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 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Politics : World Politics
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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 28 July 2005 at 4:21pm
Explain this rationale, if anything the war in Afghanistan was legitimate by all accounts. Firstly the ones who attacked the US on 9/11 were Al Q operatives, the US asked the Taliban regime to give them the OBL and the gang in return for not attacking Afghanistan, they refused and the war started


Suuure thats what its all about. you really come of as informed (by fox news)
http://www.google.dk/search?q=oil+pipeline+afghanistan&s ourceid=mozilla-search&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8& amp;oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US: official

Since when is it common practice to bomb a country to the pits, ensure thats it opium trade can be started again (After the taliban destroyed it) to catch one man, whom the taliban again and again claimed they didnt know where was. It was the western media who insisted that they knew it, and kept making storys. How do we know? we had people there through ISRA that is a humanitarian aid agency that i work with.

This man thanks the US for ensuring his business


http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Afghanistan/Afghanistan_CI A_Taliban.html


The U.S. war on Afghanistan is a brutal attack on a country that has already been almost destroyed by more than 20 years of foreign invasion and civil war.' The Soviet occupation, which lasted from 1979 to 1989, left more than a million people dead. Millions still live in refugee camps More than 500,000 orphans are disabled. Ten million land mines still litter the country, killing an average of 90 people per month. At 43 years, life expectancy in Afghanistan is on average 17 years lower than that for people in other developing countries. The countryside is devastated and is currently experiencing a severe drought, with 7.5 million people threatened with starvation. The death and destruction wrought by the U.S. bombing campaign-and the cut off of food aid deliveries it has caused-have already killed hundreds and produced thousands more refugees scrambling to escape into Pakistan.

But not only is Washington attacking one of the poorest countries in the world, past U.S. government actions are in no small part responsible for the current situation in Afghanistan. The Bush administration claims to be targeting Osama bin Laden, who it says masterminded the September 11 terror attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon (even though it has offered no concrete evidence to back up this accusation), and Afghanistan's Taliban government, which is sheltering him. But as the Economist magazine noted soon after September 11, " [U.S.] policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." An examination of this history will reveal the extent to which U.S. foreign policy is based on hypocrisy, realpolitik, and the short-term pursuit of narrow interests.

How is that "not better" then Iraq? Are you suggesting that the US now has no right to defend itself because you feel Muslims are going to be hurt?


Defend itself against what. weman and children?



Oh btw...what happened to bin laden. did the us get to "defend" itself. or did it get to build the pipeline it wanted to build all along. Why do you think the taliban WAS INVITED TO THE US? for a cuppa and a freindly conversation? ofcourse they refused, as it was to no benefit of them or their people.

Also considering that the Northern Alliance actually supported the war, and joined the US against the Taliban


so what youre saying is that you dont know youre arse from your elbow. The northern alliance are a gathering af war tribes. They where pissed of with the taleban because they had been fighting them, so they wouldnt raid the towns all the time. that conflict is what created the taliban to begin with.  But naturally the war tribes where the good guys becasue they helped the US. nevermind their own agenda, like reintroducing the opium trade like no tommorow.

so to suggest that the war in Afghanistan was a war against the Afghan people or Islam is idiotic,


you are right. Piracy is the right term for it. sorry

especially considering that no one outside Pakistan considered the Taliban as legitmate rulers of Afghanistan.


Do the US ask Denmark or norway for permission when they insert a new government? what kind of reasoning is that. With the exception of the northern alliance most afghans were happy about the taleban, because they provided something most of them hadnt had for more than 20 years. they provided security.
I do not agree with their treatment of weman, but i do know first hand what went on there. If you want to know more about ISRA see WWW.isra.co.uk or www.isra.dk

You have not shown us as such...I will be EAGERLY awaiting a response.


wich you have gotten, now lets not waste anymore of eachothers time.

Peace
Noah






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Jeremy
 
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Quote Jeremy Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 7:55am
Can we keep this post on topic, please?
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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 9:27am
Hello Jeremy

Sorry. i did not intend to hijack your thread. Did i understand the assignment correctly?

Peace
Noah
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nico
 
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Quote nico Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 9:49am

Suuure thats what its all about. you really come of as informed (by fox news)
I am well aware of the Unocal connection, with the Natural Gas pipeline leading to the Indian Market from the ample supplies in Turkestan. But that really doesn't explain anything, explain why would the US want to invade a country who prior to 9/11 was even supported with American aid? Why would they present any problems? Secondly the Taliban gave Afghanistan stability, exactly what the US would have wanted for the NG pipeline...so why would the US invade the country knowing it would lead to some form of anarchy to put the pipeline on hold for that much longer? Thirdly you forget that no matter what alterior motives there were, the US invaded Afghanistan only after they had given the regime a chance to save itself. So you are still lacking motive...

Since when is it common practice to bomb a country to the pits, ensure thats it opium trade can be started again (After the taliban destroyed it) to catch one man, whom the taliban again and again claimed they didnt know where was

Do you actually believe the Taliban? Whom here is the one with the complex? Surely it is not I. The Taliban destroyed the Opium crop yes, and it did so with US assistance even financial assistance, so again you are proving that the Taliban were more US allies then foes, so again why would the US want to get rid of them? I am not so naive to believe the US invaded Afghanistan based on "human rights", but I do believe that the US invadedTaliban Afghanistan because of the US perceived it as a threat to her national security, and that war was justified by all norms of war. You have yet to show me how someone of sound mind and body can even BEGIN to compare Afghanistan with Iraq.

