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Family Matter
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Culture & Community : Family Matter
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fais
 
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Quote fais Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2010 at 8:07am
Hello
 
The discussion started with a woman who does not want to join her husband in saudi arabia to wife beating because  of just one fanatic christian who claims to be humanist.
 
I have been married to a saudi culture woman so i know what a beautifull life they live with all their rights protected by the goverment.people sitting on the other side of the world cannot comment on the freedom of woman in islamic coutries,Muslim women are much better than in west where the woman are asked to earn for their household and then left alone when they cross the age of 40.
 
This is ISLAM,we all muslim brother and sisters are trying in some way to convince this woman to not to take a divorce,on the opposite side  there is a so called humanist who boldly advises to leave the man and do not think of the children and the family and also that woman herself when she is no longer attaractive to get a new man in her life.
 
for the sake of the of few worldly fun he is advising her to destroy her family leave her children without father without thinking of her future.
 
WOW RON YOU ARE REALLY A HUMANIST!dont know in what sence
 
 
 
 
 
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 27 July 2010 at 4:21pm

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

I am still waiting for the response to the previous posts!

I answered what I thought deserved an answer.  Most of your posts are just ad hominems or neocolonial rants.

Originally posted by fais

I wanna understand one thing,the hadith about hitting with a miswak is good or bad according to you?

According to me, the hadith is neither good nor bad.  To be either, it would have to exist, and no one has given me any reason to suppose that it does. 

Originally posted by Chrysalis

Originally posted by Ron Webb


 But until someone does, I see no reason to believe that this apocryphal hadith actually exists.

As if you would actually believe it ?


Whether I believe it or not is unimportant.  What matters is whether Muslims ought to believe it, i.e. whether it is part of Islam or just something somebody made up.


No, not "and thus Muslims".  Most Muslims, like most Christians and most other faiths, manage to be good people despite their religions.  That was my point.

Well, when you talk about "Good & Bad people" and then talk about Islam,  you are bringing in Muslims. Islam is not a "person", If your point was that Muslims can be good people despite religion. . . then there was no need to bring in Islam at all. Unless you are equating Islam with its people.


No, you brought in Muslims. (Remember "and thus Muslims"?)  I brought in Islam because Saudi Arabia is a fundamentalist Islamic state.  Islam has everything to do with it.


If marie-london had chosen to accompany her husband to Saudi Arabia, wife-beating could very well have been an issue.

Really ? So if she had lived with him in her own country, wife-beating would not be possible ? Moving to Saudi Arabia automatically makes wife-beating a possibility ? Wife-Beating can take place anywhere, even in non-Muslim countries. And men get away with it . . . . moving to Saudia Arabia does not increase the chances of wife-beating. If he is a good man, he will remain so in Saudia Arabia as well. And if he is a bad man, he can very well beat up his wife in the UK or USA.


The difference is that in Saudi Arabia he knows he can probably get away with it.  She probably can't even leave the house without his permission; and when she does, a burka can hide any evidence.

Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2010 at 3:53am
Originally posted by fais

Hello
 
This is ISLAM,we all muslim brother and sisters are trying in some way to convince this woman to not to take a divorce,on the opposite side  there is a so called humanist who boldly advises to leave the man and do not think of the children and the family and also that woman herself when she is no longer attaractive to get a new man in her life.
 
for the sake of the of few worldly fun he is advising her to destroy her family leave her children without father without thinking of her future.
 


Salaam Bro Fais,

Just for the record - all of us muslim brothers and sisters are not trying to convince the lady to "not obtain a divorce". There is nothing wrong with obtaining a divorce when circumstances demand it.

The gentleman in this story, (Marie-London's husband) has not exactly been very trustworthy, and Marie didn't sign up for the circumstances she is in right now.

She understands her circumstances better, and nobody obtains a divorce for "worldly fun" especially when they have kids. Let this be her decision, we should not sway her on either side.


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2010 at 4:01am
Originally posted by Ron Webb


The difference is that in Saudi Arabia he knows he can probably get away with it.  She probably can't even leave the house without his permission; and when she does, a burka can hide any evidence.



