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Basics of Islam
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rami
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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 2:36am
Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum Hope

Your basic asumtion is wrong, that jews and christians worship a god other than Allah.

Jews follow the teachings of the prophet moses as well as all the other prophets leading upto and not including jesus. Christians are the same as jews except the believe in jesus and go even further as to make him a deity.

The above is atested in the Quran it self when it says look to previous scriptures to confirm what is in the Quran, further we are the cousins of the jews descending from abraham and we both believe in the same God that Abraham believed in. Allah also acknowledges them in the Quran as being among those who worship him when he called them people of the book, and among the non muslims it is only the jews and christians that a muslim can marry no one else.

Your argument that jews and christians believe in a different God than what we do has no basis in Islam no scholar sahaba or tabii has made such a claim and it would constatute Kufr on the part of the person who believed this as they would be acusing the prophet Muhammad of worshiping other than the God of Abraham and bringing his own new religion.

Judaism and christianity existed before Islam and our liniage and heratige goes back to abraham and from there along the same lineage all the way back to adam, it is more acurate to say they believe in the same god but are not following his comandments than to say they worship a different god.

Allah has clearly stated the only sin he will not forgive is that of shirk,

4:116 Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this: one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).

non muslims will be punished in hell but any person who has not commited the sin of shirk will be taken out of hell eventualy and go to jannah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 601:
Narrated Ma'bad bin Hilal Al'Anzi:
We, i.e., some people from Basra gathered and went to Anas bin Malik, and we went in company with Thabit Al-Bunnani so that he might ask him about the Hadith of Intercession on our behalf. Behold, Anas was in his palace, and our arrival coincided with his Duha prayer. We asked permission to enter and he admitted us while he was sitting on his bed. We said to Thabit, "Do not ask him about anything else first but the Hadith of Intercession." He said, "O Abu Hamza! There are your brethren from Basra coming to ask you about the Hadith of Intercession." Anas then said, "Muhammad talked to us saying, 'On the Day of Resurrection the people will surge with each other like waves, and then they will come to Adam and say, 'Please intercede for us with your Lord.' He will say, 'I am not fit for that but you'd better go to Abraham as he is the Khalil of the Beneficent.' They will go to Abraham and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Moses as he is the one to whom Allah spoke directly.' So they will go to Moses and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Jesus as he is a soul created by Allah and His Word.' (Be: And it was) they will go to Jesus and he will say, 'I am not fit for that, but you'd better go to Muhammad.' They would come to me and I would say, 'I am for that.' Then I will ask for my Lord's permission, and it will be given, and then He will inspire me to praise Him with such praises as I do not know now. So I will praise Him with those praises and will fall down, prostrate before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for your will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' And then it will be said, 'Go and take out of Hell (Fire) all those who have faith in their hearts, equal to the weight of a barley grain.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down (prostrate) before Him. Then it will be said, 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers! My followers!' It will be said, 'Go and take out of it all those who have faith in their hearts equal to the weight of a small ant or a mustard seed.' I will go and do so and return to praise Him with the same praises, and fall down in prostration before Him. It will be said, 'O, Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to, and ask, for you will be granted (your request); and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted.' I will say, 'O Lord, my followers!' Then He will say, 'Go and take out (all those) in whose hearts there is faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed. (Take them) out of the Fire.' I will go and do so."' When we left Anas, I said to some of my companions, "Let's pass by Al-Hasan who is hiding himself in the house of Abi Khalifa and request him to tell us what Anas bin Malik has told us." So we went to him and we greeted him and he admitted us. We said to him, "O Abu Said! We came to you from your brother Anas Bin Malik and he related to us a Hadith about the intercession the like of which I have never heard." He said, "What is that?" Then we told him of the Hadith and said, "He stopped at this point (of the Hadith)." He said, "What then?" We said, "He did not add anything to that." He said, Anas related the Hadith to me twenty years ago when he was a young fellow. I don't know whether he forgot or if he did not like to let you depend on what he might have said." We said, "O Abu Said ! Let us know that." He smiled and said, "Man was created hasty. I did not mention that, but that I wanted to inform you of it. Anas told me the same as he told you and said that the Prophet added, 'I then return for a fourth time and praise Him similarly and prostrate before Him me the same as he 'O Muhammad, raise your head and speak, for you will be listened to; and ask, for you will be granted (your request): and intercede, for your intercession will be accepted .' I will say, 'O Lord, allow me to intercede for whoever said, 'None has the right to be worshiped except Allah.' Then Allah will say, 'By my Power, and my Majesty, and by My Supremacy, and by My Greatness, I will take out of Hell (Fire) whoever said: 'None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.' '' 

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) is described in the Quran as being a mercy for all humanity and a mesenger for all creation not just a single nation like all previous prophets, so notice in the last part that he does not ask to intercede only for his followers like he did every other time but simply those who simply said La illaha ila llah.

