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Akhe Abdullah
Male Islam Senior Member
Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252 |
![]() Posted: 12 October 2009 at 11:53am |
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Salams Mansoor Ali, good job!May Allah Bless you
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member
Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1408 |
![]() Posted: 12 October 2009 at 12:32pm |
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Originally posted by Mansoor_ali
4:59: O you who believe! Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger (Muhammad SAW), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allâh and His Messenger (SAW), if you believe in Allâh and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination. This rule is stipulated in many more verses, but the above 2 should be enough for now.Why Muslims submit to the prophet Muhammad, in the rules and orders he has made, in what he has forbidden and what he has made legal, is because God himself has commanded us to! Please note the words I have underlined above. God has commanded you to obey not just Muhammad but all those who are in authority. How do you interpret that? Do you obey all leaders, forever? Of course not. Obviously there are limits to the authority of human leaders. You obey those in authority only for as long as they remain in authority; and the authority of a human leader never extends beyond his death. Only gods are eternal. By singling out Muhammad among all other earthly leaders and claiming that his authority (unlike every other earthly leader) is eternal, you are claiming for Muhammad the kind of authority that rightfully belongs only to God. That's the way I see it, anyway.
If I were a Muslim, and Muhammad gave me a command, I would obey it. However, Muhammad (peace be upon him) is dead. He cannot give me a command. His words were addressed to his contemporaries, not to me; and although they may be inspirational or helpful in my understanding of the Quran, only Allah's words in the Quran remain authoritative for all time. The only meaningful way in which I can "obey the Messenger" is by obeying his Message. Edited by Ron Webb - 12 October 2009 at 12:34pm |
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Addeenul ‘Aql – Religion is intellect.
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Hayfa
Female Islam Senior Member
Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2370 |
![]() Posted: 12 October 2009 at 8:41pm |
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Today, however, the beard sends a much different message. Beards are associated not so much with Islam as with Islamism -- the kind of fundamentalist extremism that flies airplanes into buildings.
I'm fairly sure that if Muhammad were alive today he would think it more important to distinguish peaceful Muslims from that kind of hatred and violence. He might very well command Muslims not to have beards. In any case, beards are not mentioned in the Quran, which we know is perfect and complete. If Allah left it out of the Quran that can only be because it is not essential to Islam. But Ron this is YOUR interpretation of the beard.. from YOUR perspective as a westerner who comes from an outside perspective. Having lived in Pakistan you see that the world view is not YOUR view. Most men have beards and it is not t he 'symbol' you recognize it as. And we have a firm belief that all will be explained. I think when you get to the core, we do not pray to Prophet Mohammed (SAWS) we do not think he created us, nor will decide our fate. We do believe he (SAWS) is our role model here on this earth as a human bring to reach a deeper spiritual level as well as HOW to be a good servant to Allah. |
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member
Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352 |
![]() Posted: 13 October 2009 at 12:43am |
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Originally posted by Ron W Calling them prophets instead of partners changes nothing. The point is that you attribute to them the characteristics that are inherent to gods, but not to men. To me, that is "making partners" with Allah. (And if that is not what it means, I wonder what it does mean?) There are two types of partnerships 1. the partnership in the godhead 2. the partnership in works what God would tell you to do and you do it...They are partnership with entirely different perspectives...Read the following verse and you will see what I am elaborating... Scenario from the "Battle
of Badr" where a small and ill equipped band of Muslims defeated the
well arrayed army of pagans three times theirs ... begun the miraculous
but unprecedented journey to the ultimate miracle of destroying the
paganism and trinitanianism once for all in the land...It is well
recorded even by the western historians who have recognized this as
most improbable event but don't want to call it a miracle...Does it
matter when Allah clearly stated:
If I send you a package by courier, and you insult the courier, does that imply that you are insulting me? Ron: no, courier is wrong example, use some level requiring protocol; such rules don't apply for nobodies...say you have a position of authority and sent your ambassador and see what happens then...There are always unintended consequences for sure...
I don't know what point you're trying to make with all of this, since we agree that a person does not have to be infallible in all things in order to recite the Quran correctly. As you said, even some children can do it. The children do by rote and do not have any burden of delivering the message to a hostile crowd...So if I understand what Meditations said the prophet has to be an infallible person to stand his ground to be able to deliver the message as required by God and also expound when needed...
