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Interfaith Dialogue
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Akhe Abdullah
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 11:53am
Salams Mansoor Ali, good job!May Allah Bless you
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Ron Webb
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Quote Ron Webb Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 12:32pm

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

4:59: O you who believe! Obey Allh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.

This rule is stipulated in many more verses, but the above 2 should be enough for now.Why Muslims submit to the prophet Muhammad, in the rules and orders he has made, in what he has forbidden and what he has made legal, is because God himself has commanded us to!

Please note the words I have underlined above.  God has commanded you to obey not just Muhammad but all those who are in authority.  How do you interpret that?  Do you obey all leaders, forever?  Of course not.  Obviously there are limits to the authority of human leaders.  You obey those in authority only for as long as they remain in authority; and the authority of a human leader never extends beyond his death.  Only gods are eternal.

By singling out Muhammad among all other earthly leaders and claiming that his authority (unlike every other earthly leader) is eternal, you are claiming for Muhammad the kind of authority that rightfully belongs only to God.  That's the way I see it, anyway.
 
If I were a Muslim, and Muhammad gave me a command, I would obey it.  However, Muhammad (peace be upon him) is dead.  He cannot give me a command.  His words were addressed to his contemporaries, not to me; and although they may be inspirational or helpful in my understanding of the Quran, only Allah's words in the Quran remain authoritative for all time.  The only meaningful way in which I can "obey the Messenger" is by obeying his Message.


Edited by Ron Webb - 12 October 2009 at 12:34pm
Addeenul Aql Religion is intellect.
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2009 at 8:41pm
Today, however, the beard sends a much different message.  Beards are associated not so much with Islam as with Islamism -- the kind of fundamentalist extremism that flies airplanes into buildings.

I'm fairly sure that if Muhammad were alive today he would think it more important to distinguish peaceful Muslims from that kind of hatred and violence.  He might very well command Muslims not to have beards.  In any case, beards are not mentioned in the Quran, which we know is perfect and complete.  If Allah left it out of the Quran that can only be because it is not essential to Islam.

But Ron this is YOUR interpretation of the beard.. from YOUR perspective as a westerner who comes from an outside perspective. Having lived in Pakistan you see that the world view is not YOUR view.  Most men have beards and it is not t he 'symbol' you recognize it as. And we have a firm belief that all will be explained.

I think when you get to the core, we do not pray to Prophet Mohammed (SAWS) we do not think he created us, nor will decide our fate. We do believe he (SAWS) is our role model here on this earth as a human bring to reach a deeper spiritual level as well as HOW to be a good servant to Allah.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 12:43am

Originally posted by Ron W

Calling them prophets instead of partners changes nothing.  The point is that you attribute to them the characteristics that are inherent to gods, but not to men.  To me, that is "making partners" with Allah.  (And if that is not what it means, I wonder what it does mean?)

There are two types of partnerships 1. the partnership in the godhead 2. the partnership in works what God would tell you to do and you do it...They are partnership with entirely different perspectives...Read the following verse and you will see what I am elaborating...

  Scenario from the "Battle of Badr" where a small and  ill equipped band of Muslims defeated the well arrayed army of pagans three times theirs ... begun the miraculous but unprecedented journey to the ultimate miracle of destroying the paganism and trinitanianism once for all in the land...It is well recorded even by the western historians who have recognized this as most improbable event but don't want to call it a miracle...Does it matter when Allah clearly stated:
 8:17 (Picktall) Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower...

With this sign you can see Mhmd and his Companions to be Allah's partners, or for you it is just semantics; I think you are hung up on,...or 
you need to understand that whatever act a Muslim or rather Momin performs according to Allah's command he or she is Allah's is credited ....even his mundane day to day stuff ...

If I send you a package by courier, and you insult the courier, does that imply that you are insulting me?

Ron: no, courier is wrong example, use some level requiring protocol; such rules don't apply for nobodies...say you have a position of authority and  sent your ambassador and see what happens then...There are always unintended consequences for sure...

