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Prophets - Jesus
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haris30432
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2010 at 12:28am
Peace,
 
Clearly, you are incorrect because every reputable translation contradicts RK's translation (which is what you are clearly using):
 
I knew you would come up with this answer and that is y i specifically asked you to verify the arabic text and understand the tense of the verse.I challenge you to prove that the verse isnt in the past tense.Just becoz the majority thinks something is right doesnt necessarily make it right,does it?Plus how many of the translators uve mentioned are arabic speakers??Not many if any im sure.FYI ,RK was an Egyptian with Arabic as his mother toungue.
 
You refuse to verify the verse.May be following the majority and the so called scholars is how you determine what is right and wrong in religion.Well its your choice .No compulsion from my side.
 
 
That is because most translations say that "some" of the signs have already come, not all of them.  If all the signs have already come, don't you think that the last hour would have come already?  What would be the point of all the signs when, 1,500 years later, the hour still hasn't come yet?

Look it up again and u will see MOST translations does not say"some" in them.Well it doesnt matter what most translations say coz it can be wrong.So if u look at the arabic text,there is no arabic word with the meaning "some" in the verse.If there is please lemme know.The verse simply says that the signs of the hour have come which means all signs of the hour till the Quran's revelation(which itself is a sign) have already come.Now what are the signs after the Quran's revelation??This has been specifically mentioned in the Quran and they are the "smoke prophecy" and the appearance of GOG and MAGOG.These are the ONLY remaining signs.I fail to understand y GOD chose not to specifically mention Jesus's second coming and leave it for the so called scholars to figure out. 

Below r the translation comparisons.

Yusuf Ali Do they then only wait for the Hour,- that it should come on them of a sudden? But already have come some tokens thereof, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their admonition?
Pickthal Await they aught save the Hour, that it should come upon them unawares? And the beginnings thereof have already come. But how, when it hath come upon them, can they take their warning?
Arberry Are they looking for aught but the Hour, that it shall come upon them suddenly? Already its tokens have come; so, when it has come to them, how shall they have their Reminder?
Shakir Do they then wait for aught but the hour that it should come to them all of a sudden? Now indeed the tokens of it have (already) come, but how shall they have their reminder when it comes on them?
Sarwar Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to suddenly approach them? Its signs have already appeared. How will they then come to their senses when the Hour itself will approach them?.
Khalifa Are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? All the signs thereof have already come. Once the Hour comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?
Hilali/Khan Do they then await (anything) other than the Hour, that it should come upon them suddenly? But some of its portents (indications and signs) have already come, and when it (actually) is on them, how can they benefit then by their reminder?
H/K/Saheeh Then do they await except that the Hour should come upon them unexpectedly? But already there have come [some of] its indications. Then what good to them, when it has come, will be their remembrance?
Malik Are they waiting for the Hour of Doom to overtake them all of a sudden? Do they not know that its signs have already come and when it will actually overtake them, what chance will they have to benefit by this admonition?[18]
QXP Are they, then, waiting for the Hour that may come upon them suddenly? And the signs of confrontation have already appeared. And when it comes to them, how shall their understanding (of the Truth) will help them?
Maulana Ali Wait they for aught but the Hour that it should come upon them of a sudden? Now tokens thereof have already come. But how will they have their reminder, when it comes on them?
Free Minds So are they waiting until the Hour comes to them suddenly? For its conditions have already been met. But once it comes to them, how will they benefit from their message?
Qaribullah Are they looking except for the Hour to overtake them suddenly? Its signs have come. But how will they be reminded when it has come to them?

JM Rodwell For what do the infidels wait, but that the Hour come suddenly on them? Already are its signs come, and when it hath come on them indeed, how can they be warned then?

Asad Are, then, they [whose hearts are sealed] waiting for the Last Hour - [waiting] that it come upon them of a sudden? But it has already been foretold! [Lit., "its indications have already come": a reference to the many Quranic predictions of its inevitability, as well as to the evidence, accessible to every unprejudiced mind, of the temporal finality of all creation.] And what will their remembrance [of their past sins] avail them, once it has come upon them? [I.e., "of what benefit will be to them, when the Last Hour comes, their dawning awareness of having sinned, and their belated repentance?"]
 