Except that it would be extraordinarily unlikely for a person never to make an error in his entire life, and you have no evidence that such is the case for Muhammad or any other prophet Of course he never did err cuz his life was under micro scope and visually recorded better than any head of state of his time and Allah would not let him make any blunder and as it is recorded one instance ... I thought you would know cuz you are debating Quran only stand when he did neglect a blind man looking for knowledge while he was talking to a leader of some tribe...read sura Abasa and then come back..................
The very fact that it is a "negotiable" topic should tell you something. Scholars (who are indisputably not infallible) endlessly pick through the hadith, arguing about which ones are strong or weak, which are religious and which are not, which are authentic and which are forgeries. My understanding is that Islam's main "claim to fame" over the other world religions is that it is (allegedly) based on the literal word of God, communicated without error and without human intercession. If that is a reason to accept the Quran, then surely it is a reason to reject the hadith. Not exactly ... he would consult for some items with his companions, e.g, how to make call for prayer was not in the revelations... was established by suggestion of a companion Umar that would be distinct from the other religions and so it is today... At every turn you keep running the broken record of reject Hadith...It seems you have no sense or understanding about what he had accomplished ... a fully functioning state with a Islamic Jurisprudence to adjudicate case law and enforcement, that no previous prophet was able to...The Jurisprudence developed was per his Hadith or vice versa...He was the law giver and facilitator of new rules... The Sharia became the foundation for newly established Islamic Caliphate one the largest empire world ever saw in ME. Even after breakup of Caliphate, the new states created laws keep the Sharia rules in view except a few. Most Muslims love to know their prophet(s) biographical details end learn about his sunnah that gives the interplay of revelation and the multiple roles he played. How do you expect to expunge the role of a teacher's saying from the scenario? Being a westerner you may not value and the power of sermon but in Muslim world it is a unimaginable to let that go... Other than modernist people fall in love reading his lectures and fall in love with...Even think about a great emancipator of Indians from the Brits ... "I wanted to know the best of one who holds today undisputed sway over the hearts of millions of mankind... I became more than convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the Prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and in his own mission. These and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every obstacle. When I closed the 2nd volume (of the Prophet's biography), I was sorry there was not more for me to read of the great life."Rather next comes the bios of his Caliphs and his other famous companions and their commentaries on everything...They have a rich source that the Christian west is devoid of cuz they don't have much knowledge of their Christ...So they are totally in different ball parks. Nevertheless, it's unarguable that Prophet Muhammad is the role model in all aspects of life
Not "the" role model, just a role model. An excellent one, according to the Quran, but not the only possible one. He is certainly not an ideal role model for women, for example. As for "all aspects of life", I don't see why that is unarguable. If Muhammad went about on a horse or a camel, do we all have to ride horses and camels? His wives would do that role, don't worry and be facetious ...Then you will pick on their hadith, ...Horse or camel ride why not it is an extra credit, Don't have to...but who knows in a desert it might be more fun...LOLLet us also not overlook his other aspects of life as seen by others... I found K. S. Ramakrishna Rao, an Indian (Hindu) professor of Philosophy, in his booklet "Muhammad the Prophet of Islam" calls him the "perfect model for human life." Professor Ramakrishna Rao explains his point by saying: "The personality of Muhammad, it is most difficult to get into the whole truth of it. Only a glimpse of it I can catch. What a dramatic succession of picturesque scenes. There is Muhammad the Prophet. There is Muhammad the Warrior; Muhammad the Businessman; Muhammad the Statesman; Muhammad the Orator; Muhammad the Reformer; Muhammad the Refuge of Orphans; Muhammad the Protector of Slaves; Muhammad the Emancipator of Women; Muhammad the Judge; Muhammad the Saint. All in all these magnificent roles, in all these departments of human activities, he is alike a hero."Edited by Sign*Reader - 13 October 2009 at 4:53pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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martha
Senior Member
Joined: 30 October 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1141 |
![]() Posted: 13 October 2009 at 1:01am |