Also notice how allah replied he doesnt say by my mercy but by his majesty supremacy and Greatness indicating that somthing extra ordinary is occuring here. All muslims are promised Jannah already some will go to hell first but all will eventualy go to jannah so the fact that rasul allah does not mention "my followers" as he did every other time and allah not mentioning he is doing this out of his mercy but his Greatness his supremacy and majesty atributes which we should be in awe of and indicating we should apreciate the significance of the event.

One esential point here is that the third time he aks foir intercession allah says take out those who had " faith even to the lightest, lightest mustard seed." but in the last interseccion they are not described as having any faith but having simply said la illah ilah llah.

Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 9:44am

My apologies hope for not responding to you,

As'Salaamu Alaikum!

Let's be clear that my statements did not imply anything other than Islamic knowledge. My statement was in regards to the one who repents at the time of death and that in that moment God knows whether to forgive or not. I always believe God is constantly allowing his mercy to pour onto us humans everyday, but since we are the most intelligent of God's creatures we must our intellect to get much closer to God. Intelligence is paramount to getting closer to God!

As brother Rami notes, theologically, polytheist will not attain closeness to God as they worship other gods beside the Only Creator of the universe. However I will note that even for atheist there is hope for them because as far as I'm concerned atheist not like polytheist deny any god. In fact that is a fraction of the shahada! Now if the atheist can turn theist then monotheist  this would be an improvement towards God. This is my point.

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Quote miasghar Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:34am

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

"Heaven is for those who follow Allah's religion,....."

Asalaam-o-Alaikum

I would like to add that Allah's "religion" has been "submission to His Will" as conveyed by every Prophet (pbut all). The name given to this "way of life" is Islam. Having said that I would like to mention a hadith (I do not know the exact wording) that says that the Holy Prophet (saw) once said that "no one will enter paradise except that Allah (swt) has Mercy on him". The Holy Prophet (saw) was asked "Even you, O Prophet of Allah?" and he replied in the affirmative.

So the correct faith and good deeds can make us "good candidates" for His Mercy but ultimately, Allah's justice will prevail in the case of those of us who have the misfortune of having our deeds and faith looked into. Blessed will be those who do not have any accountability or at the most only in a cursory manner. Allah humma hasibny hisabyen yaseera. Aameen

He is truly grateful (to Allah) who realises his inability to adequately thank Allah (swt)
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 4:46pm
Miasghar Ameen
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Quote hope Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:02pm

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum Hope

Your basic asumtion is wrong, that jews and christians worship a god other than Allah.

Allah also acknowledges them in the Quran as being among those who worship him when he called them people of the book, and among the non muslims it is only the jews and christians that a muslim can marry no one else.

Your argument that jews and christians believe in a different God than what we do has no basis in Islam no scholar sahaba or tabii has made such a claim and it would constatute Kufr on the part of the person who believed this as they would be acusing the prophet Muhammad of worshiping other than the God of Abraham and bringing his own new religion.

Judaism and christianity existed before Islam..

Asalamu Alaiykum brother Rami

Just to make clear I know that judism and christianity of today grew out of the corruption of the message sent by Allah's (swt) prophets. I think this was a matter of semantics. I was merely saying that you cannot accept Allah (swt) as your Lord and then deny what he has sent and commanded us to follow. How can you worship if you don't obey? It doesn't make sense.  Do you see my point? Anyway I do see your point so we will say that the people of the book all worship Allah (swt) ok.

 

I appreciate the hadith brother rami but there is so much in the Qu'ran that says the kafir will burn in hell.  In fact the jew is cursed in the Qu'ran. The christians believe in a trinity that is shrik (the unforgivable sin) so that takes care of the people of the book.  And Qu'ran trumps hadith.

 

Lo! those who disbelieve and turn from the way of Allah and then die disbelievers, Allah surely will not pardon them. 47:34

"Whoever wishes for a way of life other that Islaam, never will it be accepted from them and in the hereafter they will be amongst the losers" 3:85

Verily, those who disbelieved, and die while they are disbelievers, the whole earth full of gold will not be accepted from anyone of them even if they offered it as a ransom. For them is a painful torment and they will have no helpers" 3:91

The Qu'ran says the kafir will burn in hell.

