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seekshidayath
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bullet Posted: 03 March 2010 at 2:28am

`Never would a human being whom GOD blessed with the scripture and prophethood say to the people, "Idolize me beside GOD." Instead, (he would say), "Devote yourselves absolutely to your Lord alone," according to the scripture you preach and the teachings you learn.(3:79) Well, there it says it all, don't you think? In fact, isn't that what christians do - celebrate the birth of Christ? I mean it does seem like muslims bring Muhammad to such level where he becomes... almost as God, I mean for God’s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)

 
Its not idolising at all. To celebrate birthday - is it idolising ? What if, christians celebrate b'day of christ ? How do you connect them and state celebratin the b'day of Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} is wrong ? When you wish my answers from Qur'an, i also expect you to  support your answer by Qur'an and sunnah . Also, why is it taking him as God when we just celebrate b'day ?
 
I mean for God’s sake you even put him in an every prayer!! (And as far as my understanding goes a prayer should be for a glorifying God, right?)
We offer out put him in every prayer {in your words}, as Allah stated us in Qur'an to send blessings over him, as Allah and angels also send him. Is it taking Prophet as God ?
 
Yeah, I wasn't a muslim for long, and yet even to me it seems like so much stuff is outdated.
 
So, its time to move your thread at non-muslims section. Now you don't even take Qur'an as word of God. When you have no answers you simply state its outdated. Whats the use of these discussions ?
 
Like this verse. Honestly, I have no answer to this question. I’ll research more on this one. Thanks.
 
By the way, it says "refer it to Allah and His Messenger", not to scholars or “learned persons", right?
 
I shall quote you the ayah, wherein its said that we can reach out those who possess more knowledge.. By the way, you atleast prove to me, as how shud one refer to messenger ? - I shall give you the answer - simply by following his sayings, which are preserved.
 
 Are trying to say that by communicating through scholar we somehow communicate with God and Messenger?
 
These kind of derivings come, when we try to understand by our own. So try to reach men of understanding, sincerly. Smile
 
Or by reading hadith you do? Do you tolerate all hadith or not? If yes, I can point you to hadith where women are compared to dogs or monkeys (Bukhari 8/102 and Hanbel 4/86)... Is that OK with you? Or you choose which ones to accept and which not to?
 
You just share that hadith here, not the number. By the way what is this hanbel ? I look into those sayings of Prophets which are authentic, i.e have right chain of narrators.

Bring up the verse please
 
  “So ask  of those who know the Scripture, if you know not” [al-Nahl 16:43].
 
 How can I trust a woman if... "Women are naturally, morally and religiously defective".(Bukhary
 
This is what happens when you don't study from those who possess more knowledge than yours.Hope atleast now you realise the need of studying from those who spent there lives in gaining knowledge sincerly. Shall share a link insha Allah.
 
Don't bring up new topics inless old ones are solved. Else we may get messed up
 
 


Edited by seekshidayath - 03 March 2010 at 2:29am
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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haris30432
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bullet Posted: 03 March 2010 at 5:25am
Peace,
 
Its true that i have a different understanding of Islam than many in this forum.However i do take offence in any form or level of mockery of GOD, the Quran and his messengers.There fore,dear brother, i would like to request you to double check some of your posts as it slightly has a tone of mockery.Plus if you do not consider yourself a muslim yet,i would request you to kindly be more respectful in ur questions.And even though i disagree with Seekshidayath on many issues,i agree with her opinion that this discussion may be better done in the non-muslims section.
 
Peace :)
ONE GOD ONE SOURCE OF LAW!
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calvindamenace
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bullet Posted: 03 March 2010 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by seekshadiyath


Originally posted by seekshidayath

Its not idolising at all. To celebrate birthday - is it idolising ? What if, christians celebrate b'day of christ ? How do you connect them and state celebratin the b'day of Prophet Muhammad {sallal lahu alayhi wasallam} is wrong ? When you wish my answers from Qur'an, i also expect you to support your answer by Qur'an and sunnah . Also, why is it taking him as God when we just celebrate b'day?