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Originally posted by Hayfa
Today, however, the beard sends a much different message. Beards are associated not so much with Islam as with Islamism -- the kind of fundamentalist extremism that flies airplanes into buildings. I'm fairly sure that if Muhammad were alive today he would think it more important to distinguish peaceful Muslims from that kind of hatred and violence. He might very well command Muslims not to have beards. In any case, beards are not mentioned in the Quran, which we know is perfect and complete. If Allah left it out of the Quran that can only be because it is not essential to Islam. But Ron this is YOUR interpretation of the beard.. from YOUR perspective as a westerner who comes from an outside perspective. Having lived in Pakistan you see that the world view is not YOUR view. Most men have beards and it is not t he 'symbol' you recognize it as. And we have a firm belief that all will be explained. I think when you get to the core, we do not pray to Prophet Mohammed (SAWS) we do not think he created us, nor will decide our fate. We do believe he (SAWS) is our role model here on this earth as a human bring to reach a deeper spiritual level as well as HOW to be a good servant to Allah. Good reply HAyfa
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some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Akhe Abdullah
Male Islam Senior Member
Joined: 19 November 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1252 |
![]() Posted: 13 October 2009 at 8:30am |
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Originally posted by Ron Webb The only meaningful way in which I can "obey the Messenger" is by obeying his Message. remember this in the Qur'an that even Prophet Isa say never would I say anything that I was'nt commanded to say.ie No Prophet had there own agenda
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Meditations
Senior Member
Joined: 16 November 2002 Online Status: Offline Posts: 239 |
![]() Posted: 13 October 2009 at 12:54pm |
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Dear Ron
I think this topic is drifting from you asking what 'muslims' think/believe in into dictating how muslims should think/believe in, based on your opinion or your sole understanding Something that is not perceived very well I have to tell you Originally posted by Ron Webb Calling them prophets instead of partners changes nothing. The point is that you attribute to them the characteristics that are inherent to gods, but not to men. To me, that is "making partners" with Allah. (And if that is not what it means, I wonder what it does mean?) This is because we differ on which attributes that are solely inherented to God, which God does NOT grant to humans Our view is based on logic and belief There's nothing logical evidence that demonstrate the impossibility of God granting these attributes to other creatures if God wills and if it remains granted attributes, not self stated one's Originally posted by Ron Webb If I send you a package by courier, and you insult the courier, does that imply that you are insulting me? The analogy in this statement is not correct because we don't accept Prophets to be mere couriers who are apart from the sender to start with you're using your view, with our judgment to make a point If a king sends you a messenger with a message and you insult the messenger, it implies insulting the king, yes. In the case of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ), if God, king of all, sends you someone with a message, that says that this person is To be obeyed Also, the verse you're debating about ( 4:65 ) about Him ( PBUH ) being a judge, By definition this gives Him ( PBUH ) authority to judge, correct ? it by no means implies being a mere courier.
Originally posted by Ron Webb I don't know what point you're trying to make with all of this, since we agree that a person does not have to be infallible in all things in order to recite the Quran correctly. As you said, even some children can do it. This was a simple logic applied to your concept and proved the idea to be wrong For us delivering a message is different from mere reciting Qur'an, as you just agreed on children can do it, Originally posted by Ron Webb Except that it would be extraordinarily unlikely for a person never to make an error in his entire life, True, it is extraordinary as well for the sea to be split or for someone to be thrown into fire and not burn or to be born with a mother and no father ...etc. No one said only 'ordinary' events happens to Prophets A miracle by definition is an extraordinary unlikely thing Originally posted by Ron Webb and you have no evidence that such is the case for Muhammad or any other prophet. And you don't have a proof that they made errors which negates infallibility as we define it either