I don't know what point you're trying to make with all of this, since we agree that a person does not have to be infallible in all things in order to recite the Quran correctly.  As you said, even some children can do it.

The children do by rote and do not have any burden of delivering the message to a hostile crowd...So if I understand what Meditations said the prophet has to be an infallible person to stand his ground to be able to deliver the message as required by God and also expound when needed...   

Except that it would be extraordinarily unlikely for a person never to make an error in his entire life, and you have no evidence that such is the case for Muhammad or any other prophet

Of course he never did err cuz his life was under micro scope  and visually recorded better than any head of state of his time and Allah would not let him make any blunder and as it is recorded one instance ... I thought you would know cuz you are debating Quran only stand when he did neglect a blind man looking for knowledge while he was talking to a leader of some tribe...read sura Abasa and then come back..................


The very fact that it is a "negotiable" topic should tell you something.  Scholars (who are indisputably not infallible) endlessly pick through the hadith, arguing about which ones are strong or weak, which are religious and which are not, which are authentic and which are forgeries.  My understanding is that Islam's main "claim to fame" over the other world religions is that it is (allegedly) based on the literal word of God, communicated without error and without human intercession.  If that is a reason to accept the Quran, then surely it is a reason to reject the hadith.

Not exactly ... he would consult for some items with his companions, e.g, how to make call for prayer was not in the revelations... was established by suggestion of a companion Umar that would be distinct from the other religions and so it is today...

At every turn you keep running the broken record of reject Hadith...It seems you have no sense or understanding about what he had accomplished ... a fully functioning state with a Islamic Jurisprudence to adjudicate case law and enforcement, that no previous prophet was able to...The Jurisprudence developed was per his Hadith or vice versa...He was the law giver and facilitator of new rules...

The Sharia became the foundation for newly established Islamic Caliphate one the largest empire world ever saw in ME.

Even after breakup of Caliphate, the new states created laws keep the Sharia rules in view except a few.

Most Muslims love to know their prophet(s) biographical details end learn about his sunnah that gives the interplay of revelation and the multiple roles he played. How do you expect to expunge the role of a teacher's saying from the scenario? Being a westerner you may not value and the power of sermon but in Muslim world it is a unimaginable to let that go... Other than modernist people fall in love reading his lectures and fall in love with...Even think about a great emancipator of Indians from the Brits ...

What should we think about our prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, when someone with the worldly status such as Mahatma Gandhi, speaking on the character of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, says in 'Young India':

"I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."

Rather next comes the bios of his Caliphs and his other famous companions and their commentaries on everything...They have a rich source that the Christian west is devoid of cuz they don't have much knowledge of their Christ...So they are totally in different ball parks.

Nevertheless, it's unarguable that Prophet Muhammad is the role model in all aspects of life

Not "the" role model, just a role model.  An excellent one, according to the Quran, but not the only possible one.  He is certainly not an ideal role model for women, for example.  As for "all aspects of life", I don't see why that is unarguable.  If Muhammad went about on a horse or a camel, do we all have to ride horses and camels?

His wives would do that role, don't worry and be facetious ...Then you will pick on their hadith, ...Horse or camel ride why not it is an extra credit, Don't have to...but who knows in a desert it might be more fun...LOL
Let us also not overlook his other aspects of life as seen by others...
I found K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, an Indian (Hindu) professor of Philosophy, in his booklet "Muhammad the Prophet of Islam" calls him the "perfect model for human life." Professor Ramakrishna Rao explains his point by saying:

"The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero."







Edited by Sign*Reader - 13 October 2009 at 4:53pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Quote martha Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 1:01am
Originally posted by Hayfa

Today, however, the beard sends a much different message.  Beards are associated not so much with Islam as with Islamism -- the kind of fundamentalist extremism that flies airplanes into buildings.