 
 
  


Edited by haris30432 - 12 April 2010 at 10:33pm
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2010 at 1:51am
This is nothing more than a revisionist interpretation.  It has been the overwhelming majority opinion in the 1400+ years of Islamic history that Jesus did not die.  There would have been no reason for God to say that Jesus did not die but it was made to appear to them, but that he really did die but is not really dead because "the righteous do not die".  One can see the nonsense in such reasoning. 

As far is this world is concerned,Jesus is dead and gone.Do u agree or disagree with that???Look carefully and u will see that in verse 4:157,the claim made by the Jews was that they" KILLED HIM" and not merely that he is DEAD. GOD is only refuting their claim of killing him and not his death in the verse.So now can u show me a verse where GOD says Jesus never died?
 
For certain, they never killed him.*
 
Jesus did die and that is why God says in the following verses that the Jews were required to believe in him before his death
 
"to believe in him before his death."
 
 
God terminates Jesus's life
Look at the below verse and see for yourself  what GOD says.It is very clear that GOD terminated jesus's life and THEN raised him.So your claim that Jesus did not die is nothing but a big lie.Notice the word used in the verse its "Mutawafeek(terminating life)" derived from the word "Mauth(death)" and the word "Raafee'uka" derived from the word "Rafa'a(Lift or Raise)".
 
إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.
 
The term "people of the book" was used only when referring to both Christians and Jews and you know it.  It would again not make sense for God to use the title "people of the book" to refer to just the Jews when throughout the Quran God referred to them as the "Children of Israel". 
 
Well there is something called context right??You can clearly see that the context here is the crucification ,the claim of killing Jesus etc in verse [4:157).Who do u think did all that??Ofcourse the Jews and not the followers of Christ.Now just a verse after, that is 4:159 God says that the  people of the book were required to believe in him.So who do u think that is refering to??
 
 

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Who do you think is the people of the book in the above verses?The Jews or the Christians?? OR BOTH AS U CLAIM???
 
So why didnt GOD say in the Quran that Jesus DIED??The below verse answers the question.[2:154] Do not say of those who are killed in the cause of GOD, "They are dead." They are alive at their Lord, but you do not perceive.*  [3:169] Do not think that those who are killed in the cause of GOD are dead; they are alive at their Lord, enjoying His provisions.
 
The Quran also refers to the previous prophets who were killed:
 
Sorry I dont think i understood you clearly here Confused.When did i say Prophets and messengers were not killed??I was only saying that God doesnt mention them as "dead"in the Quran.
 
 


Edited by haris30432 - 12 April 2010 at 11:04pm
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 12 April 2010 at 4:54am
This is another one of Khalifa's own made-up ideas.  It is true that there is a distinction between a prophet and a messenger, but what is clear is that every messenger was also a prophet (while every prophet was not necessarily a messenger).  Take the examples of Hud, Salih and Shuaib.  All three are mentioned as making prophecies (so they were nabis) but also were referred to as "rasuls" (messengers).  Therefore, by claiming that he was a messenger, you are also claiming that he was a prophet, and a prophet make prophecies. 
 
 
well lets look at the Quranic definitions of a Prophet and messenger.
 
In 3:81 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.

"God took a covenant from the PROPHETS, saying, "I will give you the SCRIPTURE AND WISDOM. Afterwards, a MESSENGER will come to CONFIRM all existing scriptures.  You shall believe in him and support him." He said, "Do you agree with this, and pledge to fulfill this covenant?" They said, "We agree." He said, "You have thus borne witness, and I bear witness along with you." 3:81

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi." It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159).
 

The Quranic definition of Prophet, and how all the prophets were given Scripture to deliver, is also confirmed in the following verse:

"The people used to be one community when God sent THE PROPHETS as bearers of good news, as well as warners. HE SENT DOWN WITH THEM THE SCRIPTURE, bearing the truth, to judge among the people in their disputes" 2:213

Those who are not sufficiently familiar with the Quran tend to think that Aaron was a "Nabi" as stated in 19:53, who did not receive a scripture. This claim can only be made by those who do not believe the Quran, since God ascertains in 2:213 that all the prophets were sent with the Scripture.  Moreover, the Quran clearly states that the Torah was given specifically  "to both Moses and Aaron" (21:48, 37:117).

In other terms ALL THE PROPHETS are MESSENGERS, but NOT ALL the MESSENGERS are PROPHETS.
 