Originally posted by Ron Webb The very fact that it is a "negotiable" topic should tell you something. Which is ? Originally posted by Ron Webb Scholars (who are indisputably not infallible) endlessly pick through the hadith, arguing about which ones are strong or weak, which are religious and which are not, which are authentic and which are forgeries. My understanding is that Islam's main "claim to fame" over the other world religions is that it is (allegedly) based on the literal word of God, communicated without error and without human intercession. If that is a reason to accept the Quran, then surely it is a reason to reject the hadith. It is a reason to reject hadith if proven wrong, or not proven to be linked to the source If it is proven to be linked to the source which is Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) then it's our duty based on the Qur'an to follow it This is what scholars exert effort in doing, finding out if a hadith is linked to the source or not, and by which degree Originally posted by Ron Webb Not "the" role model, Let me rephrase He ( PBUH ) is the role model for muslims, for non-believers, He ( PBUH ) could be or might be not We choose him to be our role model, God choose Him ( PBUH ) for us to be a role model لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِي رَسُولِ اللَّهِ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الْآخِرَ وَذَكَرَ اللَّهَ كَثِيراً {21} If you don't wish to do so, then you're entitled and free to do so, but it would be bizarre if you ask us not to do so It would be bizarre to ask me to follow someone else, and leave someone whom God says about him 68:4 : For Indeed you are most surely of sublime morality
Originally posted by Ron Webb just a role model. An excellent one, according to the Quran, but not the only possible one. Do you know of another better one to follow ? Even many non-muslims consider him to be the best role model Also , Wouldn't God's choice be the best for us ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb He is certainly not an ideal role model for women, for example. We should ask muslim women if He ( PBUH ) is or not, shouldn't we? I suggest you make a poll in the discussion forum and see what the results would be Originally posted by Ron Webb As for "all aspects of life", I don't see why that is unarguable. If Muhammad went about on a horse or a camel, do we all have to ride horses and camels? Not necessarily, we can ride horses, camels, cars, planes but how did he treat whatever he rode, how did he use it, is where we follow him in This is our understanding, and this is what makes Islam so powerful, and applicable regardless of changes in time and space We use analogy applies to text/events/actions Every messenger had such authority until the time of the messenger that comes after him
Originally posted by Ron Webb Is there any evidence of this, or is it just what you were taught? This is what I was taught because there is evidence for this, As for the evidence you'll find in verses 108, 110, 126, 131, 144, 150, 163, 179 how Prophets commanded their people to do so "So fear God, and obey me." So all of them had such authority, and were asking to be obeyed Originally posted by Ron Webb If you read the whole passage you will see that Allah is talking about earlier apostles, who were sent "with clear arguments and scriptures", which had become corrupt (i.e., unclear) over time; and now Allah was sending the Reminder (the Quran) to explain (make clear) those earlier arguments and scriptures. Though I don't accept this, instead of debating over it If this verse is not very convincing to you, how about وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِن رَّسُولٍ إِلاَّ بِلِسَانِ قَوْمِهِ لِيُبَيِّنَ لَهُمْ فَيُضِلُّ اللّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ {4} Or ( 16 : 36-39 ) وَلَقَدْ بَعَثْنَا فِي كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ رَّسُولاً أَنِ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ وَاجْتَنِبُواْ الطَّاغُوتَ فَمِنْهُم مَّنْ هَدَى اللّهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ حَقَّتْ عَلَيْهِ الضَّلالَةُ فَسِيرُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ فَانظُرُواْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الْمُكَذِّبِينَ {36}
These verses should explain clearly the task of the messengers, and that they are not mere 'couriers' to the message they come with
Originally posted by Ron Webb The Quran is the explanation of those scriptures. Qur'an does have explanation to somethings in previous scriptures, but it's not only just this for sure, for it contains many things that were not in previous scriptures, as well as different tasks / rules as well
Originally posted by Ron Webb If Muhammad needed to add his own explanation of the explanation, This phrase is not what muslims believe in Prophet Muhammad didn't "need to add explanation" he was instructed to by God's revelation, and what He ( PBUH ) did was another form of revelation, it was not his 'own' 6:50 : Say ( to them O Muhammad ) I do not say to you that the treasures of God are with me, nor do I have ( on my own ) knowledge of the unseen, nor do I say to you that I am an angel. I but follow what is revealed to me. Say: Are the blind and the seeing one alike? Do you not then reflect?