There are laws in place that do deal with spousal abuse. There was the case of a Saudi presenter who was beaten up by her husband, she reported it, went public and the husband was arrested. I am not posting a link because Islamophobes are going to ignore the fact that the Govt took action, and are going to focus on the wife-beating aspect only.

Saudi Arabia is not an ideal society, and has its flaws. But people like you just take it to extremes. Like you said, good and bad people exist everywhere.


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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fais
 
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Quote fais Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2010 at 10:02am

Salam sister,

Yes i did not mean we are convincing her but in back of our mind we always hate divorce,so we will never make bold comments like just leave that man,

I remember sister hopes when i was going through the divorce,she wisely gave me good advises and never directly told me to give divorce to my wife,so this is a muslim  behaviour.
 
we dont know what she will face or what is her situation so we should always avoid advising for divorce to anyone,this is what i meant,but ron is immposssible
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2010 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by marie-london

i do believe that islam does not treat women fair, and a man in islam is taking another wife is only an excuse to have an affair or to take a mistress...
This kind of accusation indicated you don't have a mind of your own...To have an affair and mistress you don't need to have religion...In Islam there are strict rules about another wife...You are mixing apples with oranges!
Don't live by the rules there is no Islam. I don't think they will allow that legally in the UK or anywhere in the western country to have a second wife so why talk like that! Mistresses cost big money! Is your husband rich enough?
There is something called standards of making and raising kids!
He was not Brit, all that was there before you co produced with Muslim names unless you were too stoned!

in any religion and way in society it is still a man world, i too have read in quran that a man is allowed to beat his wife under some circustances but must be careful how he does it

Not so ... not some circumstances it has to be the prospects of adultery only! The UK has laws ! right?
Women get beat up in the US for that on daily basis so don't tell me that is Islamic only...The authorities won't prosecute unless victims press charges! The battered women houses are full all over the States
 .... it makes me sick, very rare in most soceities you dont find the women beating the husband,
Oh yes the women beat up their husband and boy friends too for the same reasons Google and see you find all kind of stats!
 http://www.menweb.org/battered/
i also agree with pati that western men are in for the long haul and because of choice you hope to find real love and muslim men its more of a status and obligation (correct me if i am wrong)
Wrong again there is no guarantees! What status are you talking about?
  http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_dira.htm

i think there is alot of truth in what you said about meeting me willing to party drink and sleep with me outside marriage should of indicated to be that he was not a good muslim man, (i was very naive at the time)
It doesn't matter now you have brought two new souls in this world, You can not just blame him only it takes two to tango cuz you didn't have religious upbringing...It was UK but he was Egyptian that was not hidden!
 and what you say about sticking to own culture because can read him better and know our culture there may be some substance in this coz i known him for 15 years and i am good judge of charater and what scares me so much about all this how i could of got it so wrong and how made me doubt my whole journey with him.
You know this is gibberish...If you are such judge of character then why ask other on this board? Your language skills, where are you from? Are you a local  yourself? I am wondering!
You need to assess this honestly...for next eight years till your boy is a man you are to get your act together otherwise there is better than even chance you will be adding two more delinquents into society!
You can not complain too much about your condition but learn to make the best of what you done for the kids! Learn the things you don't know!
Is your husband paying the child support?


Finally you both were running around as secular couple! If he was a practicing Muslims and you were a Catholic he couldn't demand a reversion from you but you had to be in a chaste condition and not going bar hopping! But the case law doesn't apply in your case now ... 

He made the reversion to faith call first so you don't get to say that you want to go back to your religion cuz that will be a reactionary move...You both lacked the religion but now for children sake there has to be a common theme for their sanity not necessarily you two but it will help you I can guarantee!

If you had become religious firsts I would say in that case he follows your lead but you didn't... We do not have his side so it is difficult to give an advice that will cover all bases! Both of you have long way go; learn things that are necessary to raise a responsible adults that you both were not!
Once the kids are adults and still you guys have problems to fully mature then go the separate ways by all means! First learn, practice and then decide, don't go on the hearsay!
 If they are raised as Muslims they know they can always get the other choices on the outside for comparison and they can make that call on their own dime!