I found this link http://muttaqun.com/mawlid.html, you have to understand I wasn't muslim for long and I do not know quran well, and yet you want me to support it with verses from it. Well I can always copy and paste, so here it is:

"The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allâh, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. They say, "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers" - and they say, "We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your Forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)." 2:285,

"Say (O Muslims), "We believe in Allâh and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob), and to Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob), and that which has been given to Műsa (Moses) and 'Iesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islâm)." 2:136,

"And those who believe in Allâh and His Messengers and make no distinction between any of them (Messengers), We shall give them their rewards, and Allâh is Ever OftForgiving, Most Merciful".4:152,

"Say (O Muhammad ): "We believe in Allâh and in what has been sent down to us, and what was sent down to Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ'il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya'qűb (Jacob) and Al-Asbât [the twelve sons of Ya'qűb (Jacob)> and what was given to Műsa (Moses), 'Iesa (Jesus) and the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between one another among them and to Him (Allâh) we have submitted (in Islâm)."3:84

So, now then, we say to those who insist on celebrating the Prophet's birthday.... with clear proof not to distinguish between the Prophets... why don't you celebrate ALL the Prophet's birthday's? Like Jesus'? You can do it on Dec. 25th or pick another date if you want. Oh, I see, you know better than to celebrate Jesus' birthday?? Maybe the reasons you shouldn't be celebrating Jesus' birthday, are the same reasons not to celebrate Muhammad's birthday?" Nicely said.


We offer out put him in every prayer {in your words}, as Allah stated us in Qur'an to send blessings over him, as Allah and angels also send him. Is it taking Prophet as God?

As far as I know it was Muhammad who thought muslims how to pray, well do you say that's what he thought them to say? Or did he himself said this "I testify that there is no god but Allah and I testify that Mohammed (in his case it would be "I am your slave and messenger") is His slave and messenger. O Allah, bless Mohammed (in his case "bless me and my family") and his family as You blessed Ibrahim and his family. Yes, no? And how come we don’t include any other prophet in our prayers?

So, its time to move your thread at non-muslims section. Now you don't even take Qur'an as word of God. When you have no answers you simply state its outdated. Whats the use of these discussions?

Sure, you can move this thread anywhere you want, I don't really mind. As of outdated, it does seem like it, here's sample - verses of slavery, and as far as I know it's abolished in every western society (yeah, for some reason muslims try so hard to come to any cuffir european country from islamic countries where living should be super great since they enforce islamic law) unlike in some muslim societies, where it still flourishes. Here: "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"(33:50), is this Ok with you? I mean let's say that it's not outdated, that means that slavery is ok, right? In fact any muslim who takes this verse as it is could go and get a slave?

These kind of derivings come, when we try to understand by our own. So try to reach men of understanding, sincerly.

You still insist I need someone to tell me how I should understand a verse in Quran? Why is it stated then that "This (the Qur’an) is clear insight for humanity and guidance and mercy for people with certainty 45:20 or "And We have indeed made the Qur’an easy to understand and remember, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?54:17. Are you trying to say it's written in code and we need someone to decode it? Why would God do that if He wants to guide us?

You just share that hadith here, not the number. By the way what is this hanbel? I look into those sayings of Prophets which are authentic, i.e have right chain of narrators.

Sure. Enen some extra ones. Here you go:
"If a monkey, a black dog or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified." (Bukhary 8/102; Hanbel 4/86). Note, if a pig passes - it's ok
"Bad luck is in the woman, the horse, and the home" (Bukhary 76/53).
"The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war" (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu Davud 113).
"Woman was created from rib so she will always remain crooked. Leave her crooked as she is." (Beginning of creation, Bukhari, vol.2, p.251).
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "Isn't the witness of a women equal to half that of a man?" The women said "yes". He said "This is because of the deficiency of the women's mind." Sahih Bukhari 3:48:826