Originally posted by Ron Webb It is complete, for it contains all the revelation sent to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the Qu'ranthen the Quran was not perfect and complete, was it? it does not contain all revelations sent to Prophet Muhammad, it contains only what was revealed to him as the Qur'an
Second : What in reciting would cause something that's unclear to become clear ? or something that's not understood to become understood
If I don't understand a verse and it's recited to me 10 times, I still won't understand it
Originally posted by Ron Webb And if you read the hadith ten times, you might still not understand that either. But that's not what we're discussing, we're discussing if the verse implies explaining or just a mere reciting Another verse on the task of the Prophet ( PBUH ) in a similar context كَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا فِيكُمْ رَسُولاً مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِنَا وَيُزَكِّيكُمْ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُم مَّا لَمْ تَكُونُواْ تَعْلَمُونَ {151}
Originally posted by Ron Webb Then what? An explanation for the explanation of the explanation? Yes, untill you reach the knowledge you're seeking No one said it's everybody's task, same as it's not everybody's task to be a doctor, engineer or fireman ....etc. وَمَا كَانَ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لِيَنفِرُواْ كَآفَّةً فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن كُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ لِّيَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِي الدِّينِ وَلِيُنذِرُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُواْ إِلَيْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَحْذَرُونَ {122}
Originally posted by Ron Webb If you don't understand something in the Quran, then by all means read the hadith, or talk to an imam or a friend or anyone else who might be able to help you; We seem to be getting close, so you agree that if we don't understand something in the Qur'an we go to hadith We Originally posted by Ron Webb but then go back to Allah's own words, the only authoritative explanation, If it was an explanation, then why would we have been going to all this
Originally posted by Ron Webb and verify your understanding there. Getting close as well This is actually what scholars do, did anyone say that we don't verify / base judgment on the Qur'an ? Third : that's not how the Prophet ( PBUH ) understood the Qur'an, nor the companions did, and surely the one who received the message is the best one to understand it , correct ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb Perhaps; but the best one to explain it is Allah Himself. True, but why do you want limit the revelation to just the Qur'an and it's words ? revelation and explanations comes in many forms When Noah ( PBUH ) built the arch it was out of revelation When Moses split the sea it was out of revelation, Revelations could come to us as words or as a person practicing it in front of us to demonstrate to us how to perform a certain practice It is for God to choose for us which form provides the best explanation words or a person performing it in front of us and this is what we believe in, the difference between us and you is that we believe Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was speaking/acting out of revelation and guidance from God, while you think/want us to believe he was putting his 'own' We believe God explained it in the form that is the best for us. Also, this doesn't answer the phrase, this is how Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) understood his task, and so did companions and those after them Are you implying they were all mistaken ? The verse above is clear that Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) was but following the revelations sent to Him in his actions 6:50 :... . I but follow what is revealed to me. ......
Originally posted by Ron Webb So much for Muhammad's commands being true for all time then. If Muhammad were alive today, how many more of his commands would he abrogate or rescind? None, for what we have now is the complete religion which God accepted for us. Also note that abrogation is not unique to Hadith, it occurs in the Qur'an as well as previous scriptures as well Also abrogation applies in the commands only, it doesn't apply to information, past events news ....etc.
unimportant to who ?
it was important to the Prophet ( PBUH ), and the companions and to all muslims that came afterward
Originally posted by Ron Webb Unimportant to Allah, or He would have put it into the Quran. And what's your evidence for this ? that ALL important things are put in the Qur'an while anything that's not in the Qur'an in unimportant ? It is as if we're trying to dictate to God where to put what is important, For us God doesn't get asked about His actions Originally posted by Ron Webb A great many things were important to the Prophet but not to me, and vice versa you're free to decide what's important to you, Me as a muslim, I want to care about anything that was important to the Prophet ( PBUH ) whether it's related to Islam or not I want to know what he liked, disliked , what he did and didn't our relation with the Prophet ( PBUH ) is not based just on following, it's based on love What matters to those you love, matters to you Originally posted by Ron Webb (e.g., he didn't need to know how a computer works, This is an assumption, do you have evidence for this ? that it wasn't revealed for Him ( PBUH ) how computers work ?I'm not saying He did or did not, but the fact that it happened after His time doesn't mean He ( PBUH ) didn't know about it We believe that He ( PBUH ) knew about events that would come after the end of the world, why wouldn't he know about events that's prior to that ? Originally posted by Ron Webb and I don't need to know how to ride a camel). Nor do I need to if I don't live somewhere where camels is a transportation method But as mentioned, that's not how we understand following the Prophet ( PBUH ), so this is not what you're debating us in
What's in prayers, fasting, zakah, hajj varies from different times and circumstances ? Originally posted by Ron Webb The traditional rules for prayers and fasting are impossible to follow north of the Arctic Circle, where the sun never sets or rises for months at a time. According to who ? Again I find you 'stating' instead of asking The state you're talking about is called in fiqh , imbalance of timings Prophet ( PBUH ) was asked explicitly about how to perform practices during such situations, and He ( PBUH) guided us on what to do
In prayers ( salat ) we read Qur'an then bow down, what might happen that cause this to be the other way around ? Originally posted by Ron Webb I have no objection to tradition. What I'm saying is that if it's not in the "complete and fully detailed" Quran, Qur'an IS complete for what we have today is what was revealed to Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the "Qur'an" it guide us to sources of anything we need Who ever said Qur'an is 'fully detailed' ? Originally posted by Ron Webb then Allah obviously doesn't care. This is another difference between us and you We base our judgment of what is important and what is not important based on revelation not on our personal judgments Originally posted by Ron Webb What might happen if it you did it the other way around? Then I would be mistaken, doing something the wrong way Originally posted by Ron Webb Do you think you'd go to Hell or something? Going to hell or heaven is not based on a single action, but rather a lifetime of action nevertheless, doing something that you 'know' is wrong, and insisting on doing deliberately the wrong way for no reason except wishes to be different is a very unfavored action, that might result in grave consequences In this case the wrong action in itself is not the problem, bur rather arrogance Arrogance is a big sin in Islam, it was the main reason iblis was taken out of heaven Originally posted by Ron Webb Is your God really that shallow? God of heaven and earth is not shallow, but doesn't God of heaven and earth deserve that I worship as God's will, not as I will ? Shouldn't I love my God enough to want to do my actions in a perfect way ? rather than just 'anyway' ?