Whenever God mentions prophethood in the Quran, He mentions scripture and sometimes wisdom.  The association of prophethood and scripture cannot be missed except by those blocked by God from seeing the truth.  The following are some examples:

Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn." 3:79

"Those were the ones to whom we have given the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood. If these people disbelieve, we will substitute others in their place, and the new people will not be disbelievers." 6:89

"We granted him Isaac and Jacob, we assigned to his descendants prophethood and the scriptures, we endowed him with his due recompense in this life, and in the Hereafter he will surely be with the righteous."  29:27

"We have given the Children of Israel the scripture, wisdom, and prophethood, and provided them with good provisions; we bestowed upon them more blessings than any other people."  45:16

"We sent Noah and Abraham, and we granted their descendants prophethood and the scripture.  Some of them were guided, while many were wicked."  57:26

Perhaps one of the strongest indications in the Quran that the words prophet and messenger do not have the same meaning, is found in the following verse:

"We did not send before you any MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise."  22:52

If the words prophet and messenger had the same meaning God would not be saying "MESSENGER NOR A PROPHET" ...... would He ?  Had the two words had exactly the same meaning , then mentioning one of them would have been sufficient.

The Quran is clear that EVERY PROPHET (NABI) IS A MESSENGER (RASOUL) BUT NOT EVERY MESSENGER IS A PROPHET.


Edited by haris30432 - 13 April 2010 at 2:22am
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 13 April 2010 at 4:33pm
I knew you would come up with this answer and that is y i specifically asked you to verify the arabic text and understand the tense of the verse.I challenge you to prove that the verse isnt in the past tense.Just becoz the majority thinks something is right doesnt necessarily make it right,does it?Plus how many of the translators uve mentioned are arabic speakers??Not many if any im sure.FYI ,RK was an Egyptian with Arabic as his mother toungue.


Well, wait a minute.  If the majority of translators have translated it as not being in the past tense, and you claim that it is citing only RK as your proof, then the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.  Your other question makes no sense.  If these translators did not know Arabic, how would they have translated the Quran and why would they even try? 

You refuse to verify the verse.May be following the majority and the so called scholars is how you determine what is right and wrong in religion.Well its your choice .No compulsion from my side.


It is not up to you to determine who is a scholar and who is not.  I have pointed out that your claim is not supported by the scholars.  Your only support is a false messenger who provided no evidence that he was sent by God and contradicts everything that the Quran and Sunnah have laid down.

Look it up again and u will see MOST translations does not say"some" in them.Well it doesnt matter what most translations say coz it can be wrong.So if u look at the arabic text,there is no arabic word with the meaning "some" in the verse.If there is please lemme know.The verse simply says that the signs of the hour have come which means all signs of the hour till the Quran's revelation(which itself is a sign) have already come.Now what are the signs after the Quran's revelation??This has been specifically mentioned in the Quran and they are the "smoke prophecy" and the appearance of GOG and MAGOG.These are the ONLY remaining signs.I fail to understand y GOD chose not to specifically mention Jesus's second coming and leave it for the so called scholars to figure out.


Of those translations, only Khalifa says that "all" of them have come.  The others only say something along the line of "the tokens or signs have come", but there is no indication whether all of them have come.  Think about it.  Wouldn't Khalifa's coming be a major sign as well, if he was a messenger of God?  And yet, he claims that all of the signs were already shown.  You are also interjecting your own interpretations by saying that it is referring to all the signs up to the Quran's revelation.  But it does not say that does it?  So then, what are you basing that on?


As far is this world is concerned,Jesus is dead and gone.Do u agree or disagree with that???Look carefully and u will see that in verse 4:157,the claim made by the Jews was that they" KILLED HIM" and not merely that he is DEAD. GOD is only refuting their claim of killing him and not his death in the verse.So now can u show me a verse where GOD says Jesus never died?
    

What do I care about what the rest of the world (the unbelievers) thinks?  Is that your best argument? 

If Jesus did indeed die, then he was killed by the Jews and Romans.  End of story.  It does not make any sense for the Quran to complicate the issue by saying that he did not die but it was made to appear that way but he did actually die.  You are going in circles here.

If the Jews did not kill him, how did he die?  Of a heart attack? 


Look at the below verse and see for yourself  what GOD says.It is very clear that GOD terminated jesus's life and THEN raised him.So your claim that Jesus did not die is nothing but a big lie.Notice the word used in the verse its "Mutawafeek(terminating life)" derived from the word "Mauth(death)" and the word "Raafee'uka" derived from the word "Rafa'a(Lift or Raise)".
 
إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ
[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O Jesus, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.


Again with Khalifa's translation.  This is called circular reasoning:  to prove what Khalifa said was true, you quote Khalifa's own translation.  You provide no evidence that "mutawafeeka" means to terminate life.  Mutawafeeka is not derived from "maut" but from "wafaat", which can mean both death or sleep.[1]      

Well there is something called context right??You can clearly see that the context here is the crucification ,the claim of killing Jesus etc in verse [4:157).Who do u think did all that??Ofcourse the Jews and not the followers of Christ.Now just a verse after, that is 4:159 God says that the  people of the book were required to believe in him.So who do u think that is refering to??

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.

Who do you think is the people of the book in the above verses?The Jews or the Christians?? OR BOTH AS U CLAIM???
        

True, I stand corrected.  However, as you were talking about context, Jesus' followers (Christians) are also included in 4:159.  To not include them along with the Jews would not make sense.  The Christians believe that he was killed and then resurrected from the dead.  Would they also not need to believe that this was not the case and that Jesus was raised to God?  Of course they do.  Therefore, in this case, "people of the book" refers to both Jews and Christians. 

Sorry I dont think i understood you clearly here Confused.When did i say Prophets and messengers were not killed??I was only saying that God doesnt mention them as "dead"in the Quran.


But the question was why did not God also make a distinction with them, as he did with Jesus?  Why not also say that those slain prophets were also "alive"?  Why not make a similar claim with regards to them as with Jesus? 

In 3:81 God described exactly the function of the Prophet (Nabi) and the function of the Messenger (Rasoul). Both definitions come in the middle of a very important verse that is dealing with the Messenger of the Covenant. For the sincere believer both definitions are clear and well described by the Teacher of the Quran, the Most Gracious.
 

How does this change anything that I said?  You still have not disproven that every messenger (rasul) is also a prophet (nabi).   

Verse 3:81, among many other verses, provides the definitions of "Nabi" (Prophet) and "Rasoul" (Messenger). Thus, "Nabi" is a messenger of God who delivers a new scripture, while "Rasoul" is a messenger commissioned by God to confirm existing scripture; he does not bring a new scripture. According to the Quran, every "Nabi" is a "Rasoul," but not every "Rasoul" is a "Nabi." It is not logical that God will give a scripture to a prophet, then ask him to keep it exclusively for himself, as stated by some Muslim "scholars" (2:42, 146, 159).
 

Not at all.  First of all, the verse refers to "a messenger", meaning a specific messenger (in this case, Muhammad (pbuh)).  And we know this from 3:84, which mentions some of the messengers before Muhammad, but does not mention him.  Moreover, Muhammad (pbuh) did receive a book, so your claim that a messenger only confirms the scripture is clearly false.  While the prophets also got books, they were distinct from the books given to messengers, in that the books of the prophets were just that: prophecies.  3:81 says this clearly ("confirming what is with you").  The books of the messengers have more than just prophecies.  They also have laws, as in the case of Torah, the Injil and the Quran.  The Zabur did not have laws, but were only prophecies or prayers.  Do you see the difference?

So therefore, Khalifa contradicts the Quran and purposely tries to alter the meaning to support his own claims.  

I also asked you what proof Khalifa provided that he was a messenger of God.  Discovering a mathematical code using man-made technology and not his own abilities would not serve as evidence.
  



Edited by islamispeace - 13 April 2010 at 6:06pm
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2010 at 2:26am
Peace,

Well, wait a minute.  If the majority of translators have translated it as not being in the past tense, and you claim that it is citing only RK as your proof, then the burden of proof is on you to prove your claim.  Your other question makes no sense.  If these translators did not know Arabic, how would they have translated the Quran and why would they even try? 

When did i say RK is my proof? Ive requested you to verify the arabic text and see for yourself which one is the correct translation.Im not here to prove that  RK is right or wrong.He may be wrong or may be right.I dont consider anyone infalliable.Im not here to defend any person either so lemme make that very clear to you.Plus Rk certainly isnt the topic of discussion here.And since your 1400 + years opinions and understandings are being questioned here it is you who shud be keen to prove  me wrong.The most important thing is ,which translation is right and which is wrong. And the best way to do is check the arabic text yourself and show me that it isnt in the past tense.Why dont you follow a simple commandment from GOD and just verify.