I'm fairly sure that if Muhammad were alive today he would think it more important to distinguish peaceful Muslims from that kind of hatred and violence.  He might very well command Muslims not to have beards.  In any case, beards are not mentioned in the Quran, which we know is perfect and complete.  If Allah left it out of the Quran that can only be because it is not essential to Islam.

But Ron this is YOUR interpretation of the beard.. from YOUR perspective as a westerner who comes from an outside perspective. Having lived in Pakistan you see that the world view is not YOUR view.  Most men have beards and it is not t he 'symbol' you recognize it as. And we have a firm belief that all will be explained.

I think when you get to the core, we do not pray to Prophet Mohammed (SAWS) we do not think he created us, nor will decide our fate. We do believe he (SAWS) is our role model here on this earth as a human bring to reach a deeper spiritual level as well as HOW to be a good servant to Allah.

 
Good reply HAyfaClap
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Quote Akhe Abdullah Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 8:30am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

The only meaningful way in which I can "obey the Messenger" is by obeying his Message.
Salams Ron,this is simi correct except the message is not theirs the message is from Allah remember this in the Qur'an that even Prophet Isa say never would I say anything that I was'nt commanded to say.ie No Prophet had there own agenda
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Quote Meditations Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 12:54pm
Dear Ron

I think this topic is drifting from you asking what 'muslims' think/believe in into dictating how muslims should think/believe in, based on your opinion or your sole understanding
Something that is not perceived very well I have to tell you


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Calling them prophets instead of partners changes nothing.  The point is that you attribute to them the characteristics that are inherent to gods, but not to men.  To me, that is "making partners" with Allah.  (And if that is not what it means, I wonder what it does mean?)

This is because we differ on which attributes that are solely inherented to God, which God does NOT grant to humans

Our view is based on logic and belief
There's nothing logical evidence that demonstrate the impossibility of God granting these attributes to other creatures if God wills and if it remains granted attributes, not self stated one's


Originally posted by Ron Webb

If I send you a package by courier, and you insult the courier, does that imply that you are insulting me?

The analogy in this statement is not correct because we don't accept Prophets to be mere couriers who are apart from the sender to start with

you're using your view, with our judgment to make a point
Anyone who knows about logic or rules debate will point you to the flaw in the statement

That said, just for the sake of proving a point

If a king sends you a messenger with a message and you insult the messenger, it implies insulting the king, yes.

In the case of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), if God, king of all, sends you someone with a message, that says that this person is

To be obeyed
Mercy for all mankind
Comes with guidance

And then you decide to insult him, then it implies you're insulting God, which implies rejecting this God, meaning, blasphemy

Also, the verse you're debating about ( 4:65 ) about Him ( PBUH ) being a judge,

By definition this gives Him ( PBUH ) authority to judge, correct ?
it by no means implies being a mere courier.

Originally posted by Ron Webb

I don't know what point you're trying to make with all of this, since we agree that a person does not have to be infallible in all things in order to recite the Quran correctly.  As you said, even some children can do it.

This was a simple logic applied to your concept and proved the idea to be wrong

For us delivering a message is different from mere reciting Qur'an, as you just agreed on children can do it,
the job of a messenger to just recite it Qur'an, this in itself doesn't make anything clear or explain it , which is part of the job of the messenger


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Except that it would be extraordinarily unlikely for a person never to make an error in his entire life,

True, it is extraordinary as well for the sea to be split or for someone to be thrown into fire and not burn or to be born with a mother and no father ...etc.
No one said only 'ordinary' events happens to Prophets
A miracle by definition is an extraordinary unlikely thing

Originally posted by Ron Webb

and you have no evidence that such is the case for Muhammad or any other prophet.

And you don't have a proof that they made errors which negates infallibility as we define it either

Originally posted by Ron Webb

The very fact that it is a "negotiable" topic should tell you something.

Which is ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Scholars (who are indisputably not infallible) endlessly pick through the hadith, arguing about which ones are strong or weak, which are religious and which are not, which are authentic and which are forgeries.  My understanding is that Islam's main "claim to fame" over the other world religions is that it is (allegedly) based on the literal word of God, communicated without error and without human intercession.  If that is a reason to accept the Quran, then surely it is a reason to reject the hadith.