As mentioned before, the rule to follow the messenger is a general rule If you want to apply exceptions, you need proof for that exception Originally posted by Ron Webb And as I mentioned before, it is impossible to literally "follow" a person who is long dead. Then you just answered your question that started the topic, If it is impossible to follow him, then it's impossible to act as if he's partner with God Originally posted by Ron Webb Even when he was alive, do you imagine a long line of Muslims in single file, literally "following" him around all day? Of course not. The word follower doesn't mean only someone who's literally following, it means someone who follow your traces, actions And this is precisely what the companions did
Originally posted by Ron Webb One has to read and understand it in context, and the context is his function as a messenger, delivering and following the Quran. Great, so based on what you just said He ( PBUH ) delivered the Qur'an, which instructs believers to perform prayers He ( PBUH ) followed the Qur'an and performed prayers We ( as followers ) should follow Him ( PBUH ) in performing the prayers This is precisely what we do
We think of Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) as the best leader to follow
Do you know of a better leader to follow ?
Originally posted by Ron Webb Just about anybody who is not dead. I would say you have very high level of tolerance if you're willing to be lead by just about anybody Originally posted by Ron Webb A leader needs to evaluate and respond to present circumstances. Looking 1400 years into the past is not leadership. Then look throughout Islamic history and see how muslims could always relate their lives to His life ( PBUH ) and find leadership in it
By following His teachings and applying it to matters of dispute in our times, this is how muslims understood this verse since the early days, for surely Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) wasn't present every place there was muslims Originally posted by Ron Webb That is not Muhammad judging. That is somebody else judging, informed by the past actions and judgements of Muhammad. Again, the judge has to evaluate and respond to the facts of whatever he is judging -- something that a dead man cannot do. True, this is someone else judging the "same" judgment as Prophet Muhammad ( PBUH ) did, or based on it To us this means Him ( PBUH ) judging, because this is where the ruling of this person's judging getting authority a closer example to you could be with judgments in the Qur'an, if a person goes to a judge/scholar ..etc. Ask him about an issue, which has ruling is in the Qur'an, and the judge rules with what's in the Qur'an , who's judgment is it ? the judge's own judgment, or the judgment of God as revealed to us in the Qur'an ? For this is how we see us applying the judgment of God
Muslims don't think of hadith in this broad general way, it's categorized in so many categories, ranging from authoritative to some that are not authoritive at all Originally posted by Ron Webb Rather like the Christian Bible, wouldn't you say? As mentioned before, current bible doesn't come anywhere close to even the weakest hadith
May God guide us all to the righteous path
Originally posted by Ron Webb But first, may intellect guide us to the true God. (Or not.) Totally agree, but this requires using correct intellect and correct usage of logic ![]() Originally posted by Ron Webb Salaam. Salaam Edited by Meditations - 13 October 2009 at 10:54pm |
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member
Joined: 02 November 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3352 |
![]() Posted: 13 October 2009 at 3:56pm |
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Originally posted by Meditations Originally posted by Ron Webb ] And as I mentioned before, it is impossible to literally "follow" a person who is long dead. Meditations: Then you just answered your question that started the topic, If it is impossible to follow him, then it's impossible to act as if he's partner with God. ToucheRon W: with the above remark Meditations has struck you out unless you tenaciously cling on to base plate while the stadium has begun to empty with your crab personality likes of George W., there is nothing left! The game is over! Edited by Sign*Reader - 13 October 2009 at 4:56pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com
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