“So ask of those who know the Scripture, if you know not”

Verse 2:2
Yusuf Ali:     This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear God
Zohurul Hoque:     This Scripture, no doubt in it, is a Guidance for the reverent:
T. J. Irving:     This is the Book which contains no doubt; it means guidance for those who do their duty
T.U. Hilali-M. Khan:     This is the Book (the Qur'ân), whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who are Al-Muttaqűn [the pious and righteous persons who fear Allâh much (abstain from all kinds of sins and evil deeds which He has forbidden) and love Allâh much (perform all kinds of good deeds which He has ordained)>.
M. Pickthall:     This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
M.H. Shakir:     This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

Guess there were people that couldn't read or didn't know quran. That simple. Scripture meaning quran.


This is what happens when you don't study from those who possess more knowledge than yours.Hope atleast now you realise the need of studying from those who spent there lives in gaining knowledge sincerly. Shall share a link insha Allah.

Please do.

Don't bring up new topics inless old ones are solved. Else we may get messed up.

Sure.



P.S. I thought I would share this too:

"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
"The parchment that the verse about stoning to death for adultery was written on was eaten and abrogated by a goat." (Ibni Majah 36/1944; Ibni Hanbal 3/61; 5/131,132,183; 6/269).
"The punishment for cutting the fingers of a woman is to pay her: 10 camels for one finger, 20 camels for two fingers, 30 camels for three fingers, and 20 (twenty) camels for four fingers" (Hanbel 2/182; Muvatta 43/11).
"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).
"Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22).
"The Prophet never urinated in standing position" (Hanbel 6/136,192,213).
"The prophet urinated in standing position" (Bukhary 4/60,62).
"Do not eat and drink with your left hand, because Satan eats and drinks with the left hand" (Hanbel 2/8,33). How convenient for lefties , but what's the fuss, they only make up 15-25% of the population.

And there are many more..



P.P.S. All written above wasn't approved for some reason. Is there some kind of a censorship on this board and you only approve of what you find suitable for yourself?

Originally posted by haris30432

Peace,
 

Its true that i have a different understanding of Islam than many in this forum. However i do take offence in any form or level of mockery of GOD, the Quran and his messengers.There fore,dear brother, i would like to request you to double check some of your posts as it slightly has a tone of mockery.

If you feel like that, I am sorry, cause I am not making fun of any religion. I find some stuff silly, hard to understand, sure, but not in any way I am trying to mock the religion. Yeah, in some matters I could be slightly sarcastic towards a person..

Plus if you do not consider yourself a muslim yet,i would request you to kindly be more respectful in ur questions.And even though i disagree with Seekshidayath on many issues,i agree with her opinion that this discussion may be better done in the non-muslims section.


I don't consider myself muslim no more. I mean I believe there's One God, I try to avoid pork, yeah. But I am not sure where I stand on islam at the moment, (LOTS of QUESTIONS, trust me), so I don't mind moving this thread.


Peace :)


Edited by calvindamenace - 05 March 2010 at 6:47am
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bullet Posted: 03 March 2010 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath


7. Now, what if there is a dispute between scholars who has sound knowledge, wisdom and sincerity? Well, for a common person, he has to be sincere in obeying Allah and His messenger and should do his best to get most right opinion. If in this process he err or the scholars to whom he follows make mistake, the person cannot be responsible.

We've talked about it I go to see a scholar if I am troubled with something myself and can't resolve it on my own. How can I figure which one of these scholars is right since they are "learned people" not me. If a scholar makes something that is sin acceptable, then it's his sin, not mine. Beautiful.

8. Proof! well it is simply established by the last verse in Surah Baqarah "On no soul doth Allah Place a burden greater than it can bear. It gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. (Pray:) "Our Lord! Condemn us not if we forget or fall into error; our Lord! Lay not on us a burden Like that which Thou didst lay on those before us; Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Blot out our sins, and grant us forgiveness. Have mercy on us. Thou art our Protector; Help us against those who stand against faith."

