derived the meaning as death, except in this verse 3:55, where  they don't see "wafat"  as death!!!!  What is the problem here? Why are they contradicting the meaning of 'wafat'? What stops them from translating the words of Allah in its true context?  They are seeing imaginary words only to support heresays they learned during their childhood. 

Here are some of the verses in the Holy Quran where Allah used the word "wafat".  The verses are 2:234, 2:240, 3:193, 4:15, 4:97, 6:61, 7:37, 7:126, 8:50, 10:46, 10:104, 12:101, 13:40, 16:28, 16:32, 16:70, 39:42, 40:67, 40:77, 47:27 etc.  In  each of the instances, all these scholars translated the word "wafat" as death, or a word very close to death but none of them used a word to mean take away in alive condition.

 

 

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