It is a reason to reject hadith if proven wrong, or not proven to be linked to the source

If it is proven to be linked to the source which is Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) then it's our duty based on the Qur'an to follow it

This is what scholars exert effort in doing, finding out if a hadith is linked to the source or not, and by which degree


Originally posted by Ron Webb

Not "the" role model,

Let me rephrase
He ( PBUH ) is the role model for muslims, for non-believers, He ( PBUH ) could be or might be not

We choose him to be our role model, God choose Him ( PBUH ) for us to be a role model

لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيراً {21}
33:21 Yet, very truly, in the Messenger of God there is an excellent model for you-for whoever has hope in God and ( for salvation ) the last day and (therefor ) remembers God much

If you don't wish to do so, then you're entitled and free to do so, but it would be bizarre if you ask us not to do so

It would be bizarre to ask me to follow someone else, and leave someone whom God says about him

وَإِنَّكَ لَعَلى خُلُقٍ عَظِيمٍ {4}

68:4 : For Indeed you are most surely of sublime morality

Originally posted by Ron Webb

just a role model.  An excellent one, according to the Quran, but not the only possible one.

Do you know of another better one to follow ?
Even many non-muslims consider him to be the best role model

Also , Wouldn't God's choice be the best for us ?
The verse 33:21 is talking to all believers, not just those who met Him ( PBUH )

Originally posted by Ron Webb

He is certainly not an ideal role model for women, for example.

We should ask muslim women if He ( PBUH ) is or not, shouldn't we?

I suggest you make a poll in the discussion forum and see what the results would be

Originally posted by Ron Webb

As for "all aspects of life", I don't see why that is unarguable.  If Muhammad went about on a horse or a camel, do we all have to ride horses and camels?

Not necessarily, we can ride horses, camels, cars, planes
but how did he treat whatever he rode, how did he use it, is where we follow him in
This is our understanding, and this is what makes Islam so powerful, and applicable regardless of changes in time and space
We use analogy applies to text/events/actions



Every messenger had such authority until the time of the messenger that comes after him

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Is there any evidence of this, or is it just what you were taught?

This is what I was taught because there is evidence for this,
I was taught that evidence is the determining factor in accepting or rejecting anything
I was taught to question, debate and argue IF there's evidence on my side

Unlike what your question might imply, that we get taught to just follow blindfolded

As for the evidence
If you go to Surat As'Shuara's ( 26 )

you'll find in verses 108, 110, 126, 131, 144, 150, 163, 179 how Prophets commanded their people to do so

"So fear God, and obey me."

So all of them had such authority, and were asking to be obeyed

Originally posted by Ron Webb

If you read the whole passage you will see that Allah is talking about earlier apostles, who were sent "with clear arguments and scriptures", which had become corrupt (i.e., unclear) over time; and now Allah was sending the Reminder (the Quran) to explain (make clear) those earlier arguments and scriptures.
 
Though I don't accept this, instead of debating over it
If this verse is not very convincing to you, how about

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ بِلِسَانِ قَوْمِهِ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ فَيُضِلُّ اللّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ {4}
[Shakir 14:4] And We did not send any messenger but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; .... 

Or ( 16 : 36-39 )

وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ هَدَى اللّهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلالَةُ فَسِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَانظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ {36}
إِن تَحْرِصْ عَلَى هُدَاهُمْ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي مَن يُضِلُّ وَمَا لَهُم مِّن نَّاصِرِينَ {37}
وَأَقْسَمُواْ بِاللّهِ جَهْدَ أَيْمَانِهِمْ لاَ يَبْعَثُ اللّهُ مَن يَمُوتُ بَلَى وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا وَلـكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ {38}
لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمُ الَّذِي يَخْتَلِفُونَ فِيهِ وَلِيَعْلَمَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ أَنَّهُمْ كَانُواْ كَاذِبِينَ {39}


[16:36] And verily We have raised in every nation a messenger, (proclaiming): Serve Allah and shun false gods .....
[16:39] That He may explain unto them that wherein they differ, and that those who disbelieved may know that they were liars.