Crucial Advice

[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.

And i never said that the other translators are totally ignorant of Arabic or dont know Arabic at all!You are simply exaggerating my friend.Since you wrote this in your previous post"In light of all these translations, along comes Mr. Khalifa and decides he knows better." i was only trying to point out that Rk was an Arabic speaking person and so may be ,just may be he knows better!!

If Jesus did indeed die, then he was killed by the Jews and Romans.  End of story.

Wrong!As u can clearly see in 3:55 God is the one who terminated his life in this world and raised his soul.What was left was a seemingly living body on the cross and it was this seemingly living body that the disbelievers were torturing and claimed they killed.There is no other explanation to it.Now check out the below verse for further clarification.Look what Jesus himself says.
 
[5:117] "I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: 'You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.' I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You terminated my lifeفَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيۡتَنِى,You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.
 
So again clearly Jesus did die in this world but wasnt killed as the disbelievers claimed. 
 
It does not make any sense for the Quran to complicate the issue by saying that he did not die but it was made to appear that way but he did actually die.
 
The Quran never says that he did not die.The Quran clearly says that GOD terminated his life.The Quran only says that he was not "KILLED"!I dont see any complication in that.
 
 
Again with Khalifa's translation.  This is called circular reasoning:  to prove what Khalifa said was true, you quote Khalifa's own translation.  You provide no evidence that "mutawafeeka" means to terminate life.  Mutawafeeka is not derived from "maut" but from "wafaat", which can mean both death or sleep.
 
I have given you the arabic text to verify if the translation is accurate.Who cares whose translation it is??Is it a correct one??Isnt that what u should be focussing on???And i agree with u on Mutawafeeka.U are right that it is dervied from wafaat and considering the context of the verse it is definitely death and not sleep.God wouldnt put Jesus to sleep to rid him of the disbelievers...???Does that make any sense??So it is definitely termination of life what GOD means in the verse.
 
 
However, as you were talking about context, Jesus' followers (Christians) are also included in 4:159.  To not include them along with the Jews would not make sense.  The Christians believe that he was killed and then resurrected from the dead.  Would they also not need to believe that this was not the case and that Jesus was raised to God?
 
I really dont think that the verses or the context has anything to do with the Christians' claim of resurrection of Jesus.The verses and the context of the verses are clearly dealing with the Jews' claim of KILLING Jesus. The Christians as you urself said do believe in his death.Check out the following verses in the same Surah and tell me if the whole context of it has to do anything with the Christians ..the followers of christ.Who do u think GOD is addressing here in these verses??All of it ,till  verse159 deifinitely points out to the Jews and definitely not the followers of Christ.And also did u notice verse 160????.GOD particularly takes the name of the people of the scripture being addressed in this particular context.Do u think that is a coincidence??God has no coincidence.Subhanallah!

[4:153] The people of the scripture challenge you to bring down to them a book from the sky! They have asked Moses for more than that, saying, "Show us GOD, physically." Consequently, the lightning struck them, as a consequence of their audacity. Additionally, they worshiped the calf, after all the miracles they had seen. Yet, we pardoned all this. We supported Moses with profound miracles.

[4:154] And we raised Mount Sinai above them, as we took their covenant. And we said to them, "Enter the gate humbly." And we said to them, "Do not desecrate the Sabbath." Indeed, we took from them a solemn covenant.

4:155] (They incurred condemnation) for violating their covenant, rejecting GOD's revelations, killing the prophets unjustly, and for saying, "Our minds are made up!" In fact, GOD is the One who sealed their minds, due to their disbelief, and this is why they fail to believe, except rarely.

[4:156] (They are condemned) for disbelieving and uttering about Mary a gross lie.

4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified himthey were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

[4:158] Instead, GOD raised him to Him; GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

[4:159] Everyone among the people of the scripture was required to believe in him before his death. On the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.

[4:160] Due to their transgressions, we prohibited for the Jews good foods that used to be lawful for them; also for consistently repelling from the path of GOD.

 


Edited by haris30432 - 14 April 2010 at 10:50am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2010 at 4:45am

Of those translations, only Khalifa says that "all" of them have come.  The others only say something along the line of "the tokens or signs have come", but there is no indication whether all of them have come.  Think about it.  Wouldn't Khalifa's coming be a major sign as well, if he was a messenger of God?  And yet, he claims that all of the signs were already shown.  You are also interjecting your own interpretations by saying that it is referring to all the signs up to the Quran's revelation.  But it does not say that does it?  So then, what are you basing that on?