There are also hadith that say the kafir will burn in hell:

"On the day of judgment a disbeliever will be asked: 'Suppose you had as much gold as to fill the earth, would you offer it to ransom yourself from the hell-fire?' He will reply: 'Yes!' Then it will be said to him: 'You were asked for something easier than that, that you should join none in worship with Allaah, and submit yourself to Him, but you refused'" ( sahih Bukhari )

 

"By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, there is no-one of this Ummah, Jew or Christian, who hears of me then dies without believing in that with which I have been sent, but he will be one of the people of Hell." (Sahih Muslim, 153).

 

The Quran AND hadith say the Kafir will burn in hell.

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Quote hope Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by Israfil

My apologies hope for not responding to you,

As'Salaamu Alaikum!

Let's be clear that my statements did not imply anything other than Islamic knowledge. My statement was in regards to the one who repents at the time of death and that in that moment God knows whether to forgive or not...Now if the atheist can turn theist then monotheist  this would be an improvement towards God. This is my point.

Wasalaam ! Thank for the reply.

It is more clear and I understand that you are saying that anyone who repents and accepts sahaddah at any point before death may be forgiven and Allah (swt) is the most merciful. I agree. I thought you were  saying something like those of the Bahai faith or others who say that every religion is a different path to the same source or end because that is not true. If someone rejects true Islam, then it is they who are the losers on the Day of Judgement as Allah has said.



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Quote hope Replybullet Posted: 25 August 2005 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by miasghar

Originally posted by rami

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

"Heaven is for those who follow Allah's religion,....."

Asalaam-o-Alaikum

I would like to add that Allah's "religion" has been "submission to His Will" as conveyed by every Prophet (pbut all). The name given to this "way of life" is Islam. Having said that I would like to mention a hadith (I do not know the exact wording) that says that the Holy Prophet (saw) once said that "no one will enter paradise except that Allah (swt) has Mercy on him". The Holy Prophet (saw) was asked "Even you, O Prophet of Allah?" and he replied in the affirmative.

Asalaamu Alaykum brother  - I agree with your first statement, but the conclusion you made from the hadith you refer to conflicts .Are you saying that this hadith means that a disbeliever can enter jennah? If so, (forgive me if I am wrong brother) I can’t see how you came to the conclusion.

 

I could just as easily conclude that this hadith mean that even the best of muslims (even a sinless prophet) are mercy of Allah (swt). The ayats I quoted in my other post support this.

I think that we should use what we know to make the best choices and help others to see the light and truth that is islam. I don’t want to waste any time or give anyone a false sense of hope. We are ALL at the mercy of Allah (swt) even the best or most pious among us  yes, but He has told us in the Qu’ran and sunnah to follow his deen. We are told exactly what to do to be rewarded on Yamul Qiyamat.

Jennah has price! It’s not easy to enter.

"When Allah created paradise and hell, he sent Jibreel (Gabriel) to paradise, saying: 'Go and look at it and the things I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants. He then came back and said: 'By your glory, whosoever will hear of it will long to enter it.'

 So he ordered that it be surrounded by forms of hardship, and said to Jibreel: 'Go back and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went back and found that it was surrounded by forms of hardship. Then he came back and said: 'By your glory, I fear that no-one will enter it.'

 

Then he sent him to the fire of hell saying, 'Go and look at it and what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he looked at it and saw that it was in layers, one above the other. Then he came back and said: 'By your glory, whoever hears of it will never try to enter it.'

So he ordered that it be surrounded by passions and desires, and said: 'Go and see what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.' So he went and looked at it, then came back and said, 'by your glory, I fear that no-one will escape from entering it.'" (Muslim, Abu Daawud and Imaam Ahmad)

I mean if the prophet (pbuh) will enter paradise at the mercy of Allah (swt) do you think a disbeliever actually has any chance?

 



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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 26 August 2005 at 7:53pm

Hope Salaam,

Yes I was implying that but I have to say I disagree with you on another level here. When pluralistic religions use the premise of aligning religions even those whose premise is very distant in actuality the particulars of each religion which promotes peace and co-existence with other humans is indeed the path of Islam! even if the theologies are different the will of God exist in all aspects of life even in the development of religions which deny him and those thatr multiply him. Allah is he who is Lord of all and nothing can exist without him knowing it.

I may be a bit unorthodox but I believe that God is merciful and more merciful than how we perceive in his holy book. I believe since the words which God has crystallize in the Qur'an are in the human language its difficult to understand their true purity and when we see the words mercy, paradise, heaven and hell we truly cannot know the knowledge of what each entails therefore we on our behalf cannot judge (rightfully) because such is for God and not mankind even if we are a witness to  clear and conscious error.

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