These verses should explain clearly the task of the messengers, and that they are not mere 'couriers' to the message they come with

Originally posted by Ron Webb

The Quran is the explanation of those scriptures.

Qur'an does have explanation to somethings in previous scriptures, but it's not only just this for sure, for it contains many things that were not in previous scriptures, as well as different tasks / rules as well 

Originally posted by Ron Webb

If Muhammad needed to add his own explanation of the explanation,

This phrase is not what muslims believe in

Prophet Muhammad didn't "need to add explanation" he was instructed to by God's revelation, and what He ( PBUH ) did was another form of revelation, it was not his 'own'

6:50 : Say ( to them O Muhammad ) I do not say to you that the treasures of God are with me, nor do I have ( on my own ) knowledge of the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect?

قُل لاَّ أَقُولُ لَكُمْ عِندِي خَزَآئِنُ اللّهِ وَلا أَعْلَمُ الْغَيْبَ وَلا أَقُولُ لَكُمْ إِنِّي مَلَكٌ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلاَّ مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ قُلْ هَلْ يَسْتَوِي الأَعْمَى وَالْبَصِيرُ أَفَلاَ تَتَفَكَّرُونَ {50}

Originally posted by Ron Webb

then the Quran was not perfect and complete, was it?

It is complete, for it contains all the revelation sent to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the Qu'ran
it does not contain all revelations sent to Prophet Muhammad, it contains only what was revealed to him as the Qur'an

Second : What in reciting would cause something that's unclear to become clear ? or something that's not understood to become understood
If I don't understand a verse and it's recited to me 10 times, I still won't understand it

Originally posted by Ron Webb

And if you read the hadith ten times, you might still not understand that either.

But that's not what we're discussing, we're discussing if the verse implies explaining or just a mere reciting

Another verse on the task of the Prophet ( PBUH ) in a similar context

كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولاً مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُواْ تَعْلَمُونَ {151}
[2:151] Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among your own selves, He recites to you Our verses And He purifies you and He teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that you did not know.


For us there's a clean distinction between, recitation, and teaching
The verse is talking about teaching in all aspects, not just teaching how to recite

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Then what?  An explanation for the explanation of the explanation?

Yes, untill you reach the knowledge you're seeking
No one said it's everybody's task, same as it's not everybody's task to be a doctor, engineer or fireman ....etc.

وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُواْ كَآفَّةً فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ {122}

9:122 And it does not beseem the believers that they should go forth all together; why should not then a company from every party from among them go forth that they may apply themselves to obtain understanding in religion, and that they may warn their people when they come back to them that they may be cautious?


Originally posted by Ron Webb

If you don't understand something in the Quran, then by all means read the hadith, or talk to an imam or a friend or anyone else who might be able to help you;

We seem to be getting close, so you agree that if we don't understand something in the Qur'an we go to hadith


We
Originally posted by Ron Webb

but then go back to Allah's own words, the only authoritative explanation,

If it was an explanation, then why would we have been going to all this

Originally posted by Ron Webb

and verify your understanding there.

Getting close as well
This is actually what scholars do, did anyone say that we don't verify / base judgment on the Qur'an ?

Third : that's not how the Prophet ( PBUH ) understood the Qur'an, nor the companions did, and surely the one who received the message is the best one to understand it , correct ?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Perhaps; but the best one to explain it is Allah Himself.

True, but why do you want limit the revelation to just the Qur'an and it's words ?

revelation and explanations comes in many forms
When Noah
( PBUH ) built the arch it was out of revelation
When Moses split the sea it was out of revelation,

Revelations could come to us as words or as a person practicing it in front of us to demonstrate to us how to perform a certain practice

It is for God to choose for us which form provides the best explanation
words or a person performing it in front of us

and this is what we believe in, the difference between us and you is that we believe Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was speaking/acting out of revelation and guidance from God, while you think/want us to believe he was putting his 'own'
We believe God explained it in the form that is the best for us.