I agree that its my own interpretation.This is becoz i do not see "some" or "all" in the arabic text of the verse.As far as i see it,the revelation of the final scripture of GOD is a major sign of the last hour.So if in the Quran GOD says the signs of the hour have already come,it should be the Quran and signs before it.The signs after the Quran's revelation are specifically mentioned in it as i pointed out in my earlier post.I do not see Jesus's second coming as a sign in the Quran.The indications of that which were mentioned here in this forum are utterly false.The Quranic verses have been purposefully mistranslated and misinterpreted by some to suite their theory of Jesus's second coming.Now if u have a better understanding of the real meaning of this verse,please do share.

The advent of God's messenger of the covenant has been prophecised in the Quran.The Quran does not classify it as a sign of the hour by any means.So i disagree with your opinion .i wud like to leave at that so as to again stick to the original topic of discussion here.
 
But the question was why did not God also make a distinction with them, as he did with Jesus?  Why not also say that those slain prophets were also "alive"?  Why not make a similar claim with regards to them as with Jesus?
 
[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified himthey were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*
 
Another translation for your perusal.
 
 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
 
So as u can see in the above verse,concerning Jesus's death there was dispute,disagreement and doubt.That is why GOD specifically chose the issue of Jesus's death and the claim of killing him and cleared this major misconception through the Quran.


Edited by haris30432 - 14 April 2010 at 4:49am
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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2010 at 6:38am

.While the prophets also got books, they were distinct from the books given to messengers, in that the books of the prophets were just that: prophecies.  3:81 says this clearly ("confirming what is with you").  The books of the messengers have more than just prophecies.  They also have laws, as in the case of Torah, the Injil and the Quran.  The Zabur did not have laws, but were only prophecies or prayers.

I would like clear Quranic verses as reference for the above understanding plz .I havent seen in the Quran that Prophets have only prophecies or prayers and Messengers have laws +prophecies +prayers.Also i would like to also see a verse in the Quran where it says Zabur(Psalms) did not have laws and were only prophecies or prayers.


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Quote haris30432 Replybullet Posted: 14 April 2010 at 7:15am
I also asked you what proof Khalifa provided that he was a messenger of God.  Discovering a mathematical code using man-made technology and not his own abilities would not serve as evidence.
 
Yes,the discovery of the mathematical miracle in the Quran is the Proof of his messengership.The computer and the Quran was with a lot of  other people at that time and not just Dr Khalifa.Did any of those people find anything in the Quran???I dont think so.Plus i would also like to know if any messenger brought any miracle  with his OWN abilities???Take examples of Jesus,Moses etc.. did they do all those miracles with their own abilities???
 
Many of those who are rejecting the miracle now were once those who were eagerly propogating the miracle around the world.Many magazines and books were circulated through out the muslim world calling it a great discovery.Mr.Ahmed Deedat himself propogated it and called Dr Khalifa a great servant of God. However,the purpose of the revelation of this miracle by GOD was not to bring fame to Dr Khalifa.The miracle has a greater purpose and the purposes are clearly stated in the Quran in Surah 74.If the below has nothing to do with the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran,one will have to answer how the number 19 or the angels in hell disturb the disbelievers,convince the Christians and Jews,strengthen the faith of the faithful,remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Jews and Christians,expose those who harbour doubts in their hearts etc.And what  and why are there Initials in the Quran??Why did God spell Mecca as Becca in the Quran???Dr Khalifa was blessed with many such secrets in the Quran.These informations were there in the Quran for over 1400 years.
 

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.*

[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)

(1) to disturb the disbelievers,

(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),

(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,

(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and

(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

The hypocrisy ,idol worship and deception of many were exposed when  many truths from the discovery of this miracle  came out.This is why these disbelievers reject it.As mentioned in the Quran,Yes many were disturbed.Many who harboured doubts were then exposed.Many Christians and Jews have accepted and believed in the Quran and its miracle and  its still happening around the world.Many who had already believed in the Quran increased in faith after witnessing the miracle.This miracle is very profoud and is perpetual.The mathematical miracle of the Quran confirms the messengership of Dr Khalifa. 
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