I stumbled upon an article not so long ago... So why are there people that commit suicide? That would be only a way out if a person's sure there's no way he/she could continue with their problems, right? I mean the reason you could take your own life if you do believe you can't bear it no more, right?


Edited by calvindamenace - 03 March 2010 at 9:07pm
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bullet Posted: 04 March 2010 at 2:00am

Don;t think calvindamenace is trying to offend anyone here, least of all GOd or the Qur'an. He wants answers thats all.
THere can really only be one answer to a question, and he's not getting that.
If the answers vary then he is bound to be suspicious about things. I would to. Actually I have been :) NOt anymore though. Am in a really nice place now, thanks to all muslims everywhere.

:D
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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bullet Posted: 04 March 2010 at 9:22am
 
 
  Oh!! dear brother Calv!! Star
 
  may Allah guide me and you and all Muslims into the truth!!
 I am trying to help as well, but I do not feel embarrassed to say.. I am not a scholar and do not have the answers for soooo mnay questions.. but let me add what i know about some of your questions as i heard it from a scholar..
 
 first: I am soooo proud of you and your wide knowledge about hadith and it makes me feel so sure Allah is guiding you to more of his true religion and raising your rank, in sha Allah.
 
"I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people" (Bukhary 97/36).
"Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah" (Bukhary 65/4,5; Hanbel 1/205,242,440).
 
 The scholars of hadiths answer you question about this as some people ask this like you:
 they said: in case some people want to lower the position of the prophets peace be upon them, or abuse any other prophet saying he is lower positions tell him this hadith: Do not make any distinction among the messengers; I am not even better than Jonah.
 
 But in case someone wants to abuse the prophet's high position or deny it, you will need this hadith: "I am the most honorable messenger, on the day of the judgment only I will think of my people"
 
 That is why dear brother we need to know more about the events and be soooo knowledgeable when  we talk about hadith,, because the hadith and even the aya is not separated form the event and the time to use it.
 
It is hadith+ an event+ the time to use it.
 
 that is why, my dear brother, the ignorant come and say.. hey we got a contradiction because they do not understand.
 
 
 


Edited by Full of Hopes - 04 March 2010 at 9:48am
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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bullet Posted: 04 March 2010 at 9:23am
 "The punishment for cutting the fingers of a woman is to pay her: 10 camels for one finger, 20 camels for two fingers, 30 camels for three fingers, and 20 (twenty) camels for four fingers" (Hanbel 2/182; Muvatta 43/11).
 
  I do not have the answer for this. I hope someone else can help.Ouch


Edited by Full of Hopes - 04 March 2010 at 9:36am
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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bullet Posted: 04 March 2010 at 9:34am

"The prophet said:'Do not write anything from me except the Quran. Whoever wrote, must destroy it" (Muslim, Zuhd 72; Hanbel 3/12,21,39).
"The prophet ordered Amr Ibn As to write everything that he speaks" (Hanbel 2/162).

  Brother again here you need the event, the time and purpose to study a certain hadith. The first hadith was in the in the beginning of Islam.. not  many people know Quraan and if the hadith is written it might be mixed with Quraan and be confusing at that time.. then after that, it was fine cause many people knew Quraan very well.. 

 "Omar said: Quran is enough for us, do not write anything from the prophet" (Bukhary, Jihad 176, Gizya 6, Ilim 49, Marza 17, Megazi 83, Itisam 26; Muslim, Vasiyya 20,21,22). 
 
 Yeah, dear brother, Umar RAA, said saw because this happened when the prophet peace be upon him was on the bed and before his death. he was so sick and people were fighting in front of him, when he said, let me write something for you. At that time. Umar, RAA, felt the mercy on the prophet, pace be upon him because he was sick and wanted to make them stop fighting so that he reminded them of Quraan. So that again you need to know the time a certain hadith is said.
 
 


Edited by Full of Hopes - 04 March 2010 at 9:50am
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers(3:85)
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