Also, this doesn't answer the phrase, this is how Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) understood his task, and so did companions and those after them
Are you implying they were all mistaken ?

The verse above is clear that Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was but following the revelations sent to Him in his actions
6:50 :... . I but follow what is revealed to me. ......

Originally posted by Ron Webb

So much for Muhammad's commands being true for all time then.  If Muhammad were alive today, how many more of his commands would he abrogate or rescind?

None, for what we have now is the complete religion which God accepted for us.

Also note that abrogation is not unique to Hadith, it occurs in the Qur'an as well as previous scriptures as well

Also abrogation applies in the commands only, it doesn't apply to information, past events news ....etc.
while the sunna contains much more than just commands

unimportant to who ?
it was important to the Prophet ( PBUH ), and the companions and to all muslims that came afterward

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Unimportant to Allah, or He would have put it into the Quran.

And what's your evidence for this ?
that ALL important things are put in the Qur'an while anything that's not in the Qur'an in unimportant ?

It is as if we're trying to dictate to God where to put what is important, For us God doesn't get asked about His actions

Originally posted by Ron Webb

A great many things were important to the Prophet but not to me, and vice versa

you're free to decide what's important to you, Me as a muslim, I want to care about anything that was important to the Prophet ( PBUH ) whether it's related to Islam or not
I want to know what he liked, disliked , what he did and didn't
our relation with the Prophet ( PBUH ) is not based just on following, it's based on love

What matters to those you love, matters to you

Originally posted by Ron Webb

(e.g., he didn't need to know how a computer works,

This is an assumption, do you have evidence for this ? Smile that it wasn't revealed for Him ( PBUH ) how computers work ?

I'm not saying He did or did not, but the fact that it happened after His time doesn't mean He ( PBUH ) didn't know about it

We believe that He ( PBUH ) knew about events that would come after the end of the world, why wouldn't he know about events that's prior to that ?

Note that what Prophets disclose to people isn't necessarily ALL that they were taught, they deliver what is required from them to deliver, but God might teach them way more than this


Originally posted by Ron Webb

and I don't need to know how to ride a camel).


Nor do I need to if I don't live somewhere where camels is a transportation method
But as mentioned, that's not how we understand following the Prophet ( PBUH ), so this is not what you're debating us in

What's in prayers, fasting, zakah, hajj varies from different times and circumstances ?


Originally posted by Ron Webb

The traditional rules for prayers and fasting are impossible to follow north of the Arctic Circle, where the sun never sets or rises for months at a time.

According to who ?
Again I find you 'stating' instead of asking
The state you're talking about is called in fiqh , imbalance of timings

Prophet ( PBUH ) was asked explicitly about how to perform practices during such situations, and He ( PBUH) guided us on what to do

I read a while back about a mosque being built in Norway quite close the the north pole
you can pay them a visit in ramadan and see how they perform prayers and fasting 
I think they welcome visitors interested in Islam
Smile

In prayers ( salat ) we read Qur'an then bow down, what might happen that cause this to be the other way around ?


Originally posted by Ron Webb

I have no objection to tradition. What I'm saying is that if it's not in the "complete and fully detailed" Quran,

Qur'an IS complete for what we have today is what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the "Qur'an"
it guide us to sources of anything we need


Who ever said Qur'an is 'fully detailed' ?


Originally posted by Ron Webb

then Allah obviously doesn't care.

This is another difference between us and you
We base our judgment of what is important and what is not important based on revelation not on our personal judgments

Originally posted by Ron Webb

What might happen if it you did it the other way around?

Then I would be mistaken, doing something the wrong way

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Do you think you'd go to Hell or something? 