It was the western media who insisted that they knew it, and kept making storys. How do we know?

Well lets see OBL had basses in Afghanistan, he was spotted in Afghanistan, he supported Mullah Omar as a "true leader" of Islam. Chances are MORE likely then not he was in Afghanistan and it is reported he was spotted in Tora Bora in 2002, which is located in Afghanistan. Tell me where he could have possibly been prior to 9.11 as no Islamic nation would be crazy enough to take him.

This man thanks the US for ensuring his business
Surely he may say thank you now, but the difference btwn the Taliban and the US is this. The Taliban destroyed the crop and offered no real alterantive form of income, thus famine and starvation were common or would have been. The US is trying to destroy the crop but is also trying to give these people some form of income to stop them from joining the insurgency, and to develop the economy. So your attempts are failing.

The U.S. war on Afghanistan is a brutal attack on a country that has already been almost destroyed by more than 20 years of foreign invasion and civil war.'

The US "brutally" attacked Afghanistan? Obviously they do not know what brutally means...if you want to see brutality look at teh Soviet invasion of the country where whole villages were destroyed for having suspected connections to the Mujahedin. War is innately horrid, but to say the US actions are brutal is a bit much, that isn't to say the US has been perfect but it is not by historical standards brutal. Do not think I am a pro-Bushie, I hate Bush, I hate Republicans/Conservatives. but I also hate people who manipulate words and facts to fit their own interpretation of the facts.

But not only is Washington attacking one of the poorest countries in the world,

Point is that Washington didn't attack the state of Afghanistan it attacked a rogue political force in the country...think about it.

But as the Economist magazine noted soon after September 11, " [U.S.] policies in Afghanistan a decade and more ago helped to create both Osama bin Laden and the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." An examination of this history will reveal the extent to which U.S. foreign policy is based on hypocrisy, realpolitik, and the short-term pursuit of narrow interests.

I agree with this assesment, yes the US created OBL, Al Qaeda,and fostered the growth of Extremist Islamist ideology in the 80's. But the US is now trying to destroy the monster it created...also why use the quote from the economist if it contradicts what you have been saying this whole time: "the fundamentalist Taliban regime that shelters him." ? Explain this lapse of jugdement.


Defend itself against what. weman and children?

Wemen...not sure what they are...but the US isn't attacking Afghani's are they? In WWII for instance the US bombed Nazi Germany it killed innocent people, but since they killed innocent people they weren't defending themselves? That's ur logic...so in order for a nation to defend itself it must not kill one innocent person? I don't know what you think war is...but it isn't pretty.

Oh btw...what happened to bin laden.

We don't know his fate, maybe he is dead. To me OBL is irrelevant now has his organization is much bigger then himself.

did the us get to "defend" itself. or did it get to build the pipeline it wanted to build all along.

Did it build the pipeline? Secondly did the US defend itself, in Afghanistan yes to an extent in Iraq she did the opposite.

so what youre saying is that you dont know youre arse from your elbow.

I know what I am talking about...I question if your sane.

The northern alliance are a gathering af war tribes. They where pissed of with the taleban because they had been fighting them, so they wouldnt raid the towns all the time. that conflict is what created the taliban to begin with. But naturally the war tribes where the good guys becasue they helped the US. nevermind their own agenda, like reintroducing the opium trade like no tommorow.

I never said the Northern Alliance was good did I? Secondly I am aware that most of the NA was Uzbek, Turkmen tribal members who lived in the Kush controlling 10% of the land. But they were the internationally recognized govt of Afghanistan and their wishes were recognized as the wishes of the people of Afghanistan, maybe it is YOU whom should learn not to underestimate others.

you are right. Piracy is the right term for it. sorry

Explain this one...considering the US isn't stealing anything in Afghanistan as there is nothing to steal.

Do the US ask Denmark or norway for permission when they insert a new government? what kind of reasoning is that.

Genius did the Taliban ask teh people of Afghanistan to be rulers of the state? No, so stop the hypocrisy.


wich you have gotten, now lets not waste anymore of eachothers time.

My firend your overt ignorance is shocking....sorry to say. Learn history then talk to me.


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Noah
 
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Quote Noah Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 9:58am
***deleted by Noah , off topic***


Edited by Noah
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Jeremy
 
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Quote Jeremy Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 10:32am
You're original post was fine, Noah.

It was just that I'm looking for individual positions, not debates between different posters, although I freely acknowledge that's anyone's right on a public board.

One of the problems with trying to find the rational middle-ground is that the persons involved in the debate are busy justifying their positions instead of trying to find out how wrong they might be.

The problem with that is that it's always easy to find something to support a preconception. Changing a preconception and admitting to oneself that you might be wrong about aspects of a debate because of the overwhelming bulk of evidence, as opposed to merely supportive evidence, is much harder because it means challenging ones own strongly held beliefs. But it is actually productive, and even exciting from the perspective of developing critical thinking.

The one observance I'll make about this chat site is that while it's obviously an important dialogue and far more reasoned than some I've seen, far too much of it seems aimed at proving one side wrong over the other, instead of looking for ways to work together and understand each other. And before anyone launches the obvious provocative flame, yes, media are as complicit or moreso in that as anyone.
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Quote Jeremy Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 10:33am
Or even "Your" original post. Some editor I am. Sheesh.
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Jeremy
 
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Quote Jeremy Replybullet Posted: 29 July 2005 at 1:27pm
Any more views on the original post?
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