It doesn't matter what happens but the children need their father...no matter what you think about now and what they are telling you! Let them become teenagers they will drive you up the wall and then you will regret!

 People with no children of their own shouldn't be on this thread IMO!
 I have seen the children of the divorced and the kind of talk back they give to their moms for a broken home! If you remarry there aren't too many men around who will replace the real one! But who knows if you want to take that route! No one is a seer around here!
Looking at your posts you need to also to go back to school and get some professional training that will help to raise your children!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 29 July 2010 at 2:29pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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marie-london
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Quote marie-london Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2010 at 3:31am
first of all how rude are you ..... i dont claim to be intellegent or knowledge of any religion and this is why i am on this forum to merely try and understand things a little more, i refer to alot of thing that i have been told about islam by my husband and i am trying to get advice on the things he tells me is a rule of his religion, and just because my children maybe left without a father does not means they will grow up to be delinquents, there are alot of good single mums out there (and considering my good muslim husband has only been in there lives for 21 weeks out of the last 18 months while is is busy on dating sites in saudi arabia looking for his good muslim wife (which his religion allows him) indicates i am looking after my children on my own, with very little financially support.  you also refer to me having to go back to school, just because maybe my writing is not correctly presented, does not stop me from knowing the main principal in life .... trust, honesty, love, guidance and a whole raft of other morals which has been my moral upbringing.
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Chrysalis
 
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Quote Chrysalis Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2010 at 4:55am
Originally posted by marie-london

first of all how rude are you ..... i dont claim to be intellegent or knowledge of any religion and this is why i am on this forum to merely try and understand things a little more, i refer to alot of thing that i have been told about islam by my husband and i am trying to get advice on the things he tells me is a rule of his religion,


Sister, its going to be hard - but - ignore the negativity. I for one think that it was wise of you to try and get validation for whatever your husband claims that Islam says. You cannot obviously take him for his word. He has not proven himself to be trustworthy. Trust is earned, its not a right to be given.


and just because my children maybe left without a father does not means they will grow up to be delinquents, there are alot of good single mums out there (and considering my good muslim husband has only been in there lives for 21 weeks out of the last 18 months while is is busy on dating sites in saudi arabia looking for his good muslim wife (which his religion allows him) indicates i am looking after my children on my own,


I agree with you Sister - being a single mom doesn't mean your children will grow up to be delinquents. The mere "formal" presence of a father does not ensure good kids. Besides, he will always remain their father whether or not you live together. If he is a good Muslim and a good father, he will make an effort to stay in the life of his children. That decision is not your sole responsibility. He needs to make that decision too.

Like they say, "it is better to lose a lover than to love a loser". You can decide better if your husband is a good influence on your family's life. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting Divorce - I just think its a decision ONLY YOU can make, since you have all the facts and the whole picture with you. We cannot advise you based on a few facts.

You mentioned that his religion allows him a second wife - well Sis, in case you were not aware, if he throws that excuse in your face - you have certain rights as well. Islamically it is his legal responsibility to provide you with the same things he provides his second wife. Provided you both remain married. If you get divorced, then you are only entitled to your marriage dowry i.e. Mahr. For e.g. if he buys her a house, he has to buy you a house. He is also financially responsible for the maintenance of his children. He is also bound to spend equal time with both the wives. If that means spending 6months in each country, so be it. Islam will fully protect your rights as the first wife.

Having said that - obviously there is no Shariah Law in the UK that can implement that. But if he actually did have a religious awakening - you should be able to settle these issues with him amicably. Tell him plain and simple that those are his legal responsibilities and not fulfilling them is a sin. He will be held accountable on the day of judgment.

I hear there are Shariah Courts in the UK ? If so, and if your husband doesn't co-operate, you could perhaps approach the Shariah Court to settle your disputes. They deal with issues of Divorce and Family etc. I don't know how "Islamic" they are, but its worth a try.

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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