Going to hell or heaven is not based on a single action, but rather a lifetime of action
nevertheless, doing something that you 'know' is wrong, and insisting on doing deliberately the wrong way for no reason except wishes to be different is a very unfavored action, that might result in grave consequences
In this case the wrong action in itself is not the problem, bur rather arrogance

Arrogance is a big sin in Islam, it was the main reason iblis was taken out of heaven

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Is your God really that shallow?

God of heaven and earth is not shallow, but doesn't God of heaven and earth deserve that I worship as God's will, not as I will ?
Shouldn't I love my God enough to want to do my actions in a perfect way ? rather than just 'anyway' ?

As mentioned before, the rule to follow the messenger is a general rule
If you want to apply exceptions, you need proof for that exception


Originally posted by Ron Webb

And as I mentioned before, it is impossible to literally "follow" a person who is long dead.

Then you just answered your question that started the topic,
If it is impossible to follow him, then it's impossible to act as if he's partner with God

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Even when he was alive, do you imagine a long line of Muslims in single file, literally "following" him around all day?  Of course not.

The word follower doesn't mean only someone who's literally following, it means someone who follow your traces, actions
And this is precisely what the companions did

Originally posted by Ron Webb

One has to read and understand it in context, and the context is his function as a messenger, delivering and following the Quran.

Great, so based on what you just said
He ( PBUH ) delivered the Qur'an, which instructs believers to perform prayers
He ( PBUH ) followed the Qur'an and performed prayers
We ( as followers ) should follow Him ( PBUH ) in performing the prayers

This is precisely what we do

We think of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the best leader to follow
Do you know of a better leader to follow ?

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Just about anybody who is not dead.

I would say you have very high level of tolerance if you're willing to be lead by just about anybody

Originally posted by Ron Webb

A leader needs to evaluate and respond to present circumstances.  Looking 1400 years into the past is not leadership.

Then look throughout Islamic history and see how muslims could always relate their lives to His life ( PBUH ) and find leadership in it

By following His teachings and applying it to matters of dispute in our times, this is how muslims understood this verse since the early days, for surely Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) wasn't present every place there was muslims


Originally posted by Ron Webb

That is not Muhammad judging.  That is somebody else judging, informed by the past actions and judgements of Muhammad.  Again, the judge has to evaluate and respond to the facts of whatever he is judging -- something that a dead man cannot do.

True, this is someone else judging the "same" judgment as Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) did, or based on it

To us this means Him ( PBUH ) judging, because this is where the ruling of this person's judging getting authority

a closer example to you could be with judgments in the Qur'an,
if a person goes to a judge/scholar ..etc.
Ask him about an issue, which has ruling is in the Qur'an, and the judge rules with what's in the Qur'an ,
who's judgment is it ? the judge's own judgment, or the judgment of God as revealed to us in the Qur'an ?
For this is how we see us applying the judgment of God

Muslims don't think of hadith in this broad general way, it's categorized in so many categories, ranging from authoritative to some that are not authoritive at all

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Rather like the Christian Bible, wouldn't you say? Smile

As mentioned before, current bible doesn't come anywhere close to even the weakest hadith

May God guide us all to the righteous path

Originally posted by Ron Webb

But first, may intellect guide us to the true God.  (Or not.) Wink

Totally agree, but this requires using correct intellect and correct usage of  logic Smile

Originally posted by Ron Webb

Salaam.

Salaam



Edited by Meditations - 13 October 2009 at 10:54pm
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Quote Sign*Reader Replybullet Posted: 13 October 2009 at 3:56pm
Originally posted by Meditations

Originally posted by Ron Webb

]

And as I mentioned before, it is impossible to literally "follow" a person who is long dead.

Meditations:
Then you just answered your question that started the topic,
If it is impossible to follow him, then it's impossible to act as if he's partner with God
.

Clap Touche

Ron W: with the above remark Meditations has struck you out unless you tenaciously cling on to base plate while the stadium has begun to empty with your crab personality likes of George W., there is nothing left! The game is over!



Edited by Sign*Reader - 13 October 2009 at